Line Combos: If Marleau plays in the top nine, which forward from 16/17 Leafs is pushed down?

[ToneDog]

The debate rages. LOL.
You'd think we had 12 Martin's in the lineup. We have one. On the 4th line. To play heavy, to do the things that a NHL game requires.
I like Martin on the 4th as much as I like a Polak on the 3rd pair.
It's great when Marner or Rielly PK but I don't want them blocking shots over and over. That's for Polak. I also want to make sure someone doesn't have carte blanche on Andersen when it's time to move a player out of the crease, that's Polak as well. Hainsey too.

I have a feeling that we are going to be pleasantly surprised by the output of the 4th line this year.

 

[one77]

I have a feeling that we are going to be pleasantly surprised by the output of the 4th line this year.

Agreed. Forward core is so deep that our 4th line will be very solid.

 

[Mess]

Had the exact same thoughts but didn't want to start another sencseless battle when we all know Martin is going to be in the line up.

He has to be to provide some sense of push back for the Leafs who overall are very soft without him and would get manhandled and intimidated.

Martin -- Moore will comprise 2/3rds of the 4th line.. Its the 3rd member is up for debate as to who takes that spot and the most likely choice being the player pushed out of the top 9 to accommodate Marleau.

 

[Morbo]

It is baffling that poster after poster still proposes lineups in which Martin is not playing. It is not happening. Zero chance. Babs is not going to sacrifice the protection of his young stars to play a 4th line that scores a couple more goals.

Lol what protection??

Martin's most memorable fight last season was him getting destroyed. He doesn't protect anyone from anything.

 

[Warden of the North]

Lol what protection??

Martin's most memorable fight last season was him getting destroyed. He doesn't protect anyone from anything.

I can distinctly remember Marner commenting how having Martin on the ice is important to the team.

I mean its a players opinion but it must count for something.

 

[biotk]

Lol what protection??

Leafs management and players feel that it is there. So that means a whole lot more than what some random fans think.

Babs has said that the year before the team was getting smacked around and taking a constant stream of cheap shots. They knew that they had a responsibility to protect their upcoming young stars from that abuse and the team feels that Martin has done so.

If Martin protects the Leafs young stars from abuse and threats of injury that is worth a hell of a lot more than a couple more goals from a different 4th line winger. If the Leafs young stars are playing more confidently and avoiding injury and constant wear and tear from abuse they will score a hell of a lot more additional goals than the leagues best 4th line winger could hope to.

If you are right about Martin not protecting anyone then he would not have played 82 games last year.

 

[Polaris1010]

Leafs management and players feel that it is there. So that means a whole lot more than what some random fans think.

As we approach September and training camp, you know, one's mind focus more clearly on hockey.

There is no way that Martin is left out of the line up.

Martin - Moore - Leivo.

We can already call Leivo position as the dog house. Whoever is in the dog house, will play that spot on the 4th line in place of Leivo.

JVR - Matthews - Hyman
Marleau - Nylander - Kapenan
Komarov - Kadir - Brown
Marin - Moore - Leivo

That is a pretty damn good lineup, and Marner is not even in there. Guess Kapenan will have to start in the minors again, or Leivo in the dog house dog house.

Everything still rests on what they intend to do with Bozak.

 

[Polaris1010]

1st line the - Matthews - line
2nd line - - -
3rd line Komarov - Kadri - Brown
4th line Martin - Moore -

Who is actually on the first two lines, totally up in the air right now.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Leafs management and players feel that it is there. So that means a whole lot more than what some random fans think.

Babs has said that the year before the team was getting smacked around and taking a constant stream of cheap shots. They knew that they had a responsibility to protect their upcoming young stars from that abuse and the team feels that Martin has done so.

If Martin protects the Leafs young stars from abuse and threats of injury that is worth a hell of a lot more than a couple more goals from a different 4th line winger. If the Leafs young stars are playing more confidently and avoiding injury and constant wear and tear from abuse they will score a hell of a lot more additional goals than the leagues best 4th line winger could hope to.

If you are right about Martin not protecting anyone then he would not have played 82 games last year.

Disagree. He plays partially because the perceived notion of protection, not the actual measured amount of protection. It's just human nature that when they have a well-liked teammate instructed to that role, they'll attribute him with developments that might have happened anyway. As I've said before, stats delving into this topic found no evidence that the role had any such effect.

I'm not saying it's without value though, as you touched on earlier. I definitely think a team feels better about receiving some abuse if they, as a team, also dish it out back. It's the difference between being in a fight, and being the victim of one.

