Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) XLII

[Foppa2118]

I think Sgarbossa will be a 15-20g 50-55p player on the second line with a good bit of sandpaper to his game. Basically a higher scoring Downie with less crazy. Not the type of player you give up easily.

If this team is going to philosophically stay with the 3 scoring line system, the Avs are going to need a constant influx of young top 6 talent to stay under the cap. Paying 3rd liners $4m a year isn't going to be possible if the cap stays at a reasonable level.

IMO that's a really high projection for Sgarbossa. At best if he sticks on the Avs in a top six role, he'll be a 15 goal 35 point player. I also think he's more chippy than the traditional physical player with sandpaper in their game like Downie that you're alluding to.

He'll most likely have to stick as a winger too, and we haven't even seen him play that position. We don't even know how he'd react to it.

 

[henchman21]

IMO that's a really high projection for Sgarbossa. At best if he sticks on the Avs in a top six role, he'll be a 15 goal 35 point player.

He'll most likely have to stick as a winger too, and we haven't even seen him play that position. We don't even know how he'd react to it.

He played it in junior quite a bit. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him as the #3C next year.

 

[member 116861]

I'm not, when we already have 3 second pairing D, 3 young potential second pairing D and no number 1. Not to mention no other top 6 potential prospects outside of Mackinnon.

I've mentioned it before but what is the big difference between Sgarbossa and Agozzino? They both did really well in the OHL, they both did really well in their rookie years in the AHL. They're both really smart players who are chippy. Sgarbossa has a bit more talent than Agozzino but not as much as he gets credit for. Agozzino rarely gets talked about on these boards but Sgarbossa is talked about as a guaranteed top-6 forward.

Also Bigras and Siemens are probably 2-3 years away from making the big club. We need help right now, we have arguably the worst defense in the entire league. I love Elliott, he is one of my favourite players but he is not guaranteed to become a top-4 defenseman.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I've mentioned it before but what is the big difference between Sgarbossa and Agozzino? They both did really well in the OHL, they both did really well in their rookie years in the AHL. They're both really smart players who are chippy. Sgarbossa has a bit more talent than Agozzino but not as much as he gets credit for. Agozzino rarely gets talked about on these boards but Sgarbossa is talked about as a guaranteed top-6 forward.

Also Bigras and Siemens are probably 2-3 years away from making the big club. We need help right now, we have arguably the worst defense in the entire league. I love Elliott, he is one of my favourite players but he is not guaranteed to become a top-4 defenseman.

Sgarbossa is bigger, more physically mature and more skilled than Aggo but Aggo is a good player too, just not at Sgarbossas level. We don't really need help now. It would be nice to improve our team, but not with moves that will hurt our future. We aren't at the point where we are making the next big step and until then we don't need to move key future pieces for players we already have an abundance of.

I'm all for moving Sgarbossa, but not for a player like klesla. Unless we are packaging him to get a top pairing D or a top winger it's a backwards move for our future.

 

[AslanRH]

Sgarbossa isn't going to replace the role Downie plays. If they lose him, they'll look to replace him with someone else besides Sgarbossa.

They don't have to worry about replacing Tanguay for three years. Sgar will be 24 by that time, they surely won't keep him hanging around in the minors until then.

The Avs have more forward depth than most teams in the league. They also have their biggest spots at forward filled, except for maybe an elite winger. Any spot that you would hope Sgarbossa can fill in the next couple years can be addressed with the usual lesser UFA signing.

If Sgarbossa were establish himself in the NHL and on the Avs, at best it would be in a complimentary winger role similar to the one Reinprect played. And that's IF he pans out as a top six or bust prospect. With the Avs holding the rights to Duchene, MacKinnon, Landeskog, PAP, Tanguay, McGinn, and O'Reilly all for at least a few years, they just don't have a really need for that type of player.

Losing Sgarbossa for nothing, let alone for at least one year of a desperately needed defesneman, is not that big of a deal at all.

