Speculation: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics here) XXXI

[Lonewolfe2015]

Well, Shattenkirk's on his way to being an all-star, and a 20-point two-way defenseman is exactly what EJ is.

And I said "one of the worst trades of the decade", not the worst. If Shattenkirk has plateau'd offensively and defensively and/or if EJ is about to improve significantly offensively, then of course the trade will look OK. But if the current improvement trend for both players continues, it will certainly be one of the worst, IMO.

Come on man, you should know that EJ's TOI isn't a good comparable to Shattenkirk's. Hitch actually knows how to use his good defenders, namely Shattenkirk is flanked by a responsible defender in Jackman while EJ gets straddled by Matt 'Norris Candidate' Hunwick.

Shattenkirk is definitely getting better, but you could never use him on the top pairing in the way you could EJ, just ask Blues fans that missed EJ's defensive poise during the playoffs once Pietrangelo went down.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think a lot of you are sorely overrating Erik Johnson's offensive abilities. He's much more Dan Hamhuis than he is Rob Blake, IMHO. That said, I still don't think the trade is a failure so long as you can surround him with offensive talent. He's proven he's willing to do just about anything to keep the puck out of the net, and I think if you put some capable blueline talent on this team and take some of the ridiculous load off his shoulders, he will thrive.

Put it this way--I won't be looking at point totals from him to see if he's been a successful defenseman in our eyes.

There is one other way this trade becomes a failure IMO. If Elliott and Barrie both fail to develop, then giving up a top-notch puckmover was too high a price to pay (and as I've said before...if that happens, then Billington and everyone else in Player Development need to be fired post-haste). EJ is already a good all-around defender, but he can't carry the offensive load for the Avalanche, nor should he be expected to.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Keaton Ellerby for a 5th round pick. I happen to like Ellerby. Why werent we in on this? Oh right we need no help on D. haha

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I think a lot of you are sorely overrating Erik Johnson's offensive abilities. He's much more Dan Hamhuis than he is Rob Blake, IMHO. That said, I still don't think the trade is a failure so long as you can surround him with offensive talent. He's proven he's willing to do just about anything to keep the puck out of the net, and I think if you put some capable blueline talent on this team and take some of the ridiculous load off his shoulders, he will thrive.

Put it this way--I won't be looking at point totals from him to see if he's been a successful defenseman in our eyes.

There is one other way this trade becomes a failure IMO. If Elliott and Barrie both fail to develop, then giving up a top-notch puckmover was too high a price to pay (and as I've said before...if that happens, then Billington and everyone else in Player Development need to be fired post-haste). EJ is already a good all-around defender, but he can't carry the offensive load for the Avalanche, nor should he be expected to.

Meh, I don't think you can really judge EJ's offensive game based on his time in Colorado so far this year. I mean he has had to play with absolute garbage all season long and much of last year. If you look at every good Dman in the NHL offensively and defensively they all have fairly good partners as well. Piets/Shatty, Keith/Seabrook, Suter/Weber for a long time. Doughty/Mitchell.

Most of if not all the better Dmen in the league have at least another Top 3 Dman with them. EJ has played with 5/6/7's his entire time since joining Colorado.

Im strongly of the belief that if EJ had a Top 3 Dman offensive or Defensive along side of him we would quickly see his game evolve to become one of the better 2 way Dmen in the league.

 

[falconski]

Keaton Ellerby for a 5th round pick. I happen to like Ellerby. Why werent we in on this? Oh right we need no help on D. haha

Do we really need another bottom pairing guy?

 

[The Kingslayer]

Do we really need another bottom pairing guy?

Hes prolly better then most of the current garbage we have. Ellerby over SOB, Hunwick, Zanon any day of the week.

 

[Ivan13]

That deal for Yandle that includes our 1st and Radar is by far the worst deal involving Radar I've seen thus far. Radar and Yandle are pretty close in value, Gordon and our 1st on the other hand are nowhere near close in value. I sure hope our FO isn't as shortsighted as some of the people posting here.

