Line Combos: If Marleau plays in the top nine, which forward from 16/17 Leafs is pushed down?

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

No way it should be Brown
The guy scored 20 goals as a rookie on a checking line

I'd like to see the Kadri line stay as is as well




The Matthews line was bloody good the last 3rd of the season and into the playoffs
Hyman played his part in that as limited as he may be

Images how much better that line would be if it had someone that could finish on the LW now they do

 

[Mikeyg]

You guys just aren't getting it like usual. Hyman is being paid like a 4th liner because he produces like a bottom 6'er and hes going to be playing there going forward. The kid isn't stupid, he even said himself "ill play wherever they want me to play" yeah thats generic as they come, but when you pair that with the 2 million aav contract that the comment was made in reference to, clearly he understands that hes getting bumped, and i'm sure they've told him that. There is no valid, objective defense for having him in the top 6 anymore, it just isn't possible. I want you guys to work through a mental scenario for me okay? Which scenario is more likely, that the newly signed 6 million AAV future hof'er who has been a prolific scorer his whole career plays in the top 6, or a guy with stone hands who was literally the worst finisher in the league last year? Like come on, get lets get real here boys.

 

[hd1344]

I voted for Uncle Leo, just because he seems to be the most interchangeable guy at this moment.

Hyman, depending on Marleau's fit and success, might eventually move down there. Though i think there would have to be instant chemistry in order to move Babcock off of that trio.

 

[Nithoniniel]

You guys just aren't getting it like usual. Hyman is being paid like a 4th liner because he produces like a bottom 6'er and hes going to be playing there going forward. The kid isn't stupid, he even said himself "ill play wherever they want me to play" yeah thats generic as they come, but when you pair that with the 2 million aav contract that the comment was made in reference to, clearly he understands that hes getting bumped, and i'm sure they've told him that. There is no valid, objective defense for having him in the top 6 anymore, it just isn't possible. I want you guys to work through a mental scenario for me okay? Which scenario is more likely, that the newly signed 6 million AAV future hof'er who has been a prolific scorer his whole career plays in the top 6, or a guy with stone hands who was literally the worst finisher in the league last year? Like come on, get lets get real here boys.

Marleau is for sure the most likely candidate, but teams are no longer building their rosters by having a top 6 with skill and bottom 6 of grinders. We're likely to continue to see low-paid grinders take smaller roles on scoring lines, as that's how Babcock and a large part of the league does it these days.

 

[Trapper]

Marleau is for sure the most likely candidate, but teams are no longer building their rosters by having a top 6 with skill and bottom 6 of grinders. We're likely to continue to see low-paid grinders take smaller roles on scoring lines, as that's how Babcock and a large part of the league does it these days.

Yes gone are the days of the top 6, bottom 6.
It's top 9 + 4th line.
Personally I'd have 4 lines like that but salary cap prevents it.
Top 9 and your 4th line is defensively sound, physical and can PK. They have enough skill to keep the opposition pinned in their zone and can cycle.
People are to hung up on this player isn't a 3rd line center. Well on a Cup winning team he could be.
It doesn't matter if it's Matthews/Nylander/Kadri or Kadri/Matthews/Nylander.
You want to build balanced lines and a team that can play skill, play D, play physical, play fast, whatever the opposition deems to play. You can match whatever opponent and style comes at you.
That's top 9 + 4 in today's league.

 

[meefer]

Not by his coach, who really matters here, as he controls the situation.

Hyman is a valuable member of the Leafs, and makes any line he is on more effective through his work ethic shift after shift.

That said Marleau at > $6 mil is not here to be a role player, but a leader and offensive threat, and most likely pushes Hyman down the line-up.

Indeed he is and which is why Babs likes the guy so much. My point was simply that many contributors here love to rag on Hyman: 'can't finish to save his life, held Matthews back, is a 4th liner (as if that is a bad thing - a solid 4th liner is a wonderful player to have) etc. The guy was a rookie, playing with two other rookies (as talented as they are) in a role determined by the coach, which he followed to a t, had a poor year's shooting %, and yet helped the Leafs game after game. If he continues this year to provide the effort and effectiveness he did last year I'd hope the fan base appreciates him more. He deserves some accolades.

 

[Kiwi]

Images how much better that line would be if it had someone that could finish on the LW now they do

Hyman was doing a lot of dirty work for those other two boys

It's not the worst thing to have the puck on Matthews and Nylander's sticks instead of their LW no matter who that player is

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Hyman was doing a lot of dirty work for those other two boys

It's not the worst thing to have the puck on Matthews and Nylander's sticks instead of their LW no matter who that player is

See the issue isn't Hyman getting Matthews the puck, he can score, he finished #2 in goals. The issue is when Matthews get Hyman the puck, Hyman tends to fail Zach Hyman's lack of finish was the difference between 69 points and 85 for Matthews last season.

 

[Kiwi]

See the issue isn't Hyman getting Matthews the puck, he can score, he finished #2 in goals. The issue is when Matthews get Hyman the puck, Hyman tends to fail Zach Hyman's lack of finish was the difference between 69 points and 85 for Matthews last season.

