Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LV

[henchman21]

The exception to that being the penalty kill. I believe it's very valuable to have the lower line/pairing guys be able to effectively kill penalties, so the higher line/pairing guys don't have to get worn out doing it.

Absolutely a fair point. PK guys are fairly easy to find for those duties... see Cliche and Guenin.

I can't disagree more.

Mitchell is an average 3rd line center, it's simply giving him too much credit to say otherwise. Talbot is a good defensive winger and PKer that provides very little offense, and isn't that quick. McLeod is an ok defensive winger that provides even less offense. Cliche is a pretty good 4th line defensive center that has one career NHL goal. Bordy is better than most goons offensively and defensively, but is still worse than all the previous guys. Malone is a rookie that hasn't been able to stick in the NHL and has one NHL goal, and Carey has never played an NHL game before.

That is a very poor bottom six to rely on in the playoffs.

This is probably pointless... but oh well I have some time.

Solid=Average

Everything that you said there points out it is an average bottom 6. There will be some better and some worse.

There are 30 teams in the league, so by some reasoning the 181-270 ranked forwards in the league are your 3rd line players. The 181st ranked forward scorer (in 11-12) that played 82 games was Brandon Sutter with 32 points. The 270th ranked was Craig Adams with 18. The median at 225 was Mikkel Bodker at 24. This year Mitchell is the 203rd forward (with 23 points) and Talbot is 216th (with 21 points). They are above the median 3rd liners, or above average offensively. The third line is just supposed to add a mild amount of offense with good defense. A McLeod/whoever-Mitchell-Talbot line can do that. I will admit that McLeod needs to step up though. He will be given a lot more minutes and will need to be a more effective player than he has this year.\

Anything a 4th line contributes offensively is supposed to just be extra, they are not supposed to be goal scorers. That is why their goal scoring totals don't matter in the least. Just play solid defense and bring a physical element. A Malone/Carey-Cliche-Bordy line can do that.

Then when it comes to PK ability, Mitchell, Talbot, Cliche, and McLeod have proven they can do a good job. Malone/Carey have the ability, but have yet to prove it. So at least two units of forwards can be formed to rest the top players.

 

[ABasin]

Absolutely a fair point. PK guys are fairly easy to find for those duties... see Cliche and Guenin.

Well, yes and no. Those are two pretty good PK finds in this respect this season, but I'm not so sure I'd label it as 'easy'. This season, the Avs' 3 top PK IT/game forwards are Cliche, Talbot, Mitchell - all 3 on the depth lines (McLeod's 4th). Last season, the Avs' 3 top PK minute forwards were Duchene, Stastny, Landeskog - all 3 on the top lines.

I prefer this season's approach to last season's.

 

[henchman21]

Well, yes and no. Those are two pretty good PK finds in this respect this season, but I'm not so sure I'd label it as 'easy'. This season, the Avs' 3 top PK IT/game forwards are Cliche, Talbot, Mitchell - all 3 on the depth lines (McLeod's 4th). Last season, the Avs' 3 top PK minute forwards were Duchene, Stastny, Landeskog - all 3 on the top lines.

I prefer this season's approach to last season's.

I wonder why that is....

 

[ABasin]

This is probably pointless... but oh well I have some time.

Solid=Average

Everything that you said there points out it is an average bottom 6. There will be some better and some worse.

There are 30 teams in the league, so by some reasoning the 181-270 ranked forwards in the league are your 3rd line players. The 181st ranked forward scorer (in 11-12) that played 82 games was Brandon Sutter with 32 points. The 270th ranked was Craig Adams with 18. The median at 225 was Mikkel Bodker at 24. This year Mitchell is the 203rd forward (with 23 points) and Talbot is 216th (with 21 points). They are above the median 3rd liners, or above average offensively. The third line is just supposed to add a mild amount of offense with good defense. A McLeod/whoever-Mitchell-Talbot line can do that. I will admit that McLeod needs to step up though. He will be given a lot more minutes and will need to be a more effective player than he has this year.\

Anything a 4th line contributes offensively is supposed to just be extra, they are not supposed to be goal scorers. That is why their goal scoring totals don't matter in the least. Just play solid defense and bring a physical element. A Malone/Carey-Cliche-Bordy line can do that.