 

[ABasin]

Come on man, you should know that EJ's TOI isn't a good comparable to Shattenkirk's. Hitch actually knows how to use his good defenders, namely Shattenkirk is flanked by a responsible defender in Jackman while EJ gets straddled by Matt 'Norris Candidate' Hunwick.

Shattenkirk is definitely getting better, but you could never use him on the top pairing in the way you could EJ, just ask Blues fans that missed EJ's defensive poise during the playoffs once Pietrangelo went down.

I don't have a problem comparing their ES/PK IT, as it shows how they can play defensively. They both play a lot, and Hitchcock isn't hiding Shattenkirk from PK duty, because the guy can now play in his own zone.

I agree that EJ is really hosed when it comes to defensive partners, and my commentary here isn't to bash EJ per se. I like him a lot as a player. But still - there may be a day when Shattenkirk is considered equal to EJ, and if that happens, that trade will be an awful one in retrospect. Another gross overpayment by Sherman.

 

[ABasin]

Put it this way--I won't be looking at point totals from him to see if he's been a successful defenseman in our eyes.

Successful defenseman? Or 1st pairing defenseman?

Because if EJ is in fact just a 1st pairing defensive defenseman (like Scuderi or Orpik), then they *really* overpaid for him.

If he's a two-way or offensive 1st pairing defenseman, then how can you not look at point totals as an indication of his offensive production?

 

[The Kingslayer]

I don't have a problem comparing their ES/PK IT, as it shows how they can play defensively. They both play a lot, and Hitchcock isn't hiding Shattenkirk from PK duty, because the guy can now play in his own zone.

I agree that EJ is really hosed when it comes to defensive partners, and my commentary here isn't to bash EJ per se. I like him a lot as a player. But still - there may be a day when Shattenkirk is considered equal to EJ, and if that happens, that trade will be an awful one in retrospect. Another gross overpayment by Sherman.

and if Rattie turns into a player and Siemens ends up doing Oil changes at Mr. Lube it would be a complete robbery.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

I don't have a problem comparing their ES/PK IT, as it shows how they can play defensively. They both play a lot, and Hitchcock isn't hiding Shattenkirk from PK duty, because the guy can now play in his own zone.

I agree that EJ is really hosed when it comes to defensive partners, and my commentary here isn't to bash EJ per se. I like him a lot as a player. But still - there may be a day when Shattenkirk is considered equal to EJ, and if that happens, that trade will be an awful one in retrospect. Another gross overpayment by Sherman.

My point was that EJ should be playing MORE ES/PK, but Sacco isn't using him enough. Anything less than 25 minutes a night is a failure on his part, we've all seen EJ play his best games when he gets the lion share of TOI.

Also, you're leaving out the swap of picks and McClement/Stewie.

If we had managed to keep McClement (no fault of Sherman's) we'd be sitting better off center-wise despite O'Reilly's holdout. If Siemens pans out, we'll be looking much better defensively.

Stewie is doing better this year for them and Rattie looks promising... but there's still two key pieces that haven't debuted in the NHL yet for both clubs which will play a major role in determining the winner.

 

[Bender]

Do we really need another bottom pairing guy?

Ellerby has potential though. Every time I watched him, I came away impressed. That doesn't mean he was perfect but at 23, still room to grow.

I think Florida just made a pretty big mistake right there, a 5th round pick is a pretty bad return for this guy.

I would have made that deal for Ellerby instantly even if it meant putting Hunwick on waivers. I'm still not a fan of Hunwicks, he does move the puck but the play never seems to go anywhere. He doesn't really provide offensive opportunities, he's mediocre on the defense, he just skates fast, that's about it. He's just a much less offensive, worst defensive version of J-M Liles.

 

[ABasin]

Meh, I don't think you can really judge EJ's offensive game based on his time in Colorado so far this year. I mean he has had to play with absolute garbage all season long and much of last year. If you look at every good Dman in the NHL offensively and defensively they all have fairly good partners as well. Piets/Shatty, Keith/Seabrook, Suter/Weber for a long time. Doughty/Mitchell.