Downie: I'm not comfortable yet assuming that he resigns or that he can even stay healthy for more than 50 games. If we all assume Wilson is destined to get hurt, then the same needs to be assumed about Downie as both have been injured more than healthy the last few years.

Tanguay: There is no guarantee at this point in his career, that he can stay productive for 3 more years, and if he struggles this year, he is a legitimate buy out candidate.

ROR/Stastny: If one or both end up leaving, our depth at FWD definitely takes a huge hit and Sgar would be nice to have as a 2nd/3rd tweener who can play wing or center.

Having Sgarbossa still in the wings this season until everything sorts out seems like the smarter play. Sgarbossa can fill in for injuries in the top 9 offensively much better than our other oprions like Olver, Malone, Mitchell, and McLeod. Worse case, he will be a good chip if a deadline deal can be made.

 

[member 116861]

Sgarbossa is bigger, more physically mature and more skilled than Aggo but Aggo is a good player too, just not at Sgarbossas level. We don't really need help now. It would be nice to improve our team, but not with moves that will hurt our future. We aren't at the point where we are making the next big step and until then we don't need to move key future pieces for players we already have an abundance of.

I'm all for moving Sgarbossa, but not for a player like klesla. Unless we are packaging him to get a top pairing D or a top winger it's a backwards move for our future.

I honestly think that we are close to being a playoff team and Klesla in my opinion, would help us take that next (small) step in becoming a playoff team.

 

[henchman21]

I've mentioned it before but what is the big difference between Sgarbossa and Agozzino? They both did really well in the OHL, they both did really well in their rookie years in the AHL. They're both really smart players who are chippy. Sgarbossa has a bit more talent than Agozzino but not as much as he gets credit for. Agozzino rarely gets talked about on these boards but Sgarbossa is talked about as a guaranteed top-6 forward.

Sgarbossa, while not filled out, has a better more projectable frame. Sgarbossa has better hockey sense and a better shot (even if he rarely seems to use it). I would say their vision and passing abilities are pretty much equal, maybe slight edge to Sgarbossa. Agozzino is a better skater and plays a bit more of a high-energy rough and tumble game. Agozzino is probably a harder worker as well.

The biggest difference is probably in age, Agozzino is a year and a half older and thus has a year and a half more development. Even with that advantage, Sgarbossa is ahead of him and has a bit more of a toolbox to work with.

Agozzino screams to me as an AHL superstar, but the type that can never fully transition to the NHL. I could see him in an Olver type role in the near future.

 

[Foppa2118]

You seriously have not seen Sgarbossa play enough. His future role is that of Downie, and he is not a top 6 or bust player. He will be useful on a 3rd line, even if they Avs don't stick to this system. As for Tanguay, he could regress at any point. If he slips next year to a 30 point player, the Avs will be looking to replace him on the 2nd line very quickly. This doesn't even take into account the possibility of losing one of Stastny or ROR by next season.

As it sits right now, the odds of losing two of the current top 9 forwards are pretty strong. There needs to be replacement players available in the prospect pool.

We must just view him differently. I've seen plenty of Sgarbossa both in the NHL and AHL. He's not Downie. He doesn't have a big physical game. He plays a chippy and at times gritty game, but I would never categorize it as a "physical game" the way Downie or someone else plays.

He's an offensive player, and he isn't that good defensively. If he's really going to stick in the NHL it will be in a top six offensive role. If not he'll be that guy that bounces around the league from team to team, and doesn't have that long of a career because he's not a natural fit for a bottom six role. He's just not good enough defensively, big enough, or physical enough. He'll have to really concentrate on becoming a niche player and constantly play at a high level in his role, because he'll always be fighting for a contract.

As for him replacing Tanguay or whoever. Why is he the only player in the world that could do that? All they have to do is sign one UFA forward in an offseason and it's taken care of. They don't even have room to do more than that.

I'd argue that every team is in need of young talented forward prospects, and he's essentially our only one. Injuries and trades will have us needing him sooner rather than later.

You're right that he isn't can't miss, but he's the best we've got. A rebuilding team can't afford to trade away their already thin prospect pool for rentals.

