If Gretzky played in the O6 era ...

Asheville

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Feb 1, 2018
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Canadiens1958,

You say playing a complete game would have made Gretzky a greater player. Is this correct?

If so, could you please define "a complete game," and do you think playing that way would have taken away from other attributes of his game which some historians admire enough to grade him as the sport's greatest.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Canadiens1958,

You say playing a complete game would have made Gretzky a greater player. Is this correct?

If so, could you please define "a complete game," and do you think playing that way would have taken away from other attributes of his game which some historians admire enough to grade him as the sport's greatest.

Yes.

Complete game. Doing everything required from a center offensively and defensively all over the ice.

Please name and cite your phantom historians, otherwise no other questions will be entertained from you.

Here on the board in the ATD it is rare that Gretzky is picked #1 overall by board members.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/140771831/

So your view is definitely lacking verifiable evidence.
 

shazariahl

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
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But he did do everything that was required of him defensively, because his coaches (especially in Edmonton) deliberately teamed him with people like Kurri who could cover the center role in their own zone, and free Gretzky to take the winger role in their zone. Just because YOU wanted more defensively from him doesn't mean he was negligent in his defensive duties. Gretzky was 165 lbs when he broke into the league. Asking him to clear people in front of the net would be stupid, since he would have been ill-suited for the task.

I realize no one is ever going to change your mind; you don't even consider Gretzky a top 10 playoff performer while most people consider him either #1 or 2, so clearly the two of us will never find common ground on this topic. But I don't think its fair to expect Gretzky to play a game that HIS OWN COACHES didn't expect him to play. He was the greatest offensive player of all time, a 1st team PKer for the majority of his career, and was decent but not great defensively. He was, however, a beast in the regular season, playoffs, and international play. He was also very durable, especially compared to Orr and Lemieux, and was 14th all time when he retired in games played.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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What would Gretzky needed to have done to be the greatest player ever?

I like this question.

For me, all he would have needed to do was attempt to play his position defensively and be reasonably effective at it. That is, average defensively. I think it would have made his production somewhat less extreme, but it would also have resulted in less scoring against his teams as well as more winning.

Just my opinion.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Yes.

Complete game. Doing everything required from a center offensively and defensively all over the ice.

Please name and cite your phantom historians, otherwise no other questions will be entertained from you.

Here on the board in the ATD it is rare that Gretzky is picked #1 overall by board members.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/140771831/

So your view is definitely lacking verifiable evidence.

Our draft isn't a ranking of players. It's a team building exercise, and not having a strong D is usually a death sentence.

So don't use our draft to support your flimsy arguments
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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But he did do everything that was required of him defensively, because his coaches (especially in Edmonton) deliberately teamed him with people like Kurri who could cover the center role in their own zone, and free Gretzky to take the winger role in their zone. Just because YOU wanted more defensively from him doesn't mean he was negligent in his defensive duties. Gretzky was 165 lbs when he broke into the league. Asking him to clear people in front of the net would be stupid, since he would have been ill-suited for the task.

I realize no one is ever going to change your mind; you don't even consider Gretzky a top 10 playoff performer while most people consider him either #1 or 2, so clearly the two of us will never find common ground on this topic. But I don't think its fair to expect Gretzky to play a game that HIS OWN COACHES didn't expect him to play. He was the greatest offensive player of all time, a 1st team PKer for the majority of his career, and was decent but not great defensively. He was, however, a beast in the regular season, playoffs, and international play. He was also very durable, especially compared to Orr and Lemieux, and was 14th all time when he retired in games played.

Gretzky needed Kurri to take the center role defensively. That implies he had to cover up a weakness in Gretzky's game. Yet you also say Gretzky was a decent defensive player.

You say Gretzky was small, but smaller players handled the center's defensive responsibilities throughout hockey. Not a good excuse.
 

ResilientBeast

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And why would that be?

I have zero knowledge of the ATD, so this is an honest question.

If anything it's ATD norms at this point. A few Gretzky teams have gone far after they managed to salvage together average D groups.

A Gretzky team is quite formulaic, you need a puck moving D and a sniping winger. Both of which come up at interesting times.

Ultimately Orr and even Howe are easier teams to build just because they allow more latitude in decision making.

That doesn't mean a Gretzky team is necessarily worse, it just doesn't allow for your plan to be easily adaptable.

