Ice Dogs sanctioned for recruitment violations

[Otto]

FACT, London Knights had Dave Gagner as a coach and he stopped being a coach the year after Sam went to the NHL and stuck for the season. He never coached since.

Somehow Gagner slide way down the draft chart.

Should we look closer into that?

These are the things that add up over time where people, like me, start to suggest there is impropriety. I am on the record MANY TIMES saying, "If you ain't cheating you ain't trying." So, I have zero issues with teams breaking the rules. Go for it if you think you can get away with it. So, I am not judging teams in any way. I just think you are going way overboard with your sanctimonious BS.

It's not like Gagner didn't have experience coaching prior though... and it's not like he wasn't involved in hockey afterwards. Just going by his post playing days resume he moved around between opportunities frequently

DAVE GAGNER - Orr Hockey Group

 

[the dog]

From what I understand he does have a scouting background. He had played pro hockey for years. I can't say for certain, but I thought I read somewhere that he had moved on to another job. He is asst. coach Greenville swamp rabbits ECHL

Kahlil Thomas Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

[Otto]

Unfortunately, this forum prohibits us from discussing current recruitment violations so I will just leave it at that.

I'm still laughing at this ... then send a PM.. or better yet go to the media

 

[Fischhaber]

Why did it take six years for Niagara to be investigated? Same for Windsor?

Point is I am "reasonably certain" most, if not all teams breach the rules for player acquisition in some manner.

With respect to London, they get crapped on by other fan bases because of all the NCAA SLIDE players from the past. Heck, the new defection rule was put in place SPECIFICALLY to stop that from happening. Players and parents working teams to get the preferential destinations etc.

As I said, I know for a FACT the Ottawa 67's back in around 1994 did it. They had a deal worked out with a player (not saying who it was and there was no financial compensation) where the player declared NCAA to teams and then Ottawa drafted him late, and then a 2nd and 3rd player late all in consecutive picks. Those players played an integral part of the 1997 team. I don't know for certain but I am pretty sure the same thing happened with Jon Zion and Andrew Abou-Assaly. Jon Zion (OA year) walked away from his NHL contract mid-season to return to the 67's. You can't tell me Jeff Hunt et all didn't toss money at Zion to compensate him for nullifying the contract with the Leafs, or at least compensate him in another way.

Again, do we know for certain? I don't. But, I know enough to reasonably assert that many teams do it to varying degrees. All of which would or should be penalized.

To come on here and be sanctimonious about Niagara isn't reasonable IMO. I realize it is not you I am referring to but the tone is a little much considering the potential for this to, at some point, get blown right back in his face.

There are plenty of instances like the one you are describing. I've seen direct payments. I've seen paid flights for parents and relatives. I've seen vehicles, clothes, and apartments.

These NCAA players slide for cash and cash alone in most instances. If player development were a consideration then you would see a lot more players go to the teams with the best track record of development, but Owen Sound, Oshawa, SSM, Erie. They don't generally get the big money players. Antonio Stranges actually came to the Soo before the draft and they would surely have him if the price were right, but obviously it was too much. That's just business as usual in the OHL.

 

[PhlyerPhanatic31]

There is plenty of proof and you have seen it if you follow your favourite team. This kind of stuff is no secret if you follow the OHL. Jack Campbell talked openly to myself and other media members about Windsor's recruitment tactics well before the sanctions and current players on London and other teams have done the same.

Pretending to be stupid and ignorant does nothing to further your argument.

Unfortunately, this forum prohibits us from discussing current recruitment violations so I will just leave it at that.

So are you saying you're a media member?..., I'm certain your employer would get a hoot if they found out about your hints and conjecture on this forum

 

[Fischhaber]

So are you saying you're a media member?..., I'm certain your employer would get a hoot if they found out about your hints and conjecture on this forum

Not currently, but as I said, none of this stuff is a secret to even the slightest extent. The OHL's worst kept secret is that players are sometimes paid under the table.

 

[PhlyerPhanatic31]

Not currently, but as I said, none of this stuff is a secret to even the slightest extent. The OHL's worst kept secret is that players are sometimes paid under the table.

Nobody is saying player's don't reap under the table rewards. The topic really isn't open to debate in my opinion. The stupid teams get caught when they venture too far. Hence the sanctions being so high if you're caught. I don't think any Knights fan truly believes they haven't had some questionable dealings..but until they actually slip up and do something that proves their guilt and goes on record as such, everything stated against them is conjecture.

