If Gretzky played in the O6 era ...

[Theokritos]

Inspired by some of the debates in the Wayne Gretzky overrated thread:

If Gretzky played in the O6 era ...

... what would his stats look like,
and how would he be rated today?​

Click to read more...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Inspired by some of the debates in the Wayne Gretzky overrated thread:

If Gretzky played in the O6 era ...

... what would his stats look like,
and how would he be rated today?​

Interesting small window from the 1979-80 NHL season when a young Wayne Gretzky played the Hartford Whalers with two O6 dinosaurs in Dave Keon and Gordie Howe. The Keon vs Gretzky comparison in these games is interesting.

Four games.

Edmonton 0 at Hartford 4
Hartford 0 at Edmonton 3
Hartford 3 at Edmonton 3
Edmonton 2 at Hartford 6.

Gretzky 1 G, 2 A, only 2 ES points. Keon 1G, 4A with 5ES points. O6 era Gretzky would have to play defensively. Owned by roughly the 5th-10th best overall O6 center, Dave Keon, who in 1979-80 was more than twice Gretzky's age.

Please no small sample size songs.

 

[K Fleur]

The first post is a projection from 5 cherry picked games during Gretzky’s rookie NHL season.

This thread is gonna be great.

 

[Killion]

Inspired by some of the debates in the Wayne Gretzky overrated thread:

If Gretzky played in the O6 era ...

... what would his stats look like,
and how would he be rated today?​

.... yep, was wondering when someone might land on this one and always makes for lively conversation, entertaining day dream... usually beginning with either myself or someone else citing Guyle Fielder.... "Wayne Gretzky before Wayne Gretzky was Gretzky". Ranks 4th All Time in PT's at the professional hockey levels behind only Gretzky, Jagr & Gordie Howe. Fielder unorthodox, an outlier who like Gretzky had tremendous vision, re-thought the game & the way Center should be played, bucking the prescribed "dump n' chase" - defensive "system hockey" (not a new debate exclusive to todays game by any stretch).

Fielder a puck carrier, stick handler extraordinaire, cycling, stepping out of the lanes. Like Gretzky an oddball skater, deceptive, not tremendously fast but hard to hit, Guyle or "Tom" as he was called by his teammates drawing the attention of the oppositions defenders leaving his linemates wide open for that perfect pass. Lithe at just 160-165lbs, small by todays standards at 5'9" but for the era (1951/73) about average, little bit shorter than most but certainly no handicap. He only played 15 NHL games with Chicago, Boston & Detroit, failing to register a point, never given the chance and given the autocratic/draconian nature of the game during his prime instead settled in quite comfortably to the top rungs of Minor Pro where his talents were allowed to shine.

Had he be given every opportunity, paired with some free thinking Wingers, someone behind the bench who like Sather several generations later willing to cut loose the shackles, remove the yolks & blinkers, cut the reins & let er' rip Fielder could well have revolutionized the game at the NHL level in the 50's.... not as dramatically as Wayne Gretzky would have if teleported back in time & given all the rope in the world, complimentary Wingers, open-minded Coaches, far less disciplined.... however like Fielder I'm just not so sure we'd see Wayne Gretzky being given that opportunity at the NHL level during the last 10-20yrs of the 6 team era.

HOWEVER.... all things being relative, and lets say Wayne grows up in Brantford but comes of age in like 1953 or 57 or whenever, well, obviously Detroit or one of the teams would have long since sponsored his minor hockey team in order to acquire his rights, thereafter building his Jr.B & Jr.A teams around him, Gretzky & a number of his Junior teammates with whom he grew up & played stepping into the NHL "whole cloth". And I suspect that yes, he would not only take the League by storm but the game itself, shaking it up, accelerating its fundamental approaches, philosophy... beyond the lab experiment that was the 72 Summit & all that followed.

