I think the Wings have turned the corner

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

Yzerman has intentionally tanked for three straight years.

To think he even had a choice in the matter is laughable. The prospect pipeline was barren and we had overpaid boat anchors in the lineup signed for too many years when he arrived.
There was no other option but to "tank". Stop pretending another option was available.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Am I missing something here?

Dobber is the source of the article, hence the quotes, they're usually really good, so maybe reach out to them?

 

[Frk It]

I think this thread is a year too early. With the moves we made in free agency, I don't see a team that has turned the corner. It's so blatantly obvious that next season is another throw away season.

At least. I think we have turned a corner with the # of quality prospects in the pipeline. But they still need time to develop and materialize.

 

[RedWingzz]

How? Both our goalies overachieved last year. If we were tanking we would have traded them like Buffalo did with any goalie that won too much the year they were jockeying for McDavid.

Maybe 2 years ago you could say we did.

I mean, I guess I wouldn't use the word "tanked" but to me it is blatantly obvious that he is throwing away these seasons, and really does not expect/care about the results. If we weren't throwing away the season, surely we would have improved the team more than we did.

Marc Staal coming back, trading for Leddy, acquiring a 3rd line center (2nd on our team) and signing depth guys like Oesterle doesn't necessarily depict a picture of a GM who is trying to make the playoffs. It's the exact opposite, it's a GM who is remaining patient and trusting his rebuild plan. I dunno, I just wish we would have gone for it a bit more here. It's gonna be another long season next year, going on year 6 without playoff hockey, I'm ready to actually make a push...

Yzerman wasn't kidding when he said the rebuild was going to take a while...

 

[Realgud]

Dobber is the source of the article, hence the quotes, they're usually really good, so maybe reach out to them?

Just a friendly mistake on their part, I assume. I thought I might have misread something. That's such a confident but clearly wrong statement on their part lol, just kinda funny.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Just a friendly mistake on their part, I assume. I thought I might have misread something. That's such a confident but clearly wrong statement on their part lol, just kinda funny.

I read so much that I'm almost immune to it atp. Not just common grammar/spelling/use of wrong word or phrase etc., but as you pointed out the point itself.

 

[PelagicJoe]

I think we are definitely heading in the right direction. We aren't signing and/or giving giant horrible contract extensions to old & washed up garbage players anymore like Holland was known to do. That's a huge start.

I trust Yzerman in the draft far more than Kenny these days.

Stevie also knows how to find overlooked gems at bargain prices. I was talking with a friend of mine that is a Blues fan (I'm in STL.) He pointed this out to me. Stevie finds guys that are super hungry 2nd liners that want more ice time and overlooked 3rd liners. Vrana and Fabbri for example. Finding a 1C would help immensely.

That said, it will still be two or three seasons before the Wings make some noise and are genuinely "back."

 

[MBH]

How? Both our goalies overachieved last year. If we were tanking we would have traded them like Buffalo did with any goalie that won too much the year they were jockeying for McDavid.

Maybe 2 years ago you could say we did.

Yzerman knew this team was bad and didn't try to improve it beyond bad.

It was the smart thing to do.
But it was a tank.

He signed low-budget fillers like Ryan, Namestnikov, Stecher, Filppula, Merril, Staal and Gagner, etc etc etc, rather than make it known he wanted to get involved and competitive for impact players.

Which is exactly what I would have done.

He's basically done the same thing this year.
He got Ned. No way of knowing if he'll be better or worse than Bernier - but at the least, it's a hold the fort move that should solidify one of the spots until Cossa's ready.

Suter is a filler move with some upside - but still a filler move. In terms of contract value, it's a Filppula level signing.
Oesterle.
Leddy is a mild improvement @ LD.
Glendening is a mild loss.
We don't know what Stephens is - but it's hard to imagine he's going to be Glendening

Yzerman wants to give the youngsters enough talent around them so they don't get stuck in a rut like the disaster two years ago.
But he's squarely leaving it tothis team's youth to drive this team from the basement.

He's intentionally not trading/signing for guys who can significantly improve this team.

 

[MBH]

To think he even had a choice in the matter is laughable. The prospect pipeline was barren and we had overpaid boat anchors in the lineup signed for too many years when he arrived.
There was no other option but to "tank". Stop pretending another option was available.

Are you forgetful or just misinformed? There are always options.

The New York Rangers were in the basement. Did that stop them from going after Panarin?

The LA Kings went out and signed Danault and traded for Arvidsson.
Hardly game franchise-altering moves...but a clear sign to their players and their fans that they intend to compete for a playoff spot next season.

Do Yzerman's moves give you any sense the Wings intend to compete for a playoff spot next year?
Of course not.

