Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LV

[Dutchy9]

So with the injuries and call ups, I wanna take a shot at what the lineup will be for the next game..........but mostly the lines I'd put.

ROR-Dutchy-Ginner
Landy-Mack-Carey
Talbot-Mitchell-Malone
Bordy-Cliche-McLeod

Ideal lineup, or am I way off, and have no idea of what I'm talking about?

 

[RockLobster]

So with the injuries and call ups, I wanna take a shot at what the lineup will be for the next game..........but mostly the lines I'd put.

ROR-Dutchy-Ginner
Landy-Mack-Carey
Talbot-Mitchell-Malone
Bordy-Cliche-McLeod

Ideal lineup, or am I way off, and have no idea of what I'm talking about?

Mitchell will be playing w/ Lando and MacK...can't see them putting Carey out there with another Rookie (no matter how well MacKinnon is playing he's still a rookie).

Carey won't even play if Stastny is playing, they'd be more likely to go with Malone over Carey.

 

[member 116861]

So with the injuries and call ups, I wanna take a shot at what the lineup will be for the next game..........but mostly the lines I'd put.

ROR-Dutchy-Ginner
Landy-Mack-Carey
Talbot-Mitchell-Malone
Bordy-Cliche-McLeod

Ideal lineup, or am I way off, and have no idea of what I'm talking about?

I wouldn't mind it but we'll probably see this instead.

ROR - Duchene - McGinn
Landy - Malkin - MacK
McLeod - Cliche - Talbot
Carey - Malone - Bordy

 

[Dutchy9]

oh didn't know stastny was already confirmed for the next game.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Agree with RL. Malone goes on the 4th line, McLeod moves up when Stastny is back. Assuming Stastny doesn't play it would be:

O'Reilly-Duchene-McGinn
Landy-MacK-Mitchell
McLeod-Cliche-Talbot
Carey-Malone-Bordy

Everyone moves up. Bordy never plays that much so I think he sticks on the 4th no matter what. They could put Carey or Malone on the 3rd and leave Cliche on the 4th but probably not. They will just play that 4th line about 5 minutes.

 

[tigervixxxen]

oh didn't know stastny was already confirmed for the next game.

He's not but I'd say its doubtful.

 

[RockLobster]

Agree with RL. Malone goes on the 4th line, McLeod moves up when Stastny is back. Assuming Stastny doesn't play it would be:

O'Reilly-Duchene-McGinn
Landy-MacK-Mitchell
McLeod-Cliche-Talbot
Carey-Malone-Bordy

Everyone moves up. Bordy never plays that much so I think he sticks on the 4th no matter what. They could put Carey or Malone on the 3rd and leave Cliche on the 4th but probably not. They will just play that 4th line about 5 minutes.

Pains me to see that, because Carey and Malone w/ Bordy is just useless because that line would get less than 7 minutes in a game....

Would rather see Carey or Malone switched w/ Cliche...

 

[Tommy Shelby]

It will be

ROR-Dutchy-McGinn
Lando-Staz-MacK
McLeod-Malkin-Talbot
Holden/Sarich-Cliche-Bordy

Or if Staz is still out

ROR-Dutchy-McGinn
Lando-MacK-Talbot
McLeod-Malkin-Cliche
Holden/Sarich-Malone-Bordy

 

[tigervixxxen]

We have call ups now!

 

[CobraAcesS]

This. Hindsight is always 20/20 for a reason. Let's give Malone and Carey a chance to fill in and hopefully Mitchell and Cliche can step up.

Uh... Usually you're right. However....

There were more people than just myself who could see that we could of used at least one more top 9 forward added to the lineup. At least another McGinn level player (3rd liner who can spot up the line up).

I can't help but agree with skepticism around paying a 2nd for a back up to our backup, and watching two (Maybe even three, can't remember) different trades go down for the exact type of forward we need that involved only a 3rd and 5th in a very shallow draft. (I think both of those trades had the picks in different years as well)

You have Mitchell and other guys whose contracts are up as well, which means there really would be no issue in getting said player with the idea of resigning him.

On top of all of this... We watched Fasth, and Halak Scrivens go for what 4th 3rd round picks? No matter how you spin it, there is at least some basis to question the move, and lack there of at the deadline.

I get not paying for a rental defender that is only a marginal upgrade, but if the plan is to continue to rely on our forward depth for the season. You might want to take steps to ensure that the area has the needed depth to hold up down the stretch.

