I'm Gonna Make You An Offer You Can't Refuse (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part VIII ‎

[Wheathead]

Man, if the majority of the PA has Coburn's views the NHLPA can sit on it and rotate. If they come back to the NHL with anything more than 50% the NHL should tell them go to pound sand.

 

[Crows*]

Interesting from dater.

@adater: One weakness (and irritant) the NHL sees in NHLPA: lack of stable player negotiating committee. League thinks Fehr has no inner player (1)

@adater: ...circle, which keeps the mutineers better at bay, but also hurts in better informing PA of the real goings-on (2)

Fehr knew his biggest enemy would be his own association.

His open and free policy is bs

 

[mossey3535]

Can you give a real example.

Say cap is 50mil.

Thanks to MArc for a good calculation. I'll just add to it by showing the two faces of the escrow payment:

Players lose their escrow payment in 2008-2009 (but actually still get paid escrow LOL):

A memo from NHL commissioner Gary Bettman to the governors itemized just how the players’ money in the escrow fund was split up. It was the second time since the system was implemented in 2005 the players did not get 100 per cent of their salaries (they lost 2.5 per cent in 2006-07), but it was the first major haircut with 12.9 per cent coming off their compensation.

Actually it's not as bad as it sounds because here's the split:

League makes $2.58B the year before in a bad economy. (btw, CAD$ = 0.85 USD$ at that time). NHLPA removes 18% of player salaries in escrow - they usually take out too much to be on the safe side.

$2.58B*56.74% = $1.47B in player salaries (2007-2008), round to $1.59B (ESTIMATED from previous year's growth)

$1.59*18% = $287M in escrow for 2008-2009

That year, NHL teams actually paid the players ~$1.7B. The league only grew 0.6% (they made $2.6B) so the players were paid $207M too much (this number is the real number with no rounding according to the article.)

So the $287M in escrow became $80M players, $48.7M RS, $28M midpoint top-up, and $130M to all teams. Essentially the players took more than 56.74% that year so some of their salaries were reimbursed to the owners to make the split 43.26/56.74 exactly.


In contrast, in 2005-2006 the players got all their money back plus some:

The NHL Players' Association informed its membership Wednesday that the league's 700-plus players will receive all of their escrowed payments plus interest as well as additional "shortfall" payments of between 3.5 to 4.5 percent.

The math here is the same as above. Estimate revenue based on last year plus growth. Remove a certain (large) percentage from player salaries. Do final accounting at end of year, then either pay back the players or pay back the owners.

There's an excellent mouser post in another thread:

btw, here are the figures I have:

+ Means owners paid extra to players.
- Means players returned to owners.

All %'s are as a portion of the total player compensation.

2005-2006: +0.40%
2006-2007: -2.76%
2007-2008: +0.48%
2008-2009: -12.90%
2009-2010: -9.4% [I added in this number from the Shoalts article above]
2010-2011: -4.0% (-2.3% after the lawsuit, again from the article)

I have no 2011-12 numbers but I see in some reports that the players expect to get 8% of their salaries back.

The use of the escalator is not discussed here but that is an interesting internal conflict in the NHLPA by itself.

 

[guyincognito]

I guess I should have clarified. I don't disagree with what you just said, at all. I also am not fully sold on it ending anytime soon.

Which might be the worst part. Because for 90% of the PA (everyone not Parise, Richards, Weber, etc.), the lost games relative to pay cut should be the number one determining factor. They certainly should give two *****. The Jeff Halpern's and Peter Harrold's more than most.

Well, those guys do not count. Blunt, but true. I'm not sure of the exact % of NHL players that didn't get jobs in 04-05 was (and I really don't want to consider 2 ways and ELC's paying in the AHL as "jobs" considering what they would make on the upside portion of their deals, especially guys with attainable bonus money...), but you would think that would be enough pressure to get something, anything, signed.