The only way this team makes the playoffs is if Seider and Co take us there.
We're still waiting on Seider, Rasmussen, Veleno, Zadina, Raymond, Berggren, McIsaac and others to show us what they are.
And that's fine.
That's one option.

LA decided they weren't going to wait for Byfield, Turcotte et al to light the way.
They're going for it now, with Doughty/Kopitar still on the team. Personally, I think it's premature, given the state of their defense.

But teams have that option.
Yzerman had that option.

Wisely, he chose to continue floating in the NHL's tank.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

We have a few prospects. That's it. We don't have a single proven elite NHL player. Seider is the first potentially high end Yzerman addition and he's 250 NHL games away from being a true #1 D if that's even what he is. .Bert is on his way out. We're not even done sitting at rock bottom. This team is 8-10 years away from anything significant and that's if we get some luck and soon.

 

[The Zermanator]

I think this thread is a year too early. With the moves we made in free agency, I don't see a team that has turned the corner. It's so blatantly obvious that next season is another throw away season.

At least. I think we have turned a corner with the # of quality prospects in the pipeline. But they still need time to develop and materialize.

I was pretty candid that this season would be another rough one standings-wise, with possibly another to follow. I meant turning a corner more in the sense of the team that is on the ice and what it represents.

Of course these prospects are going to need to develop. But gone are the days of getting excited about Marchenko-level prospects, for example. The ones we all argued about getting their shots when they were closing in on 25 in a lot of cases. You can only blame Holland's over-ripening philosophy so much. Most of the time, they just weren't that good. That's why they were still trying to fight their way onto an uncompetitive roster at such old ages for rookies.

Now though? We have Zadina, Rasmussen, and Veleno already with their feet wet to varying degrees, getting up to speed. On top of fresh faces in Vrana, Suter, and to a lesser degree Fabbri. This season, Seider is making his NHL debut at 20 years old. And possibly Raymond and Berggren joining him. We'll be expecting Edvinsson to be worked in over the next couple seasons, along with Johansson, with Cossa hopefully not far behind. Got another promising young goalie starting this season in Nedeljkovic.

Watching this team come together, even if it doesn't translate to being competitive right away, is a far cry from just a few years ago. Back when this team's depth was the corpses of Frans Nielsen and Justin Abdelkader. It's a night and day difference. We're not watching the last pitiful gasps of a once great beast anymore, we're watching a phoenix coming from the ashes. There's a foundation to build on now, and it's uphill from here. That's the corner being turned. The organization is exciting again.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

I was pretty candid that this season would be another rough one standings-wise, with possibly another to follow. I meant turning a corner more in the sense of the team that is on the ice and what it represents.

Of course these prospects are going to need to develop. But gone are the days of getting excited about Marchenko-level prospects, for example. The ones we all argued about getting their shots when they were closing in on 25 in a lot of cases. You can only blame Holland's over-ripening philosophy so much. Most of the time, they just weren't that good. That's why they were still trying to fight their way onto an uncompetitive roster at such old ages for rookies.

Now though? We have Zadina, Rasmussen, and Veleno already with their feet wet to varying degrees, getting up to speed. On top of fresh faces in Vrana, Suter, and to a lesser degree Fabbri. This season, Seider is making his NHL debut at 20 years old. And possibly Raymond and Berggren joining him. We'll be expecting Edvinsson to be worked in over the next couple seasons, along with Johansson, with Cossa hopefully not far behind. Got another promising young goalie starting this season in Nedeljkovic.

Watching this team come together, even if it doesn't translate to being competitive right away, is a far cry from just a few years ago. Back when this team's depth was the corpses of Frans Nielsen and Justin Abdelkader. It's a night and day difference. We're not watching the last pitiful gasps of a once great beast anymore, we're watching a phoenix coming from the ashes. There's a foundation to build on now, and it's uphill from here. That's the corner being turned. The organization is exciting again.

Yes, a phoenix rising from the ashes

 

[Snuggs]

Idk, I don't they've turned anything yet. I thought this was the year a move or two would be made to add solid core peices but thats hasn't happened.

Kinda of more of the same. They'll be a terrible team again next year, similar to what this years team looked like. Suter was a good signings, I liked it but he's over his head holding down the 2nd line here. Red Wings seem really weak up the middle imo at C, lines, 1-4.

I'm not going to say it's Yzerman fault though when ownership hasn't showed any willingness to spend money long-term on players since owning the team. Basically been a cash cow for them while also getting a free arena.