Most of if not all the better Dmen in the league have at least another Top 3 Dman with them. EJ has played with 5/6/7's his entire time since joining Colorado.

Im strongly of the belief that if EJ had a Top 3 Dman offensive or Defensive along side of him we would quickly see his game evolve to become one of the better 2 way Dmen in the league.

You are entirely correct, IMO. Because when he was paired with Quincey for a month or so last season just prior to Quincey's trade, he played the best offensive hockey I've seen him play as an Av. A good partner would do wonders for him, I think.

But alas....

 

[ABasin]

Also, you're leaving out the swap of picks and McClement/Stewie.

I left out McClement because he was/is irrelevant. The Avs got a bit more than one season out of him and that's it. And he wasn't really that great, except on the PK. They replaced him with Mitchell, which is fine. 4th line guys are pretty easy to find.

But if Shattenkirk = EJ in a year or two (which is the premise of my observation and discussion), then we compare an equal Stewart-McClement swap, which is a tidal wave of an overwhelming win for StL.

The picks aren't terribly relevant either, because we don't know how either player will develop.

Again, my overall point here isn't to lay out EJ - he's a really good player, and I'm OK with him on the team. However, if Shattenkirk continues to improve his game, and EJ doesn't, this trade will go down as a very, very bad one in recent hockey history - and one that overall hurt the team rather than helped it.

 

[Pokecheque]

Successful defenseman? Or 1st pairing defenseman?

Because if EJ is in fact just a 1st pairing defensive defenseman (like Scuderi or Orpik), then they *really* overpaid for him.

If he's a two-way or offensive 1st pairing defenseman, then how can you not look at point totals as an indication of his offensive production?

No, don't get me wrong, I think the guy's got plenty of offensive upside, but he's not going to put up great numbers. He doesn't jump into the play like Blake could (the guy was amazing at knowing when to do so) nor does he sport a fantastic shot from the point. Again, it's good...not great.

I still see him as a very good all-around defenseman. I think if you pair him with a guy like, say, Mark Streit next year, he'll be awesome. I think he'd do best with an offensive defender, not a defensive one like the Avs keep trying to do. And certainly NOT Hunwick, who at this point is the blueliner equivalent of Kevin Porter.

 

[Nzap]

But still - there may be a day when Shattenkirk is considered equal to EJ,

If that happens the trade will look like:
Shattenkirk->EJ
Stewart->1st
2nd->McClement.

Still can't find the big overpayment by Avs side.

 

[Bender]

You are entirely correct, IMO. Because when he was paired with Quincey for a month or so last season just prior to Quincey's trade, he played the best offensive hockey I've seen him play as an Av. A good partner would do wonders for him, I think.

But alas....

THAT, and:

- playing on a team that hasn't been shut-out THREE times already this season

- maybe a coaching staff that would put him on the PP from the start of the year and not 'try out' 5 forwards for the first 5-6 games of the year? WTF was that?? Oh that is WHEN we actually DO get PowerPlays...

- can you imagine if we had another way to try and score OTHER THAN "Ok guys, let's get the puck in deep, be on that puck FIRST, cycle it around and get it back to the point for a low percentage shot on net. After the goalie makes the save, you guys can get off the ice and then it will be the other lines turn".

I'm personally very happy with the way EJ has played this season. I think he's gotten better than he was last year. He's making some crazy defensive takeaways this year and has looked rock-solid.

 

[RockLobster]

You are entirely correct, IMO. Because when he was paired with Quincey for a month or so last season just prior to Quincey's trade, he played the best offensive hockey I've seen him play as an Av. A good partner would do wonders for him, I think.

But alas....

I've often wondered, and I don't think that I'm the only one on this, that if Elliott can just get a little bit more experience on the defensive side of the game, that he could turn out to be a good partner for EJ.