I'm less worried about Matthews point totals and more interested in that lines effectiveness

I'm the first to admit Hyman has hands of stone but that line was beyond good for the last third of the season and during the playoffs

Hyman is playing his part doing a lot of defensive work and fighting for the puck in the corners so those two kids can do what they do best and not waste there time along the boards winning the puck in the first place

For all Marleau's scoring prowess I'm not sure he's suitable for the other jobs that Hyman excels at which suites the other two's style of game

 

[Mikeyg]

Yes gone are the days of the top 6, bottom 6.
It's top 9 + 4th line.
Personally I'd have 4 lines like that but salary cap prevents it.
Top 9 and your 4th line is defensively sound, physical and can PK. They have enough skill to keep the opposition pinned in their zone and can cycle.
People are to hung up on this player isn't a 3rd line center. Well on a Cup winning team he could be.
It doesn't matter if it's Matthews/Nylander/Kadri or Kadri/Matthews/Nylander.
You want to build balanced lines and a team that can play skill, play D, play physical, play fast, whatever the opposition deems to play. You can match whatever opponent and style comes at you.
That's top 9 + 4 in today's league.

Marleau is for sure the most likely candidate, but teams are no longer building their rosters by having a top 6 with skill and bottom 6 of grinders. We're likely to continue to see low-paid grinders take smaller roles on scoring lines, as that's how Babcock and a large part of the league does it these days.

Disagree with you guys. Not based on principle, but based on proportions. Going forward matthews is going to be playing more than the 18/19 hes getting now, he will start averaging 23+ as we start hemorrhaging players. Its going to become more and more of a top 6 over time, you'll see that.

 

[Menzinger]

Disagree with you guys. Not based on principle, but based on proportions. Going forward matthews is going to be playing more than the 18/19 hes getting now, he will start averaging 23+ as we start hemorrhaging players. Its going to become more and more of a top 6 over time, you'll see that.

That will depend on talent via prospect promotion.

If Hunters picks don't turn into NHLers, then he'll be forced to change the team's structure, but seems he does prefer three scoring lines with different usage among them.

 

[Gallagbi]

Disagree with you guys. Not based on principle, but based on proportions. Going forward matthews is going to be playing more than the 18/19 hes getting now, he will start averaging 23+ as we start hemorrhaging players. Its going to become more and more of a top 6 over time, you'll see that.

Does any forward average 22+/game, let alone 23?

 

[Menzinger]

And Babcock also doesn't seem to be s fan of overplaying forwards. I remember he commented in an interview that he thought the Oilers were really overplaying McDavid

 

[biotk]

Disagree with you guys. Not based on principle, but based on proportions. Going forward matthews is going to be playing more than the 18/19 hes getting now, he will start averaging 23+ as we start hemorrhaging players. Its going to become more and more of a top 6 over time, you'll see that.

I just don't see that happening. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were getting 20 minutes plus or minus 30 seconds for most of Babcock's tenure. They were a bit higher in 2007-08, but that was due to massive PP time, which no longer exists in the current NHL.

 

[biotk]

Does any forward average 22+/game, let alone 23?

No. Not anymore. Currently, it would take too many 5v5 minutes to get one there, which are much harder minutes than PP minutes, and would risk injury. So it would serve little purpose.

The last time a forward played 22+ minutes was during the lockout shortened 2012-13 season (Stamkos 22:01 and Kovalchuk 24:44 - his season was further shortened by injuries). Kovalchuk, Stamkos, Ovechkin and St. Louis were players who often played 22+ during the late 2000s and early 2010s, but this was also a much higher PP ice-time era. The last time a forward played 25+ minutes was Bure in 2001-02 (who incidentally played just shy of 27 minutes a game the year before).

 

[MarMarSab3]

Marleau Matthews Nylander
JVR Bozak Marner
Komarov Kadri Brown
Martin Moore Hyman

 

[Dzonna]

No way it should be Brown
The guy scored 20 goals as a rookie on a checking line

I'd like to see the Kadri line stay as is as well




The Matthews line was bloody good the last 3rd of the season and into the playoffs
Hyman played his part in that as limited as he may be

Thank you. This is the most truthful thing I have read on here all day haha. Anyone who has ever played a sport knows how valuable people like Hyman are. I wouldn't break up the first line just yet. Continue with their torrid run they left off with going into the post season. Marleau's experience will allow him to be slotted as needed in any given night vs any given team. You won't see him on a set line. This year will be exciting

 

[Damisoph]

Sorry but until I see Hyman off Matthews line, I don't believe Babs will take him off. That's why I voted Uncle Leo.

My guess is Marleau plays with Kadri.

 

[biotk]

I wonder if we could see Marleau-Matthews-Hyman.

The problem with Hyman was that he couldn't convert his many HDCFs, whereas Nylander didn't go to those high danger areas often enough. Marleau does both.

iHDCF/60:
Matthews: 6.08
Marleau: 5.15 (this was top 7 in the league)
Hyman: 4.34 (this despite being reported at top 3 with a couple months to go in the season was around 25th or so)
Brown: 3.00
Nylander: 2.53

 

[Clark4Ever]

Marleau Matthews Nylander
JVR Bozak Marner
Komarov Kadri Brown
Martin Moore Hyman

This is my preferred lineup as well. That would also give us a strong 4th line to compliment a balanced top 9.