 

[EvenSteven]

Your team blatantly and openly breaks recruitment rules and receives no punishment. Other teams have done the same as well, but not nearly to the same extent.

The league deals with complaints from players because they must do so. They are happy to let teams pay their players if it means more talent in the OHL. If you knew what Antonio Stranges is getting I think you would be shocked at the dollars that are spent in the OHL. The bidding war for him got pretty heated between at least 3 teams before the draft.

Niagara was dumb enough to get caught, but let's not pretend that most teams in the league don't cheat the system. I know of some minor examples on my own team even.

I can see part of what Fischaber is saying as being true. Perhaps there were more than one team involved in trying to coax Stranges to report to their team should they draft him. And I doubt that that would be illegal either. Likely happens all the time. It would be better off happening that way anyway. That means that one of the teams that wanted him, that he would rather not play for anyway, doesn't bother wasting a pick on him.

It's as soon as money changes hands that everything becomes against the rules.

 

[OMG67]

It's not like Gagner didn't have experience coaching prior though... and it's not like he wasn't involved in hockey afterwards. Just going by his post playing days resume he moved around between opportunities frequently

DAVE GAGNER - Orr Hockey Group

Sure, we can all make statements like you just did. When you make it, it's real. When the opposing viewpoint makes a statement, it's false.

Listen, I get it. No picture, no proof. I know where some Knight's fans are coming from. It's just seems so obvious to most of us these things happen and for anyone to suggest otherwise, to me, it seems unreasonable.

I don't want to keep going in circles and neither do you and others so I will end my participation in this thread with this...

I do not have proof of any teams contravening rules over the last 15 years. But just because I don't have proof it doesn't mean I can't have the opinion that teams do it rather openly, or at least in a way that seems obvious. The Knight's get zeroed in on because of the volume of instances that seem fishy.

That is what I believe to be true. Some people believe the Earth is flat so beliefs are just that, beliefs, no facts.

 

[Otto]

So are you saying you're a media member?..., I'm certain your employer would get a hoot if they found out about your hints and conjecture on this forum

Who was that loudmouth from the Soo again.. the one that nobody listened to and has since disappeared from the airwaves? I bet that's who this is

 

[Otto]

Sure, we can all make statements like you just did. When you make it, it's real. When the opposing viewpoint makes a statement, it's false.

Listen, I get it. No picture, no proof. I know where some Knight's fans are coming from. It's just seems so obvious to most of us these things happen and for anyone to suggest otherwise, to me, it seems unreasonable.

I don't want to keep going in circles and neither do you and others so I will end my participation in this thread with this...

I do not have proof of any teams contravening rules over the last 15 years. But just because I don't have proof it doesn't mean I can't have the opinion that teams do it rather openly, or at least in a way that seems obvious. The Knight's get zeroed in on because of the volume of instances that seem fishy.

That is what I believe to be true. Some people believe the Earth is flat so beliefs are just that, beliefs, no facts.

So are you saying what I posted about Gagner is false?

 

[road warrior]

Can someone teach me how to put an ignore posts flag on a someone’s handle?

I need one for Knights Watcher after reading this discussion.

 

[Hammer9001]

So my stance pretty much, sure teams do this and get away with it, but when they are caught the book needs to be thrown at them for two reasons. First to discourage this behavior and let teams know there are real consequences for doing this and second, because as we've seen any such violation will get talked down to a lesser punishment with an appeal attempt.

 

[OMG67]

So are you saying what I posted about Gagner is false?

What I am saying is we don't know that Gagner being hired as an assistant coach wasn't a payoff for Sam reporting....

If one person can suggest Akil Thomas Dad is a scout as payoff for Akil Thomas signing, others can point to Dave and Sam Gagner.

Like I am saying for the last time, there are too many incidences LEAGUE WIDE that are fishy for all of them to be straight up and that includes incidences with the Knight's. I'm not singling out the Knight's because I think virtually every team does stuff that breaks rules so I am not passing judgement.

 

[Otto]

What I am saying is we don't know that Gagner being hired as an assistant coach wasn't a payoff for Sam reporting....

If one person can suggest Akil Thomas Dad is a scout as payoff for Akil Thomas signing, others can point to Dave and Sam Gagner.

Like I am saying for the last time, there are too many incidences LEAGUE WIDE that are fishy for all of them to be straight up and that includes incidences with the Knight's. I'm not singling out the Knight's because I think virtually every team does stuff that breaks rules so I am not passing judgement.