He's got great offensive instincts, but does need to just get a bit more on the defensive side...could be a decent pairing

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

I've often wondered, and I don't think that I'm the only one on this, that if Elliott can just get a little bit more experience on the defensive side of the game, that he could turn out to be a good partner for EJ.

He's got great offensive instincts, but does need to just get a bit more on the defensive side...could be a decent pairing

+1

I've been mentioning Barrie or Elliott to partner with EJ lately simply to at least experiment with. But Elliott was my preferred choice, I think his wrister would be lethal from the left side.

 

[Freudian]

If EJ was used for 24 minutes/game with a solid partner and used on the left point on the PP with a solid PP qb on the other point, I think we'd see what we have in him.

Having him worry about having to rush back and break up plays because his dunce partner can't handle the puck doesn't play to his strengths.

 

[The Kingslayer]

If EJ was used for 24 minutes/game with a solid partner and used on the left point on the PP with a solid PP qb on the other point, I think we'd see what we have in him.

Having him worry about having to rush back and break up plays because his dunce partner can't handle the puck doesn't play to his strengths.

I hope EJ doesnt end up like Iginla where the Flames could never find a true number 1centreman for him. I really hope we can find a partner for EJ. Trade ROR for Hedman

 

[Foppa2118]

That deal for Yandle that includes our 1st and Radar is by far the worst deal involving Radar I've seen thus far. Radar and Yandle are pretty close in value, Gordon and our 1st on the other hand are nowhere near close in value. I sure hope our FO isn't as shortsighted as some of the people posting here.

Radar and Yandle are not that close in value. Yandle is an All Star top pairing defenseman, and the Yotes don't have to move him. The Avs are more desperate, and have to entice them enough to move him.

It's a matter of overpaying by a little bit with a draft pick to get a signed player that you desperately need. 1st's are handed out like candy at trade deadline for rental players.

 

[Avs71]

I said it in another thread, but do people seriously think that Shattenkirk would be an all star on this team? Seriously... He was -11 here, and then miraculously becomes a plus player on the Blues in the same season. That is a direct product of being on a much better team, with much better support on defence, with a much much much better coach. The guy has hit 43 points two seasons in a row. Since when did the Avs trade away a 65 point defenceman? Will Shattenkirk hit that one day? Wouldn't surprise me. Would he have done it in Colorado? Really doubt it. Right now he has 9 assists. 6 of which are secondary. Who would he be passing to in Colorado that would make the next play to get him those secondary assists? Not to mention any of the Avs defencemen paired with Shattenkirk as the top pairing would get run over by the big teams like San Jose/L.A/Anaheim who Colorado will more than likely be in a division with soon. I'm happy for St. Louis that he is thriving there and becoming a great player, but that is no where near the worst trade of the last decade.

If people seriously think that Erik Johnson playing for Joe Sacco, with Matt Hunwick or Greg Zanon as his main partner is what the real EJ looks like, then I think those people are in for a big shock once the Avs aquire a second defenceman who could actually crack the top 4 on a playoff roster. This is no different than if Duchene/Stastny/O'Reilly's wingers were Kobasew and Winnik for the entire season. You think they would be scoring lots?

The guy is really making the best of a ****** situation. Terrible coach, terrible defense partners, and a forward group that is missing the entire first line from a team that didn't even make the playoffs last season. Be happy with the fact that he is becoming a rock defensively, occasionally shows flashes of great offensive capability, and hold your breath that sometime in the next year he gets a better defence partner.

He had 10 points in 21 full games when he first came over. 39 points over a full season. No reason to think he can't do that. He played mostly with Liles for that period of time. Just get him a real ****ing partner and watch him hit 40 points.

 

[Freudian]

What is most likely to happen this summer?

Corey Perry getting $8M/year or David Clarkson getting $6M/year?

 

[Avs_19]

What is most likely to happen this summer?

Corey Perry getting $8M/year or David Clarkson getting $6M/year?

Odd question. You have some inside info on Burke becoming the GM of a team with lots of cap space?