This time, RSL doesn't exist and the KHL decided not to be a free-for-all, so that % is going to be even higher this time. I agree with you that I don't think this will be resolved, say, this week. To me, this tells me that those guys are not even given an opportunity to vote on something.

 

[WayneSid9987]

This puts pressure on the NHLPA to actually come up with a real proposal. None of that "alternative" BS that they proposed earlier in the process. An offer of substance. Get it done.

Bingo. And not only that. The PA have a full season on the table to get something done in the next 7 days or so.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

@adamjahns: #Blackhawks NHLPA rep Steve Montador: "What we learned from the negotiating meeting was that there was a # of changes to HRR definitions."

@adamjahns: #Blackhawks NHLPA rep Steve Montador: "There’s a handful of things we weren’t in favor of and the entry-level system is the biggest one.â€

Fair enough.

So what so you guys do now? Go back to sulking or propose something?

 

[Mike Jones]

Alright, perhaps I was wrong on whether they cared or not.

Wouldn't the PA be fairly happy with 2 years though?

You'd think. I'm beginning to wonder if this Montador fellow is really "all there".

Maybe somebody else from the Blackhawks should be dealing with this file.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Guys, the NHL knew the PA weren't going to accept the offer. The main thing is Montador said they didn't have big issues with the 50/50 split, still significant progress. You can work around the other stuff, but if the big issue is settled then that means that the other stuff shouldn't be too hard

 

[Riptide]

My logic says the owners locked the players out, the PA has no obligation to negotiate until the owners make a reasonable offer.

Today, on Oct. 16, the owners have made what appears to be a reasonable offer.

And that's apparently logical eh?

 

[BLONG7]

Bingo. And not only that. The PA have a full season on the table to get something done in the next 7 days or so.

They have been saying, let's just play...we want a fair deal...well boys...next move is yours...

Bettman has schooled Fehr...

 

[guyincognito]

Alright, perhaps I was wrong on whether they cared or not.

Wouldn't the PA be fairly happy with 2 years though?

Well, guys coming off their ELC have to wait longer to arbitrate, which means they are stuck with their qualifiers. In theory, only, IMO. Given the short period (I think it'll stay 27-7, that seems to be the easiest concession to give, even if I absolutely loathe it.), you don't want to screw over your younger players too badly because they can pay you back far quicker.

This isn't the old "we own you until you're 31" system. If Scott Niedermayer didn't like how he was treated, he had to wait until 2005 to do anything about it.

Nowadays he's out by the time he's 25.

 

[JR303]

@adamjahns: #Blackhawks NHLPA rep Steve Montador: "What we learned from the negotiating meeting was that there was a # of changes to HRR definitions."

@adamjahns: #Blackhawks NHLPA rep Steve Montador: "There’s a handful of things we weren’t in favor of and the entry-level system is the biggest one.â€

But, isn't that the point of compromise?

A couple things one side isn't happy about, a couple things the other side isn't happy about.

This is all beginning to get revolting.

I don't fault the owners for wanting their best deal, and I don't fault the players for wanting their best deal, but I damn sure fault them all for not realizing that the best deal for the game, and the future of the players is what this is about.

And please, can't everyone please stop with the "the League locked the players out" stuff? It was just a legality, there is no contract, therefore no game. It's that simple.

 

[kdb209]

What has to happen for the PA to take a vote on this or any deal? What would be the process for an agreement to take place?

Fehr and Bettman would have to agree to the deal, then Fehr would go to a conference call to all the players in which they take a vote. If majority wins with a yes, then the players agree to it, and then the owners do the same, and if majority wins there, the owners agree to it, and then the deal is ratified, signed, and we get back to hockey.

Not quite.

First Fehr and Bettman would decide go back to the BoG / Player reps for preliminary feedback. Neither side is required to take an offer back to the owners/players.

If positive, then the agreement would have to be finalized into a draft document.

The draft CBA would be presented to the BoG and full NHLPA membership - with recomendations from Bettman or Fehr.