He's not the only one. They're just not as flashy.

Why? I think that's exactly who they will replace him with. A young cheap talented player who's already in our system waiting for his chance. Wouldn't that be better than signing somebody else for an overpayment to play on the 3rd line?

No because that complimentary 2nd/3rd line winger role isn't one that gets overpaid all the time. You can quite often get good value on your money for those types of players because they're one of the most prevalent types of roles.

That's why it's not that big of a deal to lose him. If they didn't have so many young forwards already on the team that will for sure be better players than him, they would want to keep a player like him just to be safe. As it is it should be a no brainer to trade a player from a position of strength for a position of weakness.

Expecting to be able to make some kind of home run steal of a trade that's a better scenario than that is just unrealistic. If they're holding out for that type of scenario they're making a huge mistake.

 

[bromando]

It's not silly at all to trade for a player that can help you, and give up a player you don't need, and isn't going to be elite anyway.

What's silly is to think you can get better without making these kind of trades.

Trading Sgarbossa doesn't even come close to destroy the Avs depth at forward. It barely even makes a dent. Whatever you think Sgarbossa will become, you can find that in any UFA market, and it won't cost you that much.

Yes it does destroy our depth. We have no other players, unless Hishon can stay healthy, who have the upside of Sgarbossa. So it completely wipes out any offensive depth we have. I think the Klesla trade would make us better, in the VERY short term. But it would hurt our prospect pool and we aren't winning the cup this year or the next. Trading away prospects for one year rentals is a risky tactic. Especially when you consider the cap. I don't know what you're talking about when you say we would replace Downie with someone else. That's not how it works with this cap situation. Teams have to build from within to remain competitive because it's just not affordable to build from the UFA market (cough Maple Leafs cough cough Clarkson....). Teams in rebuild don't trade for rentals, it doesn't make sense.

Consider why Pheonix would do this trade. They give up a player who for all they know might play 30 games this season and leave in UFA for a top 6 potential prospect. Also, I could definitely see Sgarbossa playing 3rd line with his tenacity. He's got the grit to do it even if he is undersized.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I honestly think that we are close to being a playoff team and Klesla in my opinion, would help us take that next (small) step in becoming a playoff team.

You may be right, but I just think it would be a completely poor move to give up our best offensive prospect for 1 year of Rusty Klesla.

 

[member 116861]

Good debate guys, I'm going to make a thread on the trade forum to see the opinions of Coyotes fans and other teams fans.

 

[Foppa2118]

He played it in junior quite a bit. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him as the #3C next year.

How much is quite a bit? Because he was listed as a center his draft year, referred to as a center for both Sudbury and Saginaw, and as far as I know, he's only played center his pro career the last couple years.

Is it more like the occasional shift at wing, or being bumped there for short periods because there were better players at center?

Sgarbossa, while not filled out, has a better more projectable frame. Sgarbossa has better hockey sense and a better shot (even if he rarely seems to use it). I would say their vision and passing abilities are pretty much equal, maybe slight edge to Sgarbossa. Agozzino is a better skater and plays a bit more of a high-energy rough and tumble game. Agozzino is probably a harder worker as well.

The biggest difference is probably in age, Agozzino is a year and a half older and thus has a year and a half more development. Even with that advantage, Sgarbossa is ahead of him and has a bit more of a toolbox to work with.

And Hishon's vision and passing skills are better than Sgarbossa's. His groin injury doesn't mean his career's over.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

No because that complimentary 2nd/3rd line winger role isn't one that gets overpaid all the time. You can quite often get good value on your money for those types of players because they're one of the most prevalent types of roles.

If you were correct that would mean signing Downie wouldn't be an issue. The fact is these 2nd/3rd line wingers are earning as much as UFA's as a lot of top line restricted free agents are getting.

I'm willing to bet finding a UFA as good as Sgarbossa will be at the end of next year will cost 2 million dollars per year more than Sgarbo.