 

[Apollo Leaf]

Marleau - Matthews - Nylander
JVR - Bozak - Marner
Leivo - Kadri - Brown
Hyman - Moore - Komarov

Extra: Martin

Kapanen starts in the AHL for the time being.

 

[Battle Lin]

i really think kapanen has jumped leivo in our depth charts, leivo still makes team as extra cause of waivers though, kappy gets first injury call up imo especially if a PKer goes down

 

[Morbo]

I can distinctly remember Marner commenting how having Martin on the ice is important to the team.

I mean its a players opinion but it must count for something.

cool but I was talking about more tangible and observable things actually taking place on the ice, like standing up for our guys and beating up people who run them. we already know Marner has a mancrush on Martin, we've all seen the pics on social media.

 

[saltming]

cool but I was talking about more tangible and observable things actually taking place on the ice, like standing up for our guys and beating up people who run them. we already know Marner has a mancrush on Martin, we've all seen the pics on social media.

The bplded seems selfexplanitory in the supporting argument column.

 

[ACC1224]

cool but I was talking about more tangible and observable things actually taking place on the ice, like standing up for our guys and beating up people who run them. we already know Marner has a mancrush on Martin, we've all seen the pics on social media.

We observe him on the ice every night, there must be a reason for it.

 

[Morbo]

We observe him on the ice every night, there must be a reason for it.

yeah they gave him a 4 year deal

 

[The CyNick]

I can distinctly remember Marner commenting how having Martin on the ice is important to the team.

I mean its a players opinion but it must count for something.

The people on here who don't watch games and need a spreadsheet to form an opinion on hockey don't get it. It also helps that most people who comment on hockey the most have played the least, and therefore don't appreciate the value of a guy like Martin. If you get a chance to talk to people who actually played the game they will tell you what's up.

But until The Athletic posts an article about the benefit of protection players, the stat geeks will scoff at their importance.

 

[The CyNick]

Disagree. He plays partially because the perceived notion of protection, not the actual measured amount of protection. It's just human nature that when they have a well-liked teammate instructed to that role, they'll attribute him with developments that might have happened anyway. As I've said before, stats delving into this topic found no evidence that the role had any such effect.

I'm not saying it's without value though, as you touched on earlier. I definitely think a team feels better about receiving some abuse if they, as a team, also dish it out back. It's the difference between being in a fight, and being the victim of one.

So you think Babcock plays him because Babcock is being fooled by his perceived value?

We should trust your stats delving into this topic over an all time great coach and the players who have played with him? Got it.

Fans today are absolutely epic.

 

[ACC1224]

yeah they gave him a 4 year deal

You think that little of the coach?

 

[biotk]

Leafs go from being the most injured team to the 3rd least injured team. Maybe Martin had nothing to do with that. But the people who make the decisions about who plays think otherwise.

 

[Nithoniniel]

So you think Babcock plays him because Babcock is being fooled by his perceived value?

We should trust your stats delving into this topic over an all time great coach and the players who have played with him? Got it.

Fans today are absolutely epic.

Thank you, nice to hear you think I'm epic. Think that's a bit exaggerated, but I appreciate it.

Explain something to me. If deterrents work, why are their teams just as likely to have injuries due to cheap shots as a team without any? Just happenstance that this important factor doesn't have any tangible effect across all teams through modern history?

Babcock might be fooled, he wouldn't be the first one to get trapped by confirmation bias when it comes to things like this. Or, as an all time great coach, he is aware of what I'm talking about but values Martin because of other things such as the effect that having someone who can push back might have on morale.

In fact, from what I remember of his quotes on the topic, he talks about wanting pushback. He wants there to be consequences if teams take liberties. I don't think he's been talking about determent or protection. Could be wrong though.

Leafs go from being the most injured team to the 3rd least injured team. Maybe Martin had nothing to do with that. But the people who make the decisions about who plays think otherwise.

Perhaps. Injury situations tend to vary a lot though, which one should take into account when looking at possible reasons. For example, Edmonton and Jets has played with several guys who fill the deterrent role, and had a ton of injuries last season.

In fact, some of the least injured teams since 09-10 is Chicago, Rangers, Carolina, and Washington. All teams that rarely ever utilize a deterrent player. Few teams have played that kind of players as consistently as Colorado over that period of time, and they are the fourth most injured team.