And with guys like Kapanen, Soshnikov, and Leivo waiting in the wings, we will have the depth to fill holes in case of injuries.

 

[TML Dynasty]

This is my preferred lineup as well. That would also give us a strong 4th line to compliment a balanced top 9.

And with guys like Kapanen, Soshnikov, and Leivo waiting in the wings, we will have the depth to fill holes in case of injuries.

I like it. Really would like to break up JVR and Bozak to see if we could spread out the defensive liabilities, but I want to see Marleau with Matthews and that's the only switch that makes sense. Id start with this

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Sorry but until I see Hyman off Matthews line, I don't believe Babs will take him off. That's why I voted Uncle Leo.

My guess is Marleau plays with Kadri.

My only qualm is that Marleau isn't as effective without the puck as Komarov. While I agree that he's above average defensively, Komarov is far more consistent when it comes to using his body and overall grittiness.

He is a better scorer, though, but Kadri had a 30 goal season last season. Up against top lines, that's solid performance.

 

[frizzer1]

My thoughts...
We don't know yet what Marleau has left...
Has Kapanen not earned a spot in this lineup?
And sure the Mathews line played well last year....but we never saw mathews without Hyman so we don't know just how good he could have been.

 

[Mikeyg]

I just don't see that happening. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were getting 20 minutes plus or minus 30 seconds for most of Babcock's tenure. They were a bit higher in 2007-08, but that was due to massive PP time, which no longer exists in the current NHL.

Does any forward average 22+/game, let alone 23?

That will depend on talent via prospect promotion.

If Hunters picks don't turn into NHLers, then he'll be forced to change the team's structure, but seems he does prefer three scoring lines with different usage among them.

Just wait and see, I will be proven right over the long term here. You guys are too polarized right now. One guy implies that all of the production which we lose via free agency will be replaced by draftees. This isn't likely for obvious reasons. One guy is stuck on the number 23, rather than the actual idea which it represents. One guy even compared Datsyuk and Zetterberg to our current situation of Matthews and Kadri/Nylander which is just a terrible projection.

You guys just aren't understanding that an equivalent of the bozak line, where you have 9 mill worth the vets and a world class rookie on it is not going to be possible for this team over the long term. When Matthews is getting paid 10, marner and nylander being paid around 6.5-7, where is the 5 million for a bozak quality player going to come from? it likely isn't possible. Now, you guys are saying that a solution to this is to hope that our picks develop into a cost controlled bozak, which is statistically unlikely to happen, but if it does that would be nice. What I am saying, is the much much much much much likely scenario is that we will be forced to develop a top heavy forward group over time. We're not likely going to be able to afford a deep third line going forward. Therefore, in order to keep our production up, our top 6 players are going to be forced to play a bit more. In doing that, you effectively create a top 6/top heavy type of team. IMO that has nothing to do with the coaching style, but everything to do with the contract situation. You also can't compare it to detroit. Babs said himself that dats/zets were 2 elite 1c's. Our current team doesn't have that. We have a world class 1c, and a very good 2 c in kadri, so I don't see it as a strong comparison right now.

 

[Menzinger]

Just wait and see, I will be proven right over the long term here. You guys are too polarized right now. One guy implies that all of the production which we lose via free agency will be replaced by draftees. This isn't likely for obvious reasons. One guy is stuck on the number 23, rather than the actual idea which it represents. One guy even compared Datsyuk and Zetterberg to our current situation of Matthews and Kadri/Nylander which is just a terrible projection.

You guys just aren't understanding that an equivalent of the bozak line, where you have 9 mill worth the vets and a world class rookie on it is not going to be possible for this team over the long term. When Matthews is getting paid 10, marner and nylander being paid around 6.5-7, where is the 5 million for a bozak quality player going to come from? it likely isn't possible. Now, you guys are saying that a solution to this is to hope that our picks develop into a cost controlled bozak, which is statistically unlikely to happen, but if it does that would be nice. What I am saying, is the much much much much much likely scenario is that we will be forced to develop a top heavy forward group over time. We're not likely going to be able to afford a deep third line going forward. Therefore, in order to keep our production up, our top 6 players are going to be forced to play a bit more. In doing that, you effectively create a top 6/top heavy type of team. IMO that has nothing to do with the coaching style, but everything to do with the contract situation. You also can't compare it to detroit. Babs said himself that dats/zets were 2 elite 1c's. Our current team doesn't have that. We have a world class 1c, and a very good 2 c in kadri, so I don't see it as a strong comparison right now.

I think most folks understand that guys like JVR/Bozak aren't going to be here long term due to a cap crunch - the issue is can similar caliber players enter the lineup via prospect graduation.

Bozak/JVR gone by end of season, replaced by skilled prospects like Kapanen.

From a structural standpoint I don't think things will change all that much. Babcock will still want scoring threats on three lines, but the makeup of those lines will change. Ie likely eventually Marner, matthews and Nylander are all on their own lines like the Pens doll woth Crosby/Malkin/Kessel.