Then when it comes to PK ability, Mitchell, Talbot, Cliche, and McLeod have proven they can do a good job. Malone/Carey have the ability, but have yet to prove it. So at least two units of forwards can be formed to rest the top players.

I also think this 3rd/4th line scoring thing has a lot to do with what your first two lines look like. I mean, you can live with a lot less offense from the 3rd/4th lines if your first two lines are what Chicago or Pittsburgh has. You probably can't live with it if your first two lines are what Nashville or Calgary has. Colorado's first two lines (when healthy) can be pretty explosive.

 

[betweenthepipes]

Chris Kelly might be available at the draft - much better than Mitchell.

 

[Avs_19]

No surprise but it looks like Giguere is done after this season.

Giguere, while noting that it's "not the time" to discuss retirement, said he is "leaning" that way. And the Avs confirmed they are confident Berra will sign a multi-year extension to be Semyon Varlamov's backup for next season and beyond.

"We're presently working on signing him," Roy said, adding that he and vice president Joe Sakic would not have given up a second-round draft pick if they knew Berra would test free agency.

Giguere is fine with the Avalanche looking ahead without him, because he is looking in the same direction.

"Not 100 percent sure but definitely leaning that way," he said of retirement."You have to be honest with yourself, and (the end of the season) might be the time. But I don't want to talk about that right now. It's not the time or place."

http://www.denverpost.com/avalanche/ci_25321055/j-s-giguere-hints-retiring-reto-berra-colorado-avalanche?source=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[Foppa2118]

Absolutely a fair point. PK guys are fairly easy to find for those duties... see Cliche and Guenin.



This is probably pointless... but oh well I have some time.

Solid=Average

Everything that you said there points out it is an average bottom 6. There will be some better and some worse.

There are 30 teams in the league, so by some reasoning the 181-270 ranked forwards in the league are your 3rd line players. The 181st ranked forward scorer (in 11-12) that played 82 games was Brandon Sutter with 32 points. The 270th ranked was Craig Adams with 18. The median at 225 was Mikkel Bodker at 24. This year Mitchell is the 203rd forward (with 23 points) and Talbot is 216th (with 21 points). They are above the median 3rd liners, or above average offensively. The third line is just supposed to add a mild amount of offense with good defense. A McLeod/whoever-Mitchell-Talbot line can do that. I will admit that McLeod needs to step up though. He will be given a lot more minutes and will need to be a more effective player than he has this year.\

Anything a 4th line contributes offensively is supposed to just be extra, they are not supposed to be goal scorers. That is why their goal scoring totals don't matter in the least. Just play solid defense and bring a physical element. A Malone/Carey-Cliche-Bordy line can do that.

Then when it comes to PK ability, Mitchell, Talbot, Cliche, and McLeod have proven they can do a good job. Malone/Carey have the ability, but have yet to prove it. So at least two units of forwards can be formed to rest the top players.

Firstly, PK ability isn't the issue. 5 on 5 play is. When the checking gets tight, and your top lines are getting shut down, you need your 3rd line to contribute with playoff capable two way play.

We're not at the starting point of the regular season, we're talking about the playoffs, so here's the current playoff teams bottom 6 lineups.

Out of the 22 other teams in playoff contention below, I only see about four that the Avs might be on par with their bottom six, and that's debatable. The Nucks (68pts), TB (75pts), Stars (72pts), and Minny (76pts). None of which are the type of team the Avs are this year with 89 pts.

Avs

Cody McLeod - John Mitchell - Max Talbot
Brad Malone - MA Cliche - Patrick Bordeleau

Blues

Brendan Morrow - Derek Roy - Steve Ott
Magnus Paajarvi - Maxim Lapierre - Ryan Reeves

Hawks

Brian Bickell - Peter Regin - Kris Versteeg
Brandon Bollig - Markus Kruger - Ben Smith

Ducks

Dan Winnik - Saku Koivu - Andrew Cogliano
Patrick Maroon - Rickard Rakell - Teemu Selanne

Kings

Dwight King - Jared Stoll - Dustin Brown
Kyle Clifford - Trevor Lewis - Tanner Pearson

SJ

Raffi Torres - James Sheppard - Tommy Wingels
Tyler Kennedy - Andrew Desjardins - Adam Burish

PHX

Brandon McMillan - Mike Ribeiro - Shane Doan
Lauri Korpikoski - Jeff Halpern - Kyle Chipchura