He's proven at every level that he's a great hockey player. His linemates were Bordeleau/Olver/Mcleod and Hejduk when he got his 4-5 minutes a night in the NHL last year yet he still looked good enough to be there. He was in the top 20 in AHL points for the first 2 months of the season last year. That was a league that had players like Hall, RNH, Eberle, Skinner, Couturier and Schenn.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Good debate guys, I'm going to make a thread on the trade forum to see the opinions of Coyotes fans and other teams fans.

I already had proposed this in one of their threads awhile back, I think that's why it was brought up again.

 

[Foppa2118]

Good debate guys, I'm going to make a thread on the trade forum to see the opinions of Coyotes fans and other teams fans.

They already had one basically discussing the same thing. RT started it a while ago, that's where I got the idea from in my post a few pages back.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

I don't have any problem dealing Sgabossa for an upgrade on defense, but Klesla, much like Wilson, has issues staying healthy. He hasn't playe more than 65 games since 2007.

He's a good defenseman, but when he inevitably goes down, we're in the same position.

 

[member 116861]

I already had proposed this in one of their threads awhile back, I think that's why it was brought up again.

They already had one basically discussing the same thing. RT started it a while ago, that's where I got the idea from in my post a few pages back.

Alright, I'll leave it then.

 

[Foppa2118]

I don't have any problem dealing Sgabossa for an upgrade on defense, but Klesla, much like Wilson, has issues staying healthy. He hasn't playe more than 65 games since 2007.

He's a good defenseman, but when he inevitably goes down, we're in the same position.

But at least they have two injury prone guys rather than just the one, and Klesla is much better than Wilson when he is healthy.

Plus his left/right versatility and leadership ability are kind of underrated in terms of re-signing him and keeping him around.

 

[henchman21]

How much is quite a bit? Because he was listed as a center his draft year, referred to as a center for both Sudbury and Saginaw, and as far as I know, he's only played center his pro career the last couple years.

Is it more like the occasional shift at wing, or being bumped there for short periods because there were better players at center?



And Hishon's vision and passing skills are better than Sgarbossa's. His groin injury doesn't mean his career's over.

His last season in Sudbury he was playing 25+ minutes a game a lot of times and being double shifted frequently. With that he would alternate between center and wing on the shifts. With Saginaw he mostly played center, didn't see much time at wing that I can recall. With Barrie he alternated between #3C and #2LW quite a bit. I don't think I saw more than a few shifts last year with Lake Erie that he was on the wing.

Hishon is a much more talented player, but has yet to prove he can stay healthy for any stretch of time. He has not played a full season without injury since 08-09 and only played over 36 games once since then. Granted most of that was concussion related, but there are other injuries in there as well. He has to find a way to stay healthy.

As other people have stated on here, it isn't so much about trading Sgarbossa, but who we are trading him for. If you package Sgarbossa + Wilson + to get a young #3 who has a higher upside, I have absolutely no problem with that deal. But to give him up for a 31 year old physical defensemen (which those types of players normally fall off quickly) that is already injury prone is just a bad idea.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Sorry to bash Lonewolfe because I usually agree with everything you say, but Klesla is definitely not what our defense needs most. We need a left handed top pairing guy for EJ which Rusty is not. With that partner we would have Hejda as our shutdown 2nd pairing leftie with Barrie, and Wilson would be a great 3rd pairing guy to partner with Elliott.

We already have enough guys to make two quality 2/3 pairings, we're just lacking that top pairing guy so we have to use wilson to fill in. If Klesla came over he would still be that 2nd pairing guy that fills in on the first. There is no need to have him at this point in time, especially when we have Siemens who could be at Klesla's level in a year.

No problem at all. But I think you're wrong on what you think he can do. I think Klesla could play top pairing minutes while letting EJ do his own thing and in a responsible manner. He's a steady defensive presence, probably even a bit better than Hejda. We're not going to be acquiring a top pairing guy anytime soon.

Klesla at worst would be another anchor for Elliott or Barrie to grow with. Someone we would keep past Hejda as the veteran shutdown guy.