Can't reason the Leddy trade too well, honestly. I've read a lot of posts, etc, just can't get passed if we wanted to spend money, why didn't we just go do it instead of coughing up a 2nd rdp plus the money for a 1 year guy? The pick might of never amounted to anything so it's not worth getting really upset, but, just doesn't seem like the best move imo. Just looks like "A move" from the outside in.

I'm actually disappointed with Yzerman this offseason. Thought he had an opportunity to excite normal/casual fans and, well, he just hasn't.

The more, and more, they keep signing bad players to support there picks, imo, has the opposite effect and does drag down our prospects play. (IMO) I can't see one player we've signed since Yzerman has been here that has helped the team development and made this roster overall better. He's just signed fillers. They are what they are.

Turned a corner.... to where? Towards next years top 5 draft pick again? Most likely for at least the next two season unless some guys come up and are top players in the NHL (Seider/Raymond/Cossa/etc.etc/etc)

* Also this isn't a slam on Yzerman overall. I like his trades, I'd say he's done about a B overall grade in the rebuild so far. Pretty much not screwing anything up and has the ship at least pointed in the right direction. In the next few years when his picks age up and come up to play and his big money signings get under a microscope a little. That'll give a more clear view on how he's actually doing as GM. People around here are afraid to sign guys cause of historically bad contracts Red Wings have given, but pay the right guys and we'll be fine. That's the key to the whole thing. I don't mind paying players but, gotta pay the best ones.

 

[burbankmarc]

Idk, I don't they've turned anything yet. I thought this was the year a move or two would be made to add solid core peices but thats hasn't happened.

Kinda of more of the same. They'll be a terrible team again next year, similar to what this years team looked like. Suter was a good signings, I liked it but he's over his head holding down the 2nd line here. Red Wings seem really weak up the middle imo at C, lines, 1-4.

I'm not going to say it's Yzerman fault though when ownership hasn't showed any willingness to spend money long-term on players since owning the team. Basically been a cash cow for them while also getting a free arena.

Can't reason the Leddy trade too well, honestly. I've read a lot of posts, etc, just can't get passed if we wanted to spend money, why didn't we just go do it instead of coughing up a 2nd rdp plus the money for a 1 year guy? The pick might of never amounted to anything so it's not worth getting really upset, but, just doesn't seem like the best move imo. Just looks like "A move" from the outside in.

I'm actually disappointed with Yzerman this offseason. Thought he had an opportunity to excite normal/casual fans and, well, he just hasn't.

The more, and more, they keep signing bad players to support there picks, imo, has the opposite effect and does drag down our prospects play. (IMO) I can't see one player we've signed since Yzerman has been here that has helped the team development and made this roster overall better. He's just signed fillers. They are what they are.

Turned a corner.... to where? Towards next years top 5 draft pick again? Most likely for at least the next two season unless some guys come up and are top players in the NHL (Seider/Raymond/Cossa/etc.etc/etc)

* Also this isn't a slam on Yzerman overall. I like his trades, I'd say he's done about a B overall grade in the rebuild so far. Pretty much not screwing anything up and has the ship at least pointed in the right direction. In the next few years when his picks age up and come up to play and his big money signings get under a microscope a little. That'll give a more clear view on how he's actually doing as GM. People around here are afraid to sign guys cause of historically bad contracts Red Wings have given, but pay the right guys and we'll be fine. That's the key to the whole thing. I don't mind paying players but, gotta pay the best ones.

I'm pretty sure Yzerman is deliberately handing out 1-2 year contracts. I doubt ownership is forcing his hand. It's the smart thing to do since management still doesn't know what they have with the young players. It's possible that none of them are core players on a winning team, so why anchor yourself to a large contract for a player that isn't worth keeping?

 

[DetroitRed]

Adding Cossa and Edvinsson to Seider and Raymond, I think puts us near the top. I think we can say that now.

Though it's probably still unanimous that LA has the best prospect pool, to be able to say our prospect pool is near the top now, versus being able to say we may have the top defensive prospect, is turning a corner. Now we can say both of those things.

The one thing I don't see yet is a league talent in offense at forward. But as is I'm pretty excited to see them with Suter, Vrana and Bertuzzi joining Larkin, Fabbri, Zadina. I count six guys there who can net 20+ goals a season.

Not to mention Leddy joining Hronek and now in front of Nedeljkovic.

It's a team that I now feel will only head up in the standings for the foreseeable future...even if they're still a lottery team this coming season.

 

[heyfolks]

We add Wright, Lambert, or Savoie with our top pick next year and I’m right there with ya.

Exactly where I am at with this team. ONE MORE YEAR in the lottery. With good luck (I know, I know) they get a young impact player, who can step in at day 1. From there, it's fighting to get in to the post season and building to challenge for the Cup.