Plenty of people could see that we were one injury away from not having that advantage. Now we have two top 6 forwards injured.


Edit : On the call ups, you bring up two scrubs with almost zero NHL future. Instead of bringing up someone like Sgarbossa, or Agozzino who actually posses some offensive ability.

F Lee Stempniak / 3rd Round Pick (2014)

F Ales Hemsky / 5th Round Pick (2014) & 3rd Round Pick (2015)

F Marcel Goc / 5th Round Pick (2014) & 3rd Round Pick (2015)

F Marian Gaborik / F Matt Frattin & 2nd Round Pick (2014 or 2015) & Conditional 3rd Round Pick*

G Ben Scrivens / 3rd Round Pick (2014)

G Viktor Fasth / 5th Round Pick (2014) & 3rd Round Pick (2015)

There is only one trade on this list that really qualifies as 'more' than what we paid for a UFA backup goalie for our backup goalie. We could of used any one of those forwards or goalies instead of what we got. Even while healthy...

O'Reilly - Duchene - Parenteau

Landeskog - Stastny - ___?___ (Hemsky/Gaborik)

McGinn - MacKinnon - Talbot

-------- or ---------

O'Reilly - Duchene - Parenteau

Landeskog - Stastny - MacKinnon

McGinn - Goc - Talbot

And that is HEALTHY (minus Tanguay)

There is a little bit of 'blind faith' going on IMO, if people are willing to completely dismiss the fact that there was some mistakes made.

 

[henchman21]

snip

A few points you are missing out here:

Scrivens was traded for Edmonton's 3rd round pick. That will be about ~10 spots away from where the Avs pick in the 2nd round. They are very comparable in value. The Avs 3rd round pick is further in value from Edmonton's than the Avs 2nd round pick is.

Fasth has a huge salary for a player that would be a backup. No way the Avs spend 3.4m on a backup for next season if they want to re-sign Stastny and ROR. Maybe there is theoretical room, but practical room... the Avs will not pay 3.4m for a backup goalie.

Berra is not a rental (he will be re-signed), the other players you listed are. Sakic said they would not pay for a rental.

When the trade deadline hit we were running lines of:

ROR-Duchene-PAP
Landy-Stastny-MacK
McGinn-Mitchell-Talbot
McLeod-Cliche-Bordy

No team banks on losing 2 top 6 players right after the deadline (we were 2 injuries away from having issues in the top 6). If they did you would see teams having a lot more talent on the 3rd line. Then, like it or not, Roy was not going to upgrade Mitchell... anybody that thinks Roy is going to upgrade Mitchell is living in a fantasy land. You can tell that Roy likes him as a player and the versatility he brings to the game. You don't need top 6 depth, because of McGinn. So you are left with putting a player like Stempniak on the 4th line playing 7-8 minutes until injuries hit. Which may or may not happen. I say on the 4th line because any bottom 6 player getting brought in would not have taken a 3rd line spot from any of the above players. Could they have traded for depth and right now (hindsight) it would look smart. It also would be quite ridiculous to have a player of Stempniak's ability playing a 4th line role.

Stastny isn't out long term, so at most we play 2 or 3 games with Mitchell in the top 6... which isn't that terrible. Then we go back to having a very good top 6 with McGinn replacing Mitchell, and our 3rd line will still be decent/good with Talbot-Mitchell-McLeod/Cliche.

Carey and Malone fit roles better. I would have much rather have seen Heard and Agozzino come up because they can add something different, but Heard isn't ready (I just wanted his grit) and Agozzino isn't a 4th line capable player. Carey and Malone are capable on being in the bottom 6 (with the PK roles it requires), and Carey actually has a bit of offensive upside (4th in scoring on Lake Erie last year, tied for 3rd in goals).

If there is any deal to be upset about it is the MacDonald deal as he could easily be re-signed here and wouldn't necessarily be looked at as a rental. The price was fairly high, but he would have been a much better add than anybody else at the deadline.

Also, don't forget the Rene Bourque rumors... if we trade for depth, I would have been surprised if it wasn't him. People would have been up in arms about that trade, more so than giving up a 2nd for Berra.

In the end, the team didn't make a depth trade and is going to rely on Lake Erie to bring in some bottom 6 depth. Nothing can be done about it at this point. Either the call ups work, or they don't. If they work, the coaching and management staff made the right call. If they don't... either the team has to stay healthy or management learns a lesson.