Meanwhile, as much as I like Sgarbossa, he's not providing us anything we don't already have in forward depth. And unless we were to groom him another two years with NHL time sprinkled in and he did something with that time other than P/G AHL experience, then we'll not be losing value on him either.

We had another average sized skilled offensive center by the name of TJ Hensick once upon a time, he lit up the AHL and was mediocre in the NHL. While I'm not saying Sgarbossa will do that, I'm just trying to put perspective on it.

Throw in a conditional on Klesla not resigning and I'm good with it. We have the depth to cover his loss and I'm not sure I see a better trade coming along anytime soon.

 

[bromando]

I don't have any problem dealing Sgabossa for an upgrade on defense, but Klesla, much like Wilson, has issues staying healthy. He hasn't playe more than 65 games since 2007.

He's a good defenseman, but when he inevitably goes down, we're in the same position.

Exactly. Maybe I've been too wordy to get this across but this is how I feel. We'd be in the same position....without our top offensive prospect (not including Mack). And next year, after we maybe squeeked into the playoffs but maybe didn't, we'd be without Klesla and our top offensive prospect.

 

[Foppa2118]

If you were correct that would mean signing Downie wouldn't be an issue. The fact is these 2nd/3rd line wingers are earning as much as UFA's as a lot of top line restricted free agents are getting.

I'm willing to bet finding a UFA as good as Sgarbossa will be at the end of next year will cost 2 million dollars per year more than Sgarbo.

He's proven at every level that he's a great hockey player. His linemates were Bordeleau/Olver/Mcleod and Hejduk when he got his 4-5 minutes a night in the NHL last year yet he still looked good enough to be there. He was in the top 20 in AHL points for the first 2 months of the season last year. That was a league that had players like Hall, RNH, Eberle, Skinner, Couturier and Schenn.

Downie is a different type of player, he brings more to the table. That's why I disagreed with the comparison between the two. In my eyes, Sgarbossa is just a chippy offensive player.

Also, the complimentary winger role that I think Sgarbossa would fill on this stacked at forward Avalanche team can be found for $2M or under nearly every UFA period.

I think people are expecting him to be this 60+ point player. I don't see him being that player on this team. Maybe on another team with less forwards to compete with for ice time and PP time, and a consistent role as a 2nd line center, but not as a 2nd or 3rd line winger on the Avs.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

No problem at all. But I think you're wrong on what you think he can do. I think Klesla could play top pairing minutes while letting EJ do his own thing and in a responsible manner. He's a steady defensive presence, probably even a bit better than Hejda. We're not going to be acquiring a top pairing guy anytime soon.

Klesla at worst would be another anchor for Elliott or Barrie to grow with. Someone we would keep past Hejda as the veteran shutdown guy.

Meanwhile, as much as I like Sgarbossa, he's not providing us anything we don't already have in forward depth. And unless we were to groom him another two years with NHL time sprinkled in and he did something with that time other than P/G AHL experience, then we'll not be losing value on him either.

We had another average sized skilled offensive center by the name of TJ Hensick once upon a time, he lit up the AHL and was mediocre in the NHL. While I'm not saying Sgarbossa will do that, I'm just trying to put perspective on it.

Throw in a conditional on Klesla not resigning and I'm good with it. We have the depth to cover his loss and I'm not sure I see a better trade coming along anytime soon.

Klesla very well could play top pairing minutes and anchor for EJ, but so could Hejda, so could anybody else on our defensive group. They all could but none of them should. We don't need to bring in any more players to play out of their element. We have enough of them already. If we're going to bring in a guy to play top pairing minutes, he should be a top pairing guy. Klesla isn't a top pairng guy.