 

[Henkka]

Point-projections (last 2 season avg, with slight adjustment)

Larkin (0.78 ppg) = 82 games, 24+30 = 64 points
(Tatar (0.77 ppg) = 82 games, 23+40 = 63 points)
Vrana (0.74 ppg) = 82 games, 30+30 = 60 points
Bertuzzi (0.69 ppg) = 82 games, 27+30 = 57 points
Fabbri (0.60 ppg) = 82 games, 24+25 = 49 points
Berggren (0.51 ppg) = 82 games, 14+28 = 42 points (we get lucky and Berggren does what Höglander did with Canucks, same point-conversion rate)
Suter (0.50 ppg) = 82 games, 21+20 = 41 points
Zadina (0.49 ppg) = 82 games, 17+23 = 40 points
Gagner (0.33 ppg) = 82 games, 13+14 = 27 points
Namestnikov (0.32 ppg) = 82 games, 13+13 = 26 points
Rasmussen (0.30 ppg) = 82 games, 10+14 = 24 points
Erne (0.25 ppg) = 82 games, 11+10 = 21 points
Stephens (0.17 ppg) = 82 games, 7+7 = 14 points

That's how it could go if no one will get injured.

But in real life many will get injured and after that it's a mess and numbers will dip.

 

[CalumetHockeyTown]

It has been very painful watching this team over the past several years. I can see a corner being turned but there is long way to go. I remember in the past when a regular would go down, some would call the young guy being called up "a silver lining" to the injury. Well I think we can all agree the silver linings weren't ready.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Are you forgetful or just misinformed? There are always options.

The New York Rangers were in the basement. Did that stop them from going after Panarin?

The LA Kings went out and signed Danault and traded for Arvidsson.
Hardly game franchise-altering moves...but a clear sign to their players and their fans that they intend to compete for a playoff spot next season.

Do Yzerman's moves give you any sense the Wings intend to compete for a playoff spot next year?
Of course not.

The only way this team makes the playoffs is if Seider and Co take us there.
We're still waiting on Seider, Rasmussen, Veleno, Zadina, Raymond, Berggren, McIsaac and others to show us what they are.
And that's fine.
That's one option.

LA decided they weren't going to wait for Byfield, Turcotte et al to light the way.
They're going for it now, with Doughty/Kopitar still on the team. Personally, I think it's premature, given the state of their defense.

But teams have that option.
Yzerman had that option.

Wisely, he chose to continue floating in the NHL's tank.

It's maybe because any improvements that Yzerman would have made wouldn't have helped too much in the long term. I was a proponent of going after at least 2/3 of Tampa's third line in free agency but that helps us until 2023 and then afterwards where are we at? Stuck with 2 or 3 more years of guys that we're seeing diminishing returns from. (Though I still would have been a fan of Barclay Goodrow on the team)

Panarin to New York has seen that team on the outside of the playoffs looking in 2 seasons in a row with 2 lucky lotto wins. They still have a long way to go despite star power on that roster. It's starting to feel like the 2001 Rangers with a roster of really high paid players that can't get shit done.

LA is a case of them having a ton of young center prospects and really only having Kopitar and Doughty as players of consequence on that team. Arvidsson and Danault make sense from the standpoint of insulating the kids with savvy veterans while allowing them to play competitively. Plus with Seattle Arizona as tanking teams out west LA might be able to squeak into the playoffs as an 8th seed. From a development standpoint that's a huge win for their group of kids.

Looking at both the Eastern conference and the West, as well as divisional strengths. The Wings are holding the short straw. Strongest division in the strongest conference. Boston or Toronto would have to have complete breakdowns for Detroit to be a top 4 team in the division. If we spent all our money to hit the cap ceiling we would MAYBE be an 8th seed team and then we're back to where we were in 2016. Instead we're spending just enough to be over the floor and make a tiny improvement in the standings. 2022 or 2023 will be the years that we should look at making an offseason splash for that push.

 

[MBH]

It's maybe because any improvements that Yzerman would have made wouldn't have helped too much in the long term. I was a proponent of going after at least 2/3 of Tampa's third line in free agency but that helps us until 2023 and then afterwards where are we at? Stuck with 2 or 3 more years of guys that we're seeing diminishing returns from. (Though I still would have been a fan of Barclay Goodrow on the team)

Panarin to New York has seen that team on the outside of the playoffs looking in 2 seasons in a row with 2 lucky lotto wins. They still have a long way to go despite star power on that roster. It's starting to feel like the 2001 Rangers with a roster of really high paid players that can't get shit done.