Thats PROVIDED Wayne Gretzky actually SURVIVED. Make no mistake, there would have been a huge bounty on his head from Junior on up & ya, the game far more viscous during that era, into the 70's. Cheap shotted & injured badly, chased down & beaten to a pulp so one would hope that at some point along the rung he'd have been taken into a gym & been taught how to defend himself, how to take & throw a punch etc. When you were that good back in the day, you also had to be tough. Wayne would need to have toughened up & given the earlier era he likely would have.

 

[daver]

Gretzky 1 G, 2 A, only 2 ES points. Keon 1G, 4A with 5ES points. O6 era Gretzky would have to play defensively. Owned by roughly the 5th-10th best overall O6 center, Dave Keon, who in 1979-80 was more than twice Gretzky's age.

Can you explain what this means. How did Wayne not play defensively during his career?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Can you explain what this means. How did Wayne not play defensively during his career?

Any way you look at it. From the apologist position that Gretzky's offence was so superior that he did not have to play defence to the reality that against certain centers he would be outplayed.

1979-80 NHL season. Hartford and Edmonton, two teams that barely made the playoffs, Keon a minus player, Gretzky a plus player but the difference was not a reflection of their scoring. Keon in the four games owned Gretzky because he played an overall game, knowing where Gretzky was, taking himself out of the play defensively so Keon exploited this edge as illustrated.

O6 era Gretzky would need an overall game otherwise he would get exploited in a fashion where he could not compensate with pure offence.

 

[blogofmike]

By the same token, Keon was -4 with 0 points in games against Bobby Smith, who was +4 with 8 points (4 at ES).

So I guess Bobby Smith would have been Hart-calibre in the O6. At the very least this means Smith was better than Beliveau...

 

[Canadiens1958]

By the same token, Keon was -4 with 0 points in games against Bobby Smith, who was +4 with 8 points (4 at ES).

So I guess Bobby Smith would have been Hart-calibre in the O6. At the very least this means Smith was better than Beliveau...

No it means Bobby Smith had an overall game, so the opposing center had to play him the whole shift

 

[Doctor No]

Please no small sample size songs.

Well, I can promise you that I won't write any songs about it. Maybe a limerick.

You honestly don't find this to be cherry-picking?

 

[Canadiens1958]

.... yep, was wondering when someone might land on this one and always makes for lively conversation, entertaining day dream... usually beginning with either myself or someone else citing Guyle Fielder.... "Wayne Gretzky before Wayne Gretzky was Gretzky". Ranks 4th All Time in PT's at the professional hockey levels behind only Gretzky, Jagr & Gordie Howe. Fielder unorthodox, an outlier who like Gretzky had tremendous vision, re-thought the game & the way Center should be played, bucking the prescribed "dump n' chase" - defensive "system hockey" (not a new debate exclusive to todays game by any stretch).

Fielder a puck carrier, stick handler extraordinaire, cycling, stepping out of the lanes. Like Gretzky an oddball skater, deceptive, not tremendously fast but hard to hit, Guyle or "Tom" as he was called by his teammates drawing the attention of the oppositions defenders leaving his linemates wide open for that perfect pass. Lithe at just 160-165lbs, small by todays standards at 5'9" but for the era (1951/73) about average, little bit shorter than most but certainly no handicap. He only played 15 NHL games with Chicago, Boston & Detroit, failing to register a point, never given the chance and given the autocratic/draconian nature of the game during his prime instead settled in quite comfortably to the top rungs of Minor Pro where his talents were allowed to shine.

Had he be given every opportunity, paired with some free thinking Wingers, someone behind the bench who like Sather several generations later willing to cut loose the shackles, remove the yolks & blinkers, cut the reins & let er' rip Fielder could well have revolutionized the game at the NHL level in the 50's.... not as dramatically as Wayne Gretzky would have if teleported back in time & given all the rope in the world, complimentary Wingers, open-minded Coaches, far less disciplined.... however like Fielder I'm just not so sure we'd see Wayne Gretzky being given that opportunity at the NHL level during the last 10-20yrs of the 6 team era.