Minny

Matt Cooke - Kyle Brodziak - Nino Niederreiter
Dany Heatley - Erik Haula - Cody McCormick

Dallas

Antoine Roussel - Vernon Fiddler - Alex Chiasson
Ray Whitney - Shawn Horcoff - Chris Mueller

Nucks

Tom Sestito - Shawn Matthias - David Booth
Darren Archibald - Jordan Schroeder - Zac Dalpe

Jets

Dustin Byfuglien - Jim Slater - Setoguchi/Frolik/Wheeler
Eric Tangradi - John Albert - Anthony Peluso
Bruins

Boston

Loui Eriksson - Chris Kelly - Carl Soderberg
Jordan Caron - Gregory Campbell - Shawn Thornton

Leafs

Mason Raymond - Dave Bolland - David Clarkson
Peter Holland Jay McClement - Troy Bodie

Habs

Alex Galchenyuk - Lars Eller - Danny Briere
Brandon Prust - Ryan White - Travis Moen

Pens

Taylor Pyatt - Brandon Sutter - Joe Vitale
Tanner Glass - Marcel Goc - Craig Adams

Rangers

Benoit Pouliot - Derick Brassard - Mats Zuccarello
Brian Boyle - Dominic Moore - Dan Carcillo

Flyers

Steve Downie - Sean Couturier - Matt Read
Zac Rinaldo - Adam Hall - Michael Raffl

TB

J.T. Brown - Tyler Johnson - Richard Panik
Keith Aulie - Nate Thompson - Tom Pyatt

CBJ

R.J. Umberger - Artem Anisimov - Corey Tropp
Derek MacKenzie - Mark Letestu - Blake Comeau

Wings

Justin Abdelkader - Cory Emmerton - Daniel Alfredsson
Drew Miller - Luke Glendening - Todd Bertuzzi

Sens

Colin Greening - Zack Smith - Chris Neil
Matt Kassian - Mika Zibanejad - Erik Condra

Caps

Jason Chimera - Eric Fehr - Joel Ward
Evgeny Kuznetsov - Jay Beagle - Tom Wilson

Devils

Damien Brunner - Dainius Zubrus - Michael Ryder
Ryan Carter - Stephen Gionta - Steve Bernier

 

[shadow1]

I hope the Avs re-sign Mitchell. He's played on every line, in every situation since joining the Avs.

Say what you want about some of his tendencies, but not many guys who play primarily on the fourth line can jump between Landeskog and MacKinnon in a pinch and be productive.

 

[Avs71]

Just for fun, this thread has some entertainment value:

All Purpose EJ Thread *Read Mod Warning #1 and #34

^What a dark time that was.

 

[henchman21]

Just for fun, this thread has some entertainment value:

All Purpose EJ Thread *Read Mod Warning #1 and #34

^What a dark time that was.

I like my posts in that thread.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I've read back a lot of threads from the last few years, the vibe is such a stark contrast. Definitely worth a trip down memory lane.

 

[Avs_19]

The EJ trade thread is a good one. A few people went crazy in that one.

The 2010 draft thread was fun as well after they picked Hishon. We lost our **** as soon as that was announced.

 

[henchman21]

The EJ trade thread is a good one. A few people went crazy in that one.

The 2010 draft thread was fun as well after they picked Hishon. We lost our **** as soon as that was announced.

I can only imagine (going to have to search that later). I bet it is a big fight between the asset management people and the people that understood the need to bring in a potential #1D.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

The EJ trade thread is a good one. A few people went crazy in that one.

The 2010 draft thread was fun as well after they picked Hishon. We lost our **** as soon as that was announced.

The Hishon pick was bad.. people were pretty much split 50/50 with the EJ trade. The worst melt down ive seen on here was the varly trade and Nigel willams

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

The Hishon pick was bad.. people were pretty much split 50/50 with the EJ trade. The worst melt down ive seen on here was the varly trade and Nigel willams

95% of the fans of the Avs and of the rest of the posters here thought we lost that Varly trade. Pretty crazy 3 years later Varly is setting a career high in season wins and looking at getting his first Vezina Trophy.

 

[JWK]

According to HF, we lost every trade we made.