And since the talent level of ATD is so far beyond the standard NHL season you need a to have a certain level of competence at all areas to really make an impact.
 

ResilientBeast

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This is why using our draft as a barometer for anything is a garbage exercise and reeks of a weakness in someone's argument.

Far too many factors involved for it to be a straight ranking
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
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Our draft isn't a ranking of players. It's a team building exercise, and not having a strong D is usually a death sentence.

So don't use our draft to support your flimsy arguments

You have reinforced my point about Gretzky not having a strong D or defensive game while underlining the resulting team building difficulties.

Thank you.

BTW - your draft has co-opted a fair number of my points that were previously giggled at. Let's start with the "small rink" phenomena - Sturminator about Buffalo and Gilbert P and make a list.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
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You have reinforced my point about Gretzky not having a strong D or defensive game while underlining the resulting team building difficulties.

Thank you.

BTW - your draft has co-opted a fair number of my points that were previously giggled at. Let's start with the "small rink" phenomena - Sturminator about Buffalo and Gilbert P and make a list.

1) No it doesn't Orr goes first because he's actually a defenseman. there's a reason he goes top 3 and Henri Richard goes in the 50s
2) That's not even remotely the same discussion. That is simply discussing a phenomena related to a players production. It is not the same as you saying Gretzky wouldn't fair well in the O6
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
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If anything it's ATD norms at this point. A few Gretzky teams have gone far after they managed to salvage together average D groups.

A Gretzky team is quite formulaic, you need a puck moving D and a sniping winger. Both of which come up at interesting times.

Ultimately Orr and even Howe are easier teams to build just because they allow more latitude in decision making.

That doesn't mean a Gretzky team is necessarily worse, it just doesn't allow for your plan to be easily adaptable.

And since the talent level of ATD is so far beyond the standard NHL season you need a to have a certain level of competence at all areas to really make an impact.

Yet how many have won with Gretzky and out of how many ATDs?

You overlook the key element. Compensation winger for the center defensive responsibilities that will otherwise not be filled. Once Kurri gets picked, despite a greater pool of players such a player no longer exists.

Same problem of adaptability exists in a regular NHL season where a team is formulaic. Goalie centric, Price gets hurt and kiss the season away.
 

ResilientBeast

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Yet how many have won with Gretzky and out of how many ATDs?

You overlook the key element. Compensation winger for the center defensive responsibilities that will otherwise not be filled. Once Kurri gets picked, despite a greater pool of players such a player no longer exists.

Same problem of adaptability exists in a regular NHL season where a team is formulaic. Goalie centric, Price gets hurt and kiss the season away.

Your premise is the team didn't win because of Gretzky, which is fundamentally unsound.

Since the ATD was rebranded and changed to one annually. There have been 8 complete ones 2010-2017 (These include more of the people you'd be familiar with from the HOH the old guard has mostly moved on, and we know a lot more about players)

This is the list of first picks by ATD champions
2010 - Howe
2011 - Messier
2012 - Gretzky
2013 - Bourque
2014 - Kelly
2015 - Howe
2016 - Harvey
2017 - Harvey

Notes, the Howe teams are teams where Howe goes 4th after Lemieux and they I believe are undefeated. Meaning if you get Howe at 4th you will at least be a conference finalist.
Note, draft size has also fluctuated over the years.

You are incorrect with the Kurri assumption other wingers exist, and Kurri usually gets picked for too early just to be reunited with Gretzky.

Of the conventional top 4 Gretzky is the only one besides Howe to win.

You're grossly underestimating the dynamics of the draft and it's weakening and cheapening your already flimsy argument
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
17,561
Connecticut
If anything it's ATD norms at this point. A few Gretzky teams have gone far after they managed to salvage together average D groups.

A Gretzky team is quite formulaic, you need a puck moving D and a sniping winger. Both of which come up at interesting times.

Ultimately Orr and even Howe are easier teams to build just because they allow more latitude in decision making.

That doesn't mean a Gretzky team is necessarily worse, it just doesn't allow for your plan to be easily adaptable.

And since the talent level of ATD is so far beyond the standard NHL season you need a to have a certain level of competence at all areas to really make an impact.

Thanks!