HOWEVER.... all things being relative, and lets say Wayne grows up in Brantford but comes of age in like 1953 or 57 or whenever, well, obviously Detroit or one of the teams would have long since sponsored his minor hockey team in order to acquire his rights, thereafter building his Jr.B & Jr.A teams around him, Gretzky & a number of his Junior teammates with whom he grew up & played stepping into the NHL "whole cloth". And I suspect that yes, he would not only take the League by storm but the game itself, shaking it up, accelerating its fundamental approaches, philosophy... beyond the lab experiment that was the 72 Summit & all that followed.

Thats PROVIDED Wayne Gretzky actually SURVIVED. Make no mistake, there would have been a huge bounty on his head from Junior on up & ya, the game far more viscous during that era, into the 70's. Cheap shotted & injured badly, chased down & beaten to a pulp so one would hope that at some point along the rung he'd have been taken into a gym & been taught how to defend himself, how to take & throw a punch etc. When you were that good back in the day, you also had to be tough. Wayne would need to have toughened up & given the earlier era he likely would have.

Fair number of small, quick, O6 centers managed quite well during the era. Henri Richard, Ralph Backstrom, Phil Goyette, Dave Keon, Billy Harris, Murray Oliver, Norm Ullman, Stan Mikita, Pit Martin to name a few. They had an overall game. Would play the other center hard the whole shift.

Gretzky played the opposing center soft in his own team's defensive zone. This would be the biggest change Gretzky would have to make.

 

[daver]

Gretzky played the opposing center soft in his own team's defensive zone. This would be the biggest change Gretzky would have to make.

So what would his numbers look like?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Well, I can promise you that I won't write any songs about it. Maybe a limerick.

You honestly don't find this to be cherry-picking?

Not when it is the only connection we have between Gretzky and the O6 era.

How many games would it take to recognize that Gretzky always played the opposing center soft in his team's defensive zone? Four or his whole career you had the same approach.

Difference is that you have an O6 veteran center who recognized what was happening and adjusted accordingly. This does not take games but a few shifts.

O6 era centers would have picked-up on this just as quickly. Difference is that by 1979-80 very few NHL centers had an overall game and a fair number played soft. Usual suspects, Pierre Larouche, Marcel Dionne, on down.

 

[Canadiens1958]

So what would his numbers look like?

Depending on how or whether he adjusted. Top 10 potential, Stan Mikita like with a solid overall game. Otherwise variable.

 

[McGuillicuddy]

Any way you look at it. From the apologist position that Gretzky's offence was so superior that he did not have to play defence to the reality that against certain centers he would be outplayed.

1979-80 NHL season. Hartford and Edmonton, two teams that barely made the playoffs, Keon a minus player, Gretzky a plus player but the difference was not a reflection of their scoring. Keon in the four games owned Gretzky because he played an overall game, knowing where Gretzky was, taking himself out of the play defensively so Keon exploited this edge as illustrated.

O6 era Gretzky would need an overall game otherwise he would get exploited in a fashion where he could not compensate with pure offence.

Do you have these games on tape or something? Don't we need to know how much Keon and Howe were on the ice against Gretzky for this comparison to have any validity at all?

Also, let's not forget that you are talking about a rookie Gretzky who was 18/19 years old.

 

[Doctor No]

Not when it is the only connection we have between Gretzky and the O6 era.

Well, no. You make comparisons all the time between players who never faced one another on the ice (as do the rest of us). Comparisons can be made without relying on a ridiculous sample.

And - as it's noted just above me, you don't even know how long Keon/Howe were on the ice against Gretzky.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Do you have these games on tape or something? Don't we need to know how much Keon and Howe were on the ice against Gretzky for this comparison to have any validity at all?

Also, let's not forget that you are talking about a rookie Gretzky who was 18/19 years old.

Gretzky was 18/19 against the rest of the league as well.

Second point - who would you play against Wayne Gretzky other than Dave Keon, one of the best overall centers of all time, defensive whiz on 4 SC teams or Mike Rogers?

