Asheville
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If Gretzky played in the O6 era ...
- Thread starter Theokritos
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Canadiens1958
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Wrong, being complete is just a tool like another, it's great when you lack talent. Gretzky's tools are sufficient to make him the greatest, he proved it.
Canadiens1958
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Coining an oxymoron does not help your point.
Gretzky was prolific in certain aspects of hockey.
So much that it made him the most useful ever to achieve the ultimate goal in hockey, help win games, his Hart total is an undeniable proof of that. It's not how many elements you can bring that is important, it's the sum of all you bring, in Gretzky's case his talents could compensate the lack of 'completeness' of his game, you know the goal is to have at least one more goal than your opponent, it helps when you're good at scoring.
Canadiens1958
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Explains why nine of Wayne Gretzky's teams over 20 NHL seasons had sub 500 or losing records.
Because they were bad teams, and/or other teams were better. As great a player can be, there are other players, coaches in the team, they won't always win. Orr never beat the Canadians in the playoffs even if he was arguably the best player.
Asheville
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Might any of that have to do with playing in front of legendary netminders like Kelly Hrudey, Jamie Storr, Byron Dafoe, Mike Richter, Jon Casey and Glenn Healy?
TheDevilMadeMe
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McGuillicuddy
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Is this your counterpoint to the thesis that Gretzky was hard to hit? All you've demonstrated here is that a blind squirrel will occasionally find a nut. Are you being obtuse deliberately?
Canadiens1958
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Just recognizing that pro hockey is about repetition, recognition and reaction. On the hit Gretzky was cutting into the middle from the left wing as he was prone to do in his early days. Recognized by a marginal player who reacted properly.
Issue is that you have to distinguish between the obvious and the subtle opportunities. In the O6 era teams faced each other 14 times during the regular season, shifts were longer. Players knew each others moves, how they reacted to checking teammates and distractions, the twitches, the body positions that signaled fatigue, vulnerability, prefered lanes, arc and paths to the net or into the corners, the opportunity for a hit. Defencemen would lure players, create fake openings, feign body position etc to entrap. Gretzky's time the educated hit had left the game. Hitting was random, not studied like previously in the O6 era.
Brad Park, believe it was in his book, describes how Tim Horton taught him how to lead a player,into a point of no return to set-up a hit. This is what was being referenced.
Too bad you cannot appreciate the subtleties of hockey.
Watch some of the complete O6 games to see the defencemen work the forwards and the forwards reciprocate. Unless you are a blind squirrel it is obvious.
Asheville
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Your team is in the playoffs. Who would you rather have:
Henri Richard
or
Wayne Gretzky
?
Doctor No
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Oh Moses, smell the roses.
With some of the claims you've tried to pass off as gospel in this thread, I don't understand the point of this insult. It's sort of in the "I know you are, but what am I?" vein.
Other people around here have demonstrated the ability to appreciate the subtleties of hockey, and their sole means of identification is not based upon how closely they align to your world view.
JackSlater
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Yes? Consider head to head. Gretzky and Shepelev only met in one championship game - Canada Cup 1981. Shepelev scored a hat trick, including the game winning goal, leading his team in a crushing 8-1 defeat over Gretzky's team Canada. In essence Shepelev shut Gretzky, scoreless in the final, down and owned him. Consider the 1982 World Championship, where Shepelev scored 8 points in a golden effort as his team won nine games. Gretzky scored 14 points, but over only 5 wins. Shepelev's wins/points is much higher, so his points had more impact on winning. Consider also Olympic tournaments. Each of Shepelev and Gretzky participated in one tournament. Shepelev scored six points in a gold medal winning effort. Gretzky, despite having ample experience, scored only four points in a fourth place effort. Mr. Beddoes' keen observations are born out by the facts. The data is there.
K Fleur
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Canadiens1958 had Henri Richard ranked #1 on their list for the HOH top 40 playoff performers. Gretzky was outside their top 10 if I remember correctly.
Canadiens1958
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Henri Richard since I would have one of the best shutdown center in playoff history as well as an elite offensive force.
Henri Richard could cover Gretzky just like he covered Bobby Hull, Orr, Bobby Clarke - three distinct skill sets. Extremely doubtful that Gretzky could cover Richard given his record against quality centers, Trottier in 1983, Yzerman in 1996.
Asheville
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He was eligible for the Conn Smythe in his final 6 Cups but was awarded the trophy not even once, despite being a better playoff performer (in your opinion) than Gretzky, who was able to capture two such awards. Why is that?
Canadiens1958
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No critical center to center match-ups like there were in 1959, 1960 when he dominated both rounds defensively . Richard's line also lead the Canadiens in playoff scoring for four consecutive playoff years 1958 to 1961 before the Smythe.
Final 6 cups, yes at an age when Gretzky had stopped winning cups and Smythes. Yet Richard in this time frame scored two SC winning goals, one in OT on the road , the other in game 7 on the road breaking a 2-2 tie in a 3-2 victory after scroring the tieing goal.
MadLuke
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Not a bad way to look at it to evaluate how one would have played in the 06 era to look at is performance against the best team / players.
But we would need to look at Gretzky overall records against quality centers to have an idea.
He faced Hawerchuk many time, Trottier in 84, Yzerman in 87, Messier in 89 , an impressive Gilmour in 1993, did really well in high level international play and I imagine an healthy sample size of regular season game against the best other center of the league.
Canadiens1958
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Blind squirrel comment implied luck or chance. It is not.
Potvin comment about hitting Gretzky was used. Both Potvin and Gretzky were LHS. Lafleur was also very hard to hit but he was a RHS. Potvin got him in open ice. Just like a goalie recognizes the subtilties of playing a LHS and RHS on the forehand so does a defenceman when considering a bodycheck on an incoming skater. Depending how the handedness matches opportunities get created or taken away.
McGuillicuddy
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Now I understand. So Bill McCreary was better at hitting LHS opponents like Gretzky than Denis Potvin was. That makes sense, and is totally consistent with history.
dr robbie
Let's Go Pens!
He obviously did. He said that Keon played Gretzky hard the whole time which is why Gretzky registered less points, due to their complete games. He would either have to have watched and remembered those exact games and matchups or he is just pulling crap out of nowhere.
Canadiens1958
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Canadiens1958
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Now I understand. So Bill McCreary was better at hitting LHS opponents like Gretzky than Denis Potvin was. That makes sense, and is totally consistent with history.
Sadly you still do not understand. McCreary had the handedness opportunity that Potvin could never have.
Similar to height opportunities. A 5'8" Leo Boivin could get low and underneath to deliver a proper hip check while a 6' 9" Zdeno Chara would newer be able to get low enough to deliver such a check in the NHL past and present.