Thomas' Dad also has experience.... people questioning either one are just looking to nitpick. I appreciate that you say you "think" every team does it, because that implies opinion whereas when you say you are "sure" they do it implies fact... you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts

 

[Knights Watcher]

I'm still laughing at this ... then send a PM.. or better yet go to the media

What he meant to say was "Unfortunately, the law prohibits me from making unjustified, baseless and slanderous accusations, so I'm just going to keep posting these generalizations in the forums in hopes that someone will believe me...and btw... the earth is flat, vaccines cause autism and Hitler is still alive in Argentina"

 

[Knights Watcher]

Can someone teach me how to put an ignore posts flag on a someone’s handle?

I need one for Knights Watcher after reading this discussion.

Sure...just click on my Avatar, then click Ignore when my profile picture comes up.
Cheers!

 

[Knights Watcher]

OMG67 is missing the Irony of this entire situation.
Airplane

Yes....someone should really explain the whole situation to him. LOL

 

[Knights Watcher]

There are plenty of instances like the one you are describing. I've seen direct payments. I've seen paid flights for parents and relatives. I've seen vehicles, clothes, and apartments.

These NCAA players slide for cash and cash alone in most instances. If player development were a consideration then you would see a lot more players go to the teams with the best track record of development, but Owen Sound, Oshawa, SSM, Erie. They don't generally get the big money players. Antonio Stranges actually came to the Soo before the draft and they would surely have him if the price were right, but obviously it was too much. That's just business as usual in the OHL.

So you were actually there for all those instances where flights were paid, vehicles and clothes were bought and apartments were rented. You were right there as a firsthand witness? WOW! Talk about being in the right place at the right time! Can you pick my lottery numbers for me?
I CALL BS!

 

[Knights Watcher]

Sure, we can all make statements like you just did. When you make it, it's real. When the opposing viewpoint makes a statement, it's false.

Listen, I get it. No picture, no proof. I know where some Knight's fans are coming from. It's just seems so obvious to most of us these things happen and for anyone to suggest otherwise, to me, it seems unreasonable.

I don't want to keep going in circles and neither do you and others so I will end my participation in this thread with this...

I do not have proof of any teams contravening rules over the last 15 years. But just because I don't have proof it doesn't mean I can't have the opinion that teams do it rather openly, or at least in a way that seems obvious. The Knight's get zeroed in on because of the volume of instances that seem fishy.

That is what I believe to be true. Some people believe the Earth is flat so beliefs are just that, beliefs, no facts.

Well said. No picture, no proof. Does it happen? Maybe, maybe not. Do I think the Knights are as pure as the driven snow. Absolutely not....but whatever they are doing is working and probably just within the boundaries of the rules. There's a difference between cheating and finding and exploiting the gray areas within the rules and finding using the loopholes to your advantage. I'm sure most teams do that, it's just the dumb ones that cross the line and get caught....Like Niagara!
Nice debating with you, though.
Cheers

 

[fishfan51]

Sure...just click on my Avatar, then click Ignore when my profile picture comes up.
Cheers![/QUOTE

 

[GangGreen]

There are plenty of instances like the one you are describing. I've seen direct payments. I've seen paid flights for parents and relatives. I've seen vehicles, clothes, and apartments.

These NCAA players slide for cash and cash alone in most instances. If player development were a consideration then you would see a lot more players go to the teams with the best track record of development, but Owen Sound, Oshawa, SSM, Erie. They don't generally get the big money players. Antonio Stranges actually came to the Soo before the draft and they would surely have him if the price were right, but obviously it was too much. That's just business as usual in the OHL.

So the Soo buys players, just not the big money ones? Hmmm, that answers the question why they get so many Americans to report. Just not Stranges I guess.

 

[Fischhaber]

So the Soo buys players, just not the big money ones? Hmmm, that answers the question why they get so many Americans to report. Just not Stranges I guess.

Oh yeah, all 2 of them. Roth was surely in big demand seeing that he went undrafted from the hockey hotbed of Missouri.

 

[Otto]

Oh yeah, all 2 of them. Roth was surely in big demand seeing that he went undrafted from the hockey hotbed of Missouri.

So Bill, you were in the media... if this stuff under the table stuff was going on why didn't you name names at the time?

 

[Drop the Puck]

Yes....someone should really explain the whole situation to him. LOL

Naaaaaaaaaa, that would take years. Besides, only the LK fans know. Oh the horror. Lol