Makes sense.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
17,561
Connecticut
1) No it doesn't Orr goes first because he's actually a defenseman. there's a reason he goes top 3 and Henri Richard goes in the 50s
2) That's not even remotely the same discussion. That is simply discussing a phenomena related to a players production. It is not the same as you saying Gretzky wouldn't fair well in the O6

Orr goes first but his teams haven't won. Any obvious explanation?
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
20,020
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
1) No it doesn't Orr goes first because he's actually a defenseman. there's a reason he goes top 3 and Henri Richard goes in the 50s
2) That's not even remotely the same discussion. That is simply discussing a phenomena related to a players production. It is not the same as you saying Gretzky wouldn't fair well in the O6

You miss the point completely.

Real hockey. At various points in certain skaters careers teams were faced with the decision of playing them at forward, usually center or playing them on defence.

This happened with Orr, pre junior the decision was made to keep him on defence. Red Kelly started as a defenceman moved to forward for good once traded to the Leafs, Canadiens moved J.C. Tremblay, Serge Savard, Larry Robinson, Carol Vadnais to defence. As did other teams trying to find Orr lite in their system, the draft. Some of the more successful efforts Mark Howe, Vlad Konstantinov.Basic reasons - a defenceman will easily see 30% more ice time, 3 forward line - 2 dman pairing rotation means the star d-man plays with all forward lines. The opposition cannot assign a dedicated checker like they can to a forward.

Three reasons why a team will not move a forward back to defence. Cannot skate backwards well enough. Glut at the position. Cannot/will not play defensively.

30% extra ice time for Gretzky would have been beneficial to a team? Definitely could skate backwards well enough.
 
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ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
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Orr goes first but his teams haven't won. Any obvious explanation?

without looking at the gms, I'd guess maybe the gms who picked him (I don't mean to be rude)

I picked Orr once first and it might've been the worst team I've made out of 5

The ATD isn't an "observable" phenomena it's a very dynamic systems where plenty can change. for example this year it's the Orr GM vs 23 other people who are all looking out for themselves
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Your premise is the team didn't win because of Gretzky, which is fundamentally unsound.

Since the ATD was rebranded and changed to one annually. There have been 8 complete ones 2010-2017 (These include more of the people you'd be familiar with from the HOH the old guard has mostly moved on, and we know a lot more about players)

This is the list of first picks by ATD champions
2010 - Howe
2011 - Messier
2012 - Gretzky
2013 - Bourque
2014 - Kelly
2015 - Howe
2016 - Harvey
2017 - Harvey

Notes, the Howe teams are teams where Howe goes 4th after Lemieux and they I believe are undefeated. Meaning if you get Howe at 4th you will at least be a conference finalist.
Note, draft size has also fluctuated over the years.

You are incorrect with the Kurri assumption other wingers exist, and Kurri usually gets picked for too early just to be reunited with Gretzky.

Of the conventional top 4 Gretzky is the only one besides Howe to win.

You're grossly underestimating the dynamics of the draft and it's weakening and cheapening your already flimsy argument

Simple statement of fact that in the ATD or in the NHL, teams with Gretzky underperform when it comes to winning. So in the ATD or the NHL there is or was an issue putting together the supporting cast to create winning conditions.

Other wingers always exist in the ATD and the NHL. Does not mean they can play equally well with a specific center.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
without looking at the gms, I'd guess maybe the gms who picked him (I don't mean to be rude)

I picked Orr once first and it might've been the worst team I've made out of 5

The ATD isn't an "observable" phenomena it's a very dynamic systems where plenty can change. for example this year it's the Orr GM vs 23 other people who are all looking out for themselves

And this is different from the NHL in any given year?
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Edmonton
Simple statement of fact that in the ATD or in the NHL, teams with Gretzky underperform when it comes to winning. So in the ATD or the NHL there is or was an issue putting together the supporting cast to create winning conditions.

Other wingers always exist in the ATD and the NHL. Does not mean they can play equally well with a specific center.

Sorry what

How is 1/8 in ATD underperforming and winning 4 cups?
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Edmonton
Additionally I don't believe you've ever participated so why are you trying to explain to me the dynamics of the ATD?
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Same time frame.

Messier won 6 cups in The NHL.

Howe and Harvey. Each were on 2 ATD winning team.

Okay? but 4 cups is hardly underperforming, you're aware it takes a full team right?

Since you seemingly are continuously ignoring the differences between and ATD and NHL season you won't see why your last point makes no sense

Henri Richard has also not won an ATD

Bobby Orr hasn't

Tons of great players haven't but no one uses them not winning ATD in such a malicious way to try and undercut their success.
 

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