 

[Morbo]

The people on here who don't watch games and need a spreadsheet to form an opinion on hockey don't get it. It also helps that most people who comment on hockey the most have played the least, and therefore don't appreciate the value of a guy like Martin. If you get a chance to talk to people who actually played the game they will tell you what's up.

But until The Athletic posts an article about the benefit of protection players, the stat geeks will scoff at their importance.

I love the amount of passive aggression packed into this post. Impressive.

What sticks out to me is that nobody seems to be able to make an argument here for Martin that rises above basic appeals to authority. Shame.

Facts are it was a garbage contract that we didn't need, and while Martin may yet prove to be of some use in the remaining 3 years of his deal, he certainly fell well short of the mark in year 1.

 

[biotk]

What sticks out to me is that nobody seems to be able to make an argument here for Martin that rises above basic appeals to authority.

Who cares? The bottom line is that Martin is going to be playing every game on the 4th line unless he is injured. You can sit here and complain about how much he sucks and how bad the contract is and on and on, but I can't see how any of that matters. Do you think that Babcock is going to be reading through this forum some day this fall and say to himself "My god, Martin sucks" and pull him out of the lineup? Do you think that Lou is going to be reading through this forum some day this fall and say to himself "My god, Martin sucks" and trade him or demote him to the AHL?

I don't.

When people post lineups that don't have Martin in them, unless they preface by saying that this is what they want, not they expect, I just ignore what the person has to say.

It reminds me of a scene from the movie from Apollo 13:

Ken Mattingly: Here's the order of what I want to do. I want to power up Guidance, E.C.S., Communications, warm up the pyros for the parachutes and the command module thrusters.

John Aaron, EECOM Arthur: The thrusters are gonna put you over budget on amps, Ken.

Ken Mattingly: Well, they've been sitting at two hundred below for four days, John. They've got to be heated.

John Aaron, EECOM Arthur: Fine. Then trade off the parachutes, something.

Ken Mattingly: Well, if the chutes don't open, then what's the point?

John Aaron, EECOM Arthur: Ken, you're telling me what you need. I'm telling you what we have to work with at this point.

You might want a lineup that doesn't have Martin, but it doesn't matter.

 

[Menzinger]

So you think Babcock plays him because Babcock is being fooled by his perceived value?

We should trust your stats delving into this topic over an all time great coach and the players who have played with him? Got it.

Fans today are absolutely epic.

Coaches like anyone else (even good ones) can be led astray from time to time by preconceived biases. Ie grow up in an evrionment where your constantly told every team needs a tough guy, and low and behold that's going to help from how you see the game once they get put into a position if power.

Then you have the placebo effect, get told you've been protected by player x, nothing happens to you (regardless of what player x does) and it may be natural to fall to correlation rather than causation.

And I see yore falling back on the false claim that anyone who disagrees with you must not watch games. You'd get better responses from folks if you dropped the condescension.

 

[dimi78]

Coaches like anyone else (even good ones) can be led astray from time to time by preconceived biases. Ie grow up in an evrionment where your constantly told every team needs a tough guy, and low and behold that's going to help from how you see the game once they get put into a position if power.

Then you have the placebo effect, get told you've been protected by player x, nothing happens to you (regardless of what player x does) and it may be natural to fall to correlation rather than causation.

And I see yore falling back on the false claim that anyone who disagrees with you must not watch games. You'd get better responses from folks if you dropped the condescension.

The only condescension on these forums comes from fans who only see the top skilled guys as any worth to a winning team.

You do realize that Babcock values Martin the NHL player and not just Martin the tough guy?

What do Martin, Hyman, Komorov & Kadri have in common? If you could answer this you might be able to understand that Babcock's hockey IQ is a lot more complex and deeper than the simplicity in how it get's viewed among fans. Coaching isn't black & white it's grey.

 

[Jeypic]

Their are better players available then Martin. But his intangibles do still hold value. The argument is, In today's NHL do those intangibles hold more value to our team then the superior replacement players differing values? He does, hit. But so does soshnikov. He fights. He's pretty much the only leaf who does. That's the main intangible he brings. Martin doesn't play the penalty kill though, or the powerplay for example. Someone like kapanen has the potential to play both and is NHL ready. Could we be stunting his development by icing Martin instead?

I'm not against keeping Martin in the press box until a team tries to take advantage of us physically.. if it happens, then put him in the lineup the next time we play that team. If it happens often, then start playing him more. But leivo and kapanen deserve to play, and could just as easily hold more value on the ice then Martin does.