FTR: I wasn't against bringing in another depth forward by any means. There are a number of deals that I probably would have done, but management didn't. They have been nothing but right so far, and know the team much better than we do.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Sakic said they would not pay for a rental.

Berra was a rental as much as picking up any of the forwards traded at the deadline would have been. There is no guarantee he resigns at all, hes 27, and behind a younger just locked up long term starting goaltender. I'm not saying he wont but I am not willing to proclaim to the world that it's a lock either.

With all that said...

I agree with some (maybe even most) of what you said, what I don't agree with is anyone who thinks Roy/Sakic couldn't have done a better job at the trade deadline without mortgaging our future.

Pointing out that we are missing two top 6 forwards does not change the fact that we were one injury away from losing the depth advantage that we held going into most games.

I guess I'm just a little tired of the blind follow Roy/Sakic are getting when there are some obvious gaffs.

I can just as easily argue for them just as much as against, as you have done. But acting like leaving the line between strong forward depth, and not, being only a single injured player. Is a failure and an oversight IMO.

I love Roy, and I love Sakic, and they're both new to the NHL GM game so there will be mistakes. I just don't think choosing to lean on a single crutch, and then doing zero to reenforce it makes any sense what so ever.

If the fans can see it, why couldn't they? We sure as hell do not need more of the type of players that you get in the 3rd and 5th round of the draft.

I think it's fair to acknowledge that they didn't do their due diligence when it comes to reading the trade market. Maybe they didn't know how cheap it would be to acquire those players? Year after year playoff teams have added depth to their lineups for insurance. If they are as serious about the playoffs as they say to the cameras, then they should have done more IMO.

And this isn't the first time I've posted about wanting a forward added at the deadline. I posted about it before, during, and after the trade deadline.

No one should have expected a 1st + Roster player + prospect to be paid out for a Vanek type player.... But a 3rd and a 5th to add an asset like Goc, or Hemsky, that you'd have a damn good chance at turning into a long term add? That's a no brainer with the center depth that we have.

Edit: Btw... I wanted Kulemin, he wasn't moved, but the trades that actually happened really make me wonder how much he would have actually cost. I think what I wanted most was a now, and future upgrade on Mitchell, preferably at wing. With the idea that we keep MacK, Duchene, and Stastny down the middle.

I'd personally rather be punched in the balls at puck drop rather than watch Johnny Malkin skate around the rink like Radio with a football, and playing anywhere near the top 6, or next to any one of MacK, Duchene, or Stastny. The more hes on the ice, the less actually effective players have the puck. So that's my personal interest in this beef, any player brought in would have most likely shoved his ass down to the fourth line where he belongs when we were healthy. Now I have to endure prolonged exposure to him playing in our top 6/9.... FML

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's not a blind follow to agree with what Sakic and Roy have done. They are not immune to criticism but I have no problem with it, not because of their hero status but because of logic.

They tried to get Scrivens and for whatever reason it didn't work out. So they paid to get what they want. If we were in the position of playing Pickard for an extended period of time the exact same argument would have been made about why didn't they do anything to fix the Giguere issue.

It's funny after daily complaining about the defense and lack of moves to shore up the defense that this is a major gripe that assets were not used to bring in a forward. As Hench said, where exactly was this new forward going to play with everyone healthy? On the 4th line? May as use call ups there, they are going to play 5 minutes anyway. Roy trusts the guys he has, they will always get more ice time than anyone new, trade or call up. And MacKinnon's days on the third line are over, he's top 6 from here on out.

 

[CobraAcesS]

It's not a blind follow to agree with what Sakic and Roy have done. They are not immune to criticism but I have no problem with it, not because of their hero status but because of logic.

They tried to get Scrivens and for whatever reason it didn't work out. So they paid to get what they want. If we were in the position of playing Pickard for an extended period of time the exact same argument would have been made about why didn't they do anything to fix the Giguere issue.

It's funny after daily complaining about the defense and lack of moves to shore up the defense that this is a major gripe that assets were not used to bring in a forward. As Hench said, where exactly was this new forward going to play with everyone healthy? On the 4th line? May as use call ups there, they are going to play 5 minutes anyway. Roy trusts the guys he has, they will always get more ice time than anyone new, trade or call up. And MacKinnon's days on the third line are over, he's top 6 from here on out.

All you have to do to figure out this statement is look at the lines I posted in my second to last post.

Adding another forward and then signing them before free-agency, would also make it a hell of a lot easier to trade a guy like PA or McGinn if that's what it takes to add defense.

One single injury is what most likely stopped us from making that type of trade all year long.