 

[Doctor No]

Second point - who would you play against Wayne Gretzky other than Dave Keon, one of the best overall centers of all time, defensive whiz on 4 SC teams or Mike Rogers?

So confirmed; you don't even know if they were on the ice against one another, and yet it's the sole argument that you're bringing to the table.

 

[blogofmike]

Using C58's method, one would have to conclude that going forward in the 1980s, we can expect this Wayne Gretzky kid to score effortlessly against the dynasty Islanders (11 pts/4 GP) and we know he will have his share of struggles against the lowly Vancouver Canucks (3 pts/4 GP).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Well, no. You make comparisons all the time between players who never faced one another on the ice (as do the rest of us). Comparisons can be made without relying on a ridiculous sample.

And - as it's noted just above me, you don't even know how long Keon/Howe were on the ice against Gretzky.

So no sample is valid but a small sample is not, it is ridiculous?

Again from the Hartford roster and options at center who else would you play against Gretzky? Someone like Keon who was the top defensive center on 4 SC teams, covering at least 10 HHOF centers successfully or Mike Rogers who would lose his shadow in a phone booth.

 

[Doctor No]

So no sample is valid but a small sample is not, it is ridiculous?

You're missing the point. Deliberately so.

Feel free to hang your hat on a four-game sample where two players were ancient, one player was a rookie, and you don't even know if they played against one other. Everyone else sees what you're doing.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You're missing the point. Deliberately so.

Feel free to hang your hat on a four-game sample where two players were ancient, one player was a rookie, and you don't even know if they played against one other. Everyone else sees what you're doing.

Not hard to know that they played against each other. Official NHL game summary data released from archives:

January 2, 1980, Hartford 3 at Edmonton 3, Gretzky 1A on the PP, -2. Keon, +2 on 2 ES strength points(1G,1A) had to be playing against each other, matched up. Cannot escape it:

Hartford Whalers - Edmonton Oilers - January 2nd, 1980

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Stan Mikita won some Art Rosses without "playing defensively" (that came later in his career). I think a protege like Gretzky would be fine. It may or may not take him longer to break into the league than he did in real life, depending on the team; obviously breaking in with the Canadiens is tougher than the Rangers.

That said, I think a true genius like Gretzky would be recognized sooner rather than later. Bobby Orr was a Norris finalist as an 18 year old rookie in the last season of the O6, after all.

 

[MeHateHe]

For the eight hundredth time, what made Gretzky special was that he had a unique vision for the game. He was always around when things started to happen. Would he have put up the numbers he did during the ultra-high scoring era in the 1980s? Probably not, but given that he had stellar puck-handling skills, was a very good skater, had a great shot and was the best playmaker of any era, that ability to be in the right place to be part of a scoring opportunity means he would likely had similar dominance no matter what era he played in.

The argument that he 'only' benefited from playing in a high-scoring era is only made by people who never saw the guy play.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Stan Mikita won some Art Rosses without "playing defensively" (that came later in his career). I think a protege like Gretzky would be fine. It may or may not take him longer to break into the league than he did in real life, depending on the team; obviously breaking in with the Canadiens is tougher than the Rangers.

That said, I think a true genius like Gretzky would be recognized sooner rather than later. Bobby Orr was a Norris finalist as an 18 year old rookie in the last season of the O6, after all.

1959-60, first full NHL season, Stan Mikita definitely showed defensive basics and potential:

NHL.com - Stats

Orr was strong defensively on a last place O6 Bruin team. Archival data supports this.

 

[Canadiens1958]

For the eight hundredth time, what made Gretzky special was that he had a unique vision for the game. He was always around when things started to happen. Would he have put up the numbers he did during the ultra-high scoring era in the 1980s? Probably not, but given that he had stellar puck-handling skills, was a very good skater, had a great shot and was the best playmaker of any era, that ability to be in the right place to be part of a scoring opportunity means he would likely had similar dominance no matter what era he played in.

The argument that he 'only' benefited from playing in a high-scoring era is only made by people who never saw the guy play.

So is the point that in the O6 era he would have applied this vision defensively as well?