I don't know why you or anybody else would think we aren't bringing it a top pairing guy. We have 4 centres who are (or in a year or two) all 1st line Centres. If you guys don't think one of those will be used to bring back a top pair guy you completely underestimate our staff. The team isn't ran by clowns who think any small improvement will get us a stanley cup. They are going to make moves for the pieces we need. Pieces like a top pairing defenseman. If it takes an addition of Sgarbossa to be added to somebody like ROR to get our guy, then it's time to make a move.

edit: I'd also like to add, even if you think Sgarbossa isn't going to be much in the NHL you have to understand he's our best forward prospect. So if he's not going to be much and we trade him away for one year of a second pairing D which might help us finish 9th instead of 10th, imagine how bad our prospect pool will look then. We have a great young core of players who have already made it and that will get us to where we hope to be in the future, but in reality there's injuries and cold streaks where you still need to have second options and prospects that can do their best to fill in. You need Mike Sgarbossa's behind you 2 years from now much more than you need a player who walked away in Rusty Klesla.

 

[Foppa2118]

His last season in Sudbury he was playing 25+ minutes a game a lot of times and being double shifted frequently. With that he would alternate between center and wing on the shifts. With Saginaw he mostly played center, didn't see much time at wing that I can recall. With Barrie he alternated between #3C and #2LW quite a bit. I don't think I saw more than a few shifts last year with Lake Erie that he was on the wing.

Ok so from that assessment, can we both agree that it's still very much uncertain how he would transition to the wing at the NHL level? It sounds like the double shifts within a game included only a few shifts at wing, and his time with Barrie was 4-5 years ago as a young pup.

Hishon is a much more talented player, but has yet to prove he can stay healthy for any stretch of time. He has not played a full season without injury since 08-09 and only played over 36 games once since then. Granted most of that was concussion related, but there are other injuries in there as well. He has to find a way to stay healthy.

Absolutely he's a risk to even make it as a pro hockey player at any level. However, with the Avs depth at forward, and having a guy like Hishon there as a better player than Sgarbossa, it makes it that much easier to let him go.

As other people have stated on here, it isn't so much about trading Sgarbossa, but who we are trading him for. If you package Sgarbossa + Wilson + to get a young #3 who has a higher upside, I have absolutely no problem with that deal. But to give him up for a 31 year old physical defensemen (which those types of players normally fall off quickly) that is already injury prone is just a bad idea.

I think it's both. That's why a lot of the discussion revolves around people saying we can't give up a player like Sgarbossa, or referring to keeping the Avs prospects.

Of course it's better to package Sgarbossa for a better defenseman who might stick around longer, but the Avs shouldn't be nit picking waiting for a home run trade like that. The fact is they need a couple defenseman. Getting Klesla is relatively cheap, and they can still look for that better defenseman too.

It is very much about Sgarbossa in my eyes, because from what I can tell the difference is how replaceable I view him as. That's why I'm not that concerned with giving him up for one year of Klesla, which doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Klesla very well could play top pairing minutes and anchor for EJ, but so could Hejda, so could anybody else on our defensive group. They all could but none of them should. We don't need to bring in any more players to play out of their element. We have enough of them already. If we're going to bring in a guy to play top pairing minutes, he should be a top pairing guy. Klesla isn't a top pairng guy.

I don't know why you or anybody else would think we aren't bringing it a top pairing guy. We have 4 centres who are (or in a year or two) all 1st line Centres. If you guys don't think one of those will be used to bring back a top pair guy you completely underestimate our staff. The team isn't ran by clowns who think any small improvement will get us a stanley cup. They are going to make moves for the pieces we need. Pieces like a top pairing defenseman. If it takes an addition of Sgarbossa to be added to somebody like ROR to get our guy, then it's time to make a move.

Look around the league and point out the number of top pairing defenders you think even could be moved. Then consider their team's needs. Next consider the player's relative age, salary and fit to our team.

The list is pretty small. Moving O'Reilly + Sgarbossa for Phaneuf, Giordano, etc. Bad idea. I think our team is better off keeping Staz and ROR... waiting awhile for the right top pairing guy to hit the market when more of our prospects have matured and we're a legit threat and getting by on a group of young defenders and top four guys. NJD got to the finals with a hot goalie a bunch of 2nd pairing guys. Boston got to the finals and also won the cup with a hot goalie and one top pairing defender.

I just don't see who we could reasonably acquire that would make a trade of Sgarbossa for Klesla not look decent.