O'Reilly - Duchene - Parenteau

Landeskog - Stastny - ___?___ (Hemsky/Gaborik)

McGinn - MacKinnon - Talbot

-------- or ---------

O'Reilly - Duchene - Parenteau

Landeskog - Stastny - MacKinnon

McGinn - Goc - Talbot

And that is HEALTHY (minus Tanguay)

With Tanguay? You simply use Talbot as our 4th line center, and run as far away from Mitchell as humanly possible.

For 2014/15 visual reference...

O'Reilly - Duchene - Hemsky/PA/Tanguay

Landeskog - Stastny - Tanguay/Hemsky/PA

McGinn - MacKinnon - PA/Hemsky/Tanguay

McLeod - Talbot - Bordy/Cliche

Assuming people are retained of course.

 

[henchman21]

Berra isn't a rental. He may be a UFA, but the intention is that he will be our backup for years to come.

IMO the 4th line and bottom pairing are pretty insignificant areas of a team. They don't get many minutes and there are a lot of players who can fill in those roles in the AHL. IE Malone will be fine as a 4th liner and Holden/Guenin/etc have been fine in a bottom pairing role.

Going along with that, the Avs were 2 injuries away on the top forwards from having depth issues in the top 6. Historically it is rare to have two top 6 forwards go down after the deadline. It just happened quickly to the Avs. If Stastny isn't out (with a fairly minor injury mind you) we are not talking about this as it would just mean that McGinn moves up and Cliche/McLeod moves up to the 3rd line. While not great by any means, Cliche and McLeod can play a 3rd line role effectively.

It just seems that people are just waiting to chastise this management group at the drop of a hat. If there is something that somebody doesn't like, it is immediately that Roy and Sakic didn't know what they are doing. They do know what they are doing, and it shows on this team. We have 89 points after 65 games! The Avs have not had 89 points in a full season since 09-10. I may not totally agree with everything that they do, but they deserve the benefit of the doubt until they prove they are incompetent. It was said that a deal fell through, we don't exactly know if that was for a defensemen, forward, or both. We simply don't know. It is very possible that they tried to get a forward, but couldn't come to an agreement. That is just as likely of an argument as they didn't try.

BTW get used to Mitchell on this team. He isn't being replaced.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

All you have to do to figure out this statement is look at the lines I posted in my second to last post.

Adding another forward and then signing them before free-agency, would also make it a hell of a lot easier to trade a guy like PA or McGinn if that's what it takes to add defense.

One single injury is what most likely stopped us from making that type of trade all year long.



With Tanguay? You simply use Talbot as our 4th line center, and run as far away from Mitchell as humanly possible.

For 2014/15 visual reference...

O'Reilly - Duchene - Hemsky/PA/Tanguay

Landeskog - Stastny - Tanguay/Hemsky

McGinn - MacKinnon - PA/Hemsky/Tanguay

McLeod - Talbot - Bordy/Cliche

Assuming people are retained of course.

NHL general managers have a reputation and generally don't sign free agents to make one of their loyal existing guys expendable. I've seen a lot of posters here saying sign ______ so they can trade ______ but that's not how it works. You sign players to fill gaps and improve the team. If you trade a player then your replace him. Gm's dont do it backward. Especially when the guys calling the trade shots on our team is Sakic and Roy. You know how 'Umble they are.

 

[tigervixxxen]

All you have to do to figure out this statement is look at the lines I posted in my second to last post.

Adding another forward and then signing them before free-agency, would also make it a hell of a lot easier to trade a guy like PA or McGinn if that's what it takes to add defense.

One single injury is what most likely stopped us from making that type of trade all year long.

And I said that Roy is going to play the guys he trusts and have been there all year over anyone new.

I also don't buy the theory that Tanguay's injury messed up all their plans. After he was out that long and then to assume he'd be just fine would have been foolish. I can't imagine that was the basis of their plan or that they were ever that serious about trading PA or McGinn.

Talbot will never play on the 4th line. MacKinnon is not going back to the third line.

 

[Tommy Shelby]

BTW get used to Mitchell on this team. He isn't being replaced.

*Insert Michael Scott "NOOOOO" gif here*

 

[Foppa2118]

Berra may turn out to be a useful player, but people are just straight up not being honest by justifying paying a 2nd rounder for a 3rd stringer down the stretch when Jiggy played great the game after the deadline, and not paying cheaper prices on useful forwards like Goc (3rd+5th) or Stempniak (3rd).