 

[CoachBadkitten]

According to HF, we lost every trade we made.

pretty much. Except this,

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1455429

it's great to see how happy we were.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Haha. I was at Coors Field, which has the worst service ever and saw that deal come down on twitter. I was happy but horrified it had something to do with our first overall pick. Nothing was on the DP for hours and I could barely get my phone to load anything. Good times!

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

pretty much. Except this,

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1455429

it's great to see how happy we were.

But then everyone got pissed off thanks to the Talbot and Berra trades. In those threads I remember some fans saying that Roy/Sakic have yet to win a trade and we're awful at it.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

95% of the fans of the Avs and of the rest of the posters here thought we lost that Varly trade. Pretty crazy 3 years later Varly is setting a career high in season wins and looking at getting his first Vezina Trophy.

So true.

Felt like I was on an island back when that trade happened.

From day 1 I said that it was a fair trade for the Avs. The Caps/General fans that claimed the Avs had just given awa Yakupov/Top 5 Pick/etc didnt understand the situation that had occured for the Avs that year. After the Forsberg debacle, the crazy number of injuries, etc.

Now that trade is looking like an outright steal.

Feelsgood.jpg


Same thing with the EJ trade. From day 1 with that trade I was stoked. EJ was a big name player and was only what? 22 years old when we traded for him. History repeats itself, and its pretty obvious now and even back then, that Big Dmen like EJ have historically taken a lot longer to develop into star Dmen. Look at Chara and Pronger as prime examples of that. Add in the fact that EJ had missed a full year of crucial development, and I thought it was fairly obvious that EJ had a tonne of developing left to do still. The fact that he was already a solid #2/3 guy at 22 years old was to me a sign that he had/still has some elite potential.


Both trades I was on board with from day 1, and now they are really starting to work out in our favor.


The only thing about those 2 trades that I feel I was wrong on was Chris Stewart. I can remember being really pissed about trading him despite the approval of getting EJ. I figured for sure Stewart would become a perennial 30-40 goal, 65-70 point player with STL, and I was dissapointed that we had lost basically our own Lucic. Turns out I was completely wrong about what kind of player he would be. I think Hitchcock had a lot to do with that in a negative way.

 

[Ivan13]

So true.

Felt like I was on an island back when that trade happened.

From day 1 I said that it was a fair trade for the Avs. The Caps/General fans that claimed the Avs had just given awa Yakupov/Top 5 Pick/etc didnt understand the situation that had occured for the Avs that year. After the Forsberg debacle, the crazy number of injuries, etc.

Now that trade is looking like an outright steal.

Feelsgood.jpg


Same thing with the EJ trade. From day 1 with that trade I was stoked. EJ was a big name player and was only what? 22 years old when we traded for him. History repeats itself, and its pretty obvious now and even back then, that Big Dmen like EJ have historically taken a lot longer to develop into star Dmen. Look at Chara and Pronger as prime examples of that. Add in the fact that EJ had missed a full year of crucial development, and I thought it was fairly obvious that EJ had a tonne of developing left to do still. The fact that he was already a solid #2/3 guy at 22 years old was to me a sign that he had/still has some elite potential.


Both trades I was on board with from day 1, and now they are really starting to work out in our favor.


The only thing about those 2 trades that I feel I was wrong on was Chris Stewart. I can remember being really pissed about trading him despite the approval of getting EJ. I figured for sure Stewart would become a perennial 30-40 goal, 65-70 point player with STL, and I was dissapointed that we had lost basically our own Lucic. Turns out I was completely wrong about what kind of player he would be. I think Hitchcock had a lot to do with that in a negative way.

Stewart is a giant waste of talent, it's his own laziness that's his biggest issue not Hitchcock.

Anyway I remember a certain poster here raving about Varlamov while the majority of us were losing our collective minds, he was also saying he would be a Vezina candidate in the future, his username was Duchene2Mueller or something similar, I wonder where that guy went?

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Stewart is a giant waste of talent, it's his own laziness that's his biggest issue not Hitchcock.

Anyway I remember a certain poster here raving about Varlamov while the majority of us were losing our collective minds, he was also saying he would be a Vezina candidate in the future, his username was Duchene2Mueller or something similar, I wonder where that guy went?

His work ethic was definitely an issue. But I dont really recall it ever being much of an issue in Colorado. I mean he certainly wasnt ROR or anything, but I thought he gave a decent effort while in Colorado.