Approval by the BoG would require either a 50%+1 majority (16 votes) to approve if Bettman supports or a 75% super-majority (23 votes) if Bettman opposes it.

Approval by the players would be done by secret ballot of the entire NHLPA membership - either in person or by secure electronic voting. A simple majority of votes cast would be needed to approve.

 

[Crows*]

I goes Jeff vinnicks comments this morning were With the knowledge of this proposal.

 

[Crows*]

@DarrenDreger: CBA mtng tomorrow not a lock. PA has tons of questions, so there will be discussions and possibility of a face to face later in the day.

 

[guyincognito]

Montador is really front and center for a guy who has already been paid $1M for this season up-front.

 

[mossey3535]

I don't know who to believe right now.

David Pagnotta ‏@TheFourthPeriod
Just told from NHL source that the NHL's new offer is based on current HRR definition, which is significant.

Nick Cotsonika ‏@cotsonika
I am told the NHL's offer uses same HRR definitions, codifying existing interpretations.

CBS Sports (albeit a blogger):

The other big piece of news: The league's proposal would make no changes to the definition of HRR, something that had been a big topic of discussion in previous meetings.

Maybe Montador is misinterpreting changes here. The league backed off their HRR definition with the september offer and the PA has been talking about it constantly still.

 

[Stats01]

NHLPA will always be split up. Just matters which camp is bigger. Without the NHL, a small minority of players have a vastly larger earning potential than the majority do. This will end in a coup, maybe not as obvious as the last one, but in the end the players will vote yes for something the union management and alot of the higher paid/more senior players don't want.

Wouldn't it be the other way around where the higher paid players get more of what they want and the others settle. For example, no one cares about how long ELC's are other than rookies and prospects, they aren't going to get much of a say in anything. And guys like Krys Barch are really just that really annoying cousin you have in your family that you really don't pay attention to. They complain a lot, and whine when things don't go there way but when it comes down to it, they have no pull whatsoever. They'll be told to shut up and they'll listen cause they no leg to stand on.

 

[NinthSpoke06]

These clowns don't deserved to be payed to play a ****ing game.

I hope the NHL just cancels the entire season on these idiots if they continue this crap.

 

[Mike Jones]

Maybe Montador is misinterpreting changes here.

This should not be news at this point.

 

[IslesBeBack*]

This should not be news at this point.

How did this scrub get a job leading the band of morons?

Then again, I understand now. Carry on.

 

[squidz*]

I don't know who to believe right now.

David Pagnotta ‏@TheFourthPeriod
Just told from NHL source that the NHL's new offer is based on current HRR definition, which is significant.

Nick Cotsonika ‏@cotsonika
I am told the NHL's offer uses same HRR definitions, codifying existing interpretations.

CBS Sports (albeit a blogger):

Maybe Montador is misinterpreting changes here. The league backed off their HRR definition with the september offer and the PA has been talking about it constantly still.

Or maybe the PA is still lying to their membership and that's actually what they're being told.

 

[NinthSpoke06]

But seriously, we should all message players, the media, even the Fehr's about how great it is that the players "got the NHL to cave"

This is all about ego to them. Let's stroke their egos, make them think they won. That is what they care about and they certainly aren't the smartest bunch so it should work.

Everyone message their favorite players and congratulate them on "winning" and "getting the NHL to cave."

 

[mossey3535]

I think I'm more inclined to believe the twitter quotes from guys with verified accounts. I don't think the NHL would bother to change the HRR definitions in such an 'end-game' proposal, they have to know it would make negotiation difficult and they already backed off it once.

Also, it really seems like the NHL is going to try to save the season in these next 9 days, and if it doesn't work then they'll cancel the whole thing. I don't really agree that this is 'the starting point' as the PA have claimed. The offer is pretty much it. There is very little room to bargain in.

It's do or die.

 

[Saturated Fats]

And lo, the tide of PR sentiment is turned on its head, and the players are, again, "greedy ********"