They play Patrick Bordeleau in a healthy lineup, with no NHL regulars behind him in case of injury. Berra was acquired because they were worried about Jiggy. The chances of Varly and Jiggy getting hurt and not being able to play are much much much lower than that of a forward, which would have been cheaper to acquire as well.

You can say it won't hurt the franchise that bad because it won't, but it's simply not true to justify making that deal instead of bringing in a forward. The risk was obvious at the deadline, and now it's come true.

At best if Staz comes back soon and doesn't have any more back problems, this is what their bottom six looks like down the stretch and into the playoffs.

McLeod-Mitchell-Talbot
Malone-Cliche-Bordy
Carey

 

[henchman21]

That bottom 6 isn't the train wreck you are painting it out to be. Mitchell is a solid #3C and has done well in that role this year. Talbot is an excellent 3rd liner. Cliche has been a good #4C. Bordy is a goon so that is fine. Malone is an okay 4th liner. McLeod is the player that is out of place, but that is mostly because of his play this year. In the past he has shown spurts of being a 3rd line capable player... this year he hasn't been good on the 4th line (he needs to get his crap together). That bottom 6 is comparable to other playoff team's bottom 6s, it is better than some... worse than some.

 

[tigervixxxen]

No I wouldn't have given a second but I understand it after they missed out on getting Scrivens. They tried to make that deal.

I don't know how being short a goalie was a far fetched what if scenario, Jiggy is already iffy as it is. He played decent one game but others not so much as he's been injured twice.

I still really don't see how a cheap fill in forward is a much better scenario but then again I wasn't a fan of a cheap fill in D either.

 

[ABasin]

Berra isn't a rental. He may be a UFA, but the intention is that he will be our backup for years to come.

IMO the 4th line and bottom pairing are pretty insignificant areas of a team. They don't get many minutes and there are a lot of players who can fill in those roles in the AHL.

The exception to that being the penalty kill. I believe it's very valuable to have the lower line/pairing guys be able to effectively kill penalties, so the higher line/pairing guys don't have to get worn out doing it.

BTW get used to Mitchell on this team. He isn't being replaced.

Am I the only person in here who doesn't have a huge problem with Mitchell? He's certainly nothing special, and his habit of over handling the puck in obvious no-win situations is irritating at times. But it's not like he's a dog of a player. $1.1M for him - scoring 10-12 goals a season, killing some penalties, being reasonably physical and active in the offensive zone? I see an awful lot of negative comments about him, but honestly don't see what the big problem is.

 

[AvsRobin]

I think Mitchell is fine also, he has flaws, yes, but that's why he is only getting 1.1M a year, and I think we'll re-sign him to a deserved raise. 2-3 years at 1.5-1.75M something.

 

[Foppa2118]

That bottom 6 isn't the train wreck you are painting it out to be. Mitchell is a solid #3C and has done well in that role this year. Talbot is an excellent 3rd liner. Cliche has been a good #4C. Bordy is a goon so that is fine. Malone is an okay 4th liner. McLeod is the player that is out of place, but that is mostly because of his play this year. In the past he has shown spurts of being a 3rd line capable player... this year he hasn't been good on the 4th line (he needs to get his crap together). That bottom 6 is comparable to other playoff team's bottom 6s, it is better than some... worse than some.

I can't disagree more.

Mitchell is an average 3rd line center, it's simply giving him too much credit to say otherwise. Talbot is a good defensive winger and PKer that provides very little offense, and isn't that quick. McLeod is an ok defensive winger that provides even less offense. Cliche is a pretty good 4th line defensive center that has one career NHL goal. Bordy is better than most goons offensively and defensively, but is still worse than all the previous guys. Malone is a rookie that hasn't been able to stick in the NHL and has one NHL goal, and Carey has never played an NHL game before.

That is a very poor bottom six to rely on in the playoffs.

 

[Freudian]

Am I the only person in here who doesn't have a huge problem with Mitchell? He's certainly nothing special, and his habit of over handling the puck in obvious no-win situations is irritating at times. But it's not like he's a dog of a player. $1.1M for him - scoring 10-12 goals a season, killing some penalties, being reasonably physical and active in the offensive zone? I see an awful lot of negative comments about him, but honestly don't see what the big problem is.

He's more skilled than most third line centers. He's just unpredictable and unreliable. I'd prefer safe in that slot.

On the plus side to Mitchell, he does have the skating and versatility to move up to a scoring line winger slot without being terrible at it.