The work ethic issues really came into question when he started playing under Hitchock. Now, were they issues all along that just werent brought up or noticed in Denver? Maybe, but I also think Stewart wasn't a fan of Hitch's coaching style, and that also played a role. I dont really think either of them particularly like one another.


And yea, I remember I wasnt alone on these boards regarding my opinion of the Varly trade. But there wasnt many of us. D2M had an extreme opinion about the Vezina candidacy. Certainly glad those opinions came true though. What a great trade thats looking like for us.

One of many Sherman trades/acquisitions that a lot of people strongly questioned at first, but have proven to be fantastic moves.

 

[henchman21]

I have said this many times in the past, but this management group's theory (past and present as they have all been Lacroix trained or operated) is that you have a list of targets, and you pay whatever it takes to get those players. We have seen it time and time again. It is also a big reason the Avs 'lose' every trade from an asset management perspective (they honestly don't seem to care about that). Whenever we do get another defensemen (guessing at the draft), people are going to be upset at what we paid, but it will more than likely work out.

Stewart was lazy here, but it wasn't a huge detriment until the last few weeks of his tenure. There were other issues that led him to getting out of favor, and really the Avs just had a deal that they couldn't pass up. Now if Stewart was a harder worker, he would be a top 15 forward in the league and a 40-40 player on a consistent basis. The talent is obviously there.

 

[Ivan13]

His work ethic was definitely an issue. But I dont really recall it ever being much of an issue in Colorado. I mean he certainly wasnt ROR or anything, but I thought he gave a decent effort while in Colorado.


The work ethic issues really came into question when he started playing under Hitchock. Now, were they issues all along that just werent brought up or noticed in Denver? Maybe, but I also think Stewart wasn't a fan of Hitch's coaching style, and that also played a role. I dont really think either of them particularly like one another.


And yea, I remember I wasnt alone on these boards regarding my opinion of the Varly trade. But there wasnt many of us. D2M had an extreme opinion about the Vezina candidacy. Certainly glad those opinions came true though. What a great trade thats looking like for us.

One of many Sherman trades/acquisitions that a lot of people strongly questioned at first, but have proven to be fantastic moves.

He didn't, he had Stastny do all the heavy lifting, he scored majority of his goals off the rush and he was quite the cherry picker. I was really happy when they got rid of him.

 

[Avs71]

I have said this many times in the past, but this management group's theory (past and present as they have all been Lacroix trained or operated) is that you have a list of targets, and you pay whatever it takes to get those players. We have seen it time and time again. It is also a big reason the Avs 'lose' every trade from an asset management perspective (they honestly don't seem to care about that). Whenever we do get another defensemen (guessing at the draft), people are going to be upset at what we paid, but it will more than likely work out.

I think a lot of it has to do with the players they targeted, not so much what they paid. The Avs have two major trades, and both players seemed like they had potential to be top players at their respective positions. You have to pay out the nose for potential, and the Avs acquired it in spades. I wouldn't say it's so much bad asset management as it is paying a premium for an undeveloped player (which any team would have to do). The Avs maybe payed the price of what the player would be once they reached their potential, but even that is arguable.

Stewart was essentially a cap dump for the Blues. McClement walked for the Avs. At the end of the day that pretty much leaves EJ+2nd for Shattenkirk+1st. Avs take that trade and run all day everyday. (When you factor in how Rattie and Siemens look, the trade looks a lot more balanced though because the spread between those two prospects isn't 20 spots in a draft.)

I would bet the Oilers would give their 1st+another team's 2nd next year for Varly. Other team's around the league in need of a goalie would have payed that price too now that they know what Varly is capable of. For comparison sake, Schneider returned a 9th overall pick.

Neither trades appears to be overpayment when it all shakes out. Of course in the Blues case they got an immediate return of the trade that was a lot better than the Avs, but you would have to think they ended up pretty much exactly how management envisioned they would. I wouldn't be surprised if Berra ends up being a really good goalie and people can't believe the Avs got him for a 2nd. But yes, on the day of the trade, Berra's play doesn't indicate the value of a 2nd.

I'm not sure if I just agreed with you or not now.

I'd say clear wins (no overpayment) for the Avs were:
-Winnik for 4th
-Galiardi, Winnik for McGinn
-Downie for Quincey
-Tanguay, Sarich for Jones, O'Brien.