LA is a case of them having a ton of young center prospects and really only having Kopitar and Doughty as players of consequence on that team. Arvidsson and Danault make sense from the standpoint of insulating the kids with savvy veterans while allowing them to play competitively. Plus with Seattle Arizona as tanking teams out west LA might be able to squeak into the playoffs as an 8th seed. From a development standpoint that's a huge win for their group of kids.

Looking at both the Eastern conference and the West, as well as divisional strengths. The Wings are holding the short straw. Strongest division in the strongest conference. Boston or Toronto would have to have complete breakdowns for Detroit to be a top 4 team in the division. If we spent all our money to hit the cap ceiling we would MAYBE be an 8th seed team and then we're back to where we were in 2016. Instead we're spending just enough to be over the floor and make a tiny improvement in the standings. 2022 or 2023 will be the years that we should look at making an offseason splash for that push.

The point is, Yzerman COULD CHOOSE to start spending money on big name targets.
But he doesn't.
Because he's chosen a different path.

I'm not sure when that year is. This year will tell us a lot.
But there's a lot of mystery in this rebuild. We still haven't seen Seider in the NHL.
We still don't know what we have in Zadina or Rasmussen, let alone Veleno, Berggren or Raymond.
In some ways, it's really starting to feel like everything Pre-Yzerman might not have a future here. And if that's the case, it might take longer than we thought.

 

[MBH]

Adding Cossa and Edvinsson to Seider and Raymond, I think puts us near the top. I think we can say that now.

Though it's probably still unanimous that LA has the best prospect pool, to be able to say our prospect pool is near the top now, versus being able to say we may have the top defensive prospect, is turning a corner. Now we can say both of those things.

The one thing I don't see yet is a league talent in offense at forward. But as is I'm pretty excited to see them with Suter, Vrana and Bertuzzi joining Larkin, Fabbri, Zadina. I count six guys there who can net 20+ goals a season.

Not to mention Leddy joining Hronek and now in front of Nedeljkovic.

It's a team that I now feel will only head up in the standings for the foreseeable future...even if they're still a lottery team this coming season.

Wonder if we could trade Wallinder for Kupari or Wallinder + for Vilardi.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

The point is, Yzerman COULD CHOOSE to start spending money on big name targets.
But he doesn't.
Because he's chosen a different path.

I'm not sure when that year is. This year will tell us a lot.
But there's a lot of mystery in this rebuild. We still haven't seen Seider in the NHL.
We still don't know what we have in Zadina or Rasmussen, let alone Veleno, Berggren or Raymond.
In some ways, it's really starting to feel like everything Pre-Yzerman might not have a future here. And if that's the case, it might take longer than we thought.

Because most things pre-Yzerman probably don't have a future here. He's showing a lot of patience for Rasmussen, Zadina, Lindstrom, Veleno, Berggren and McIsaac but I think that's the cut off point. Even then I wouldn't be surprised if Yzerman traded any one of them for the right price. I also don't expect that Hronek, Bertuzzi or even Larkin are long term core solutions for Yzerman's Detroit. I never really did, and could see each of them moved on from within 3 years time. The 2022 and 2023 drafts are maybe (hopefully) our last real chance at top 10 or top 15 picks for a while. We really need to knock them out of the park to get out of the basement long term.

I don't preach blind faith to the Yzerplan but I do preach patience and progress. I think we'll slowly get there. This rebuild might look more like the Islanders or Nashville Predators build than the Tampa Bay Lightning's build, but hey, that's better than the Buffalo or Arizona rebuild we were going to have under the old regime.

 

[DetroitRed]

Wonder if we could trade Wallinder for Kupari or Wallinder + for Vilardi.

I think it's too early to be serious about it, honestly, especially concerning Vilardi.

Vilardi is basically a proven NHLer. Although he has less than 82 NHL games under his belt, the sample available, 64 NHL games, decent size in comparison at least, shows he was already on pace for about 17 goals over 82 games. Also, he seems to be progressing as hoped. Compare that to, for example, Zadina, who might have averaged 14 goals over his first 82 NHL games (now at 86), but if you look at him last season, suddenly he was just on pace for about 10 goals. If we're stoked about Zadina, think about much LA must love Vilardi. And where will Vilardi be in his development a couple years from now when Wallinder is just starting to break into the NHL? To me, this idea, even assuming all goes right for us, is years down the line.

I also think Kupari is further along in his development than Wallinder and as with Vilardi, it could be just an age thing and we'll have to wait and see. But Kupari - again - has competed well and progressed at the AHL level and he's getting ready to make that jump to the NHL...

Meanwhile, Wallinder - two or three years younger than those two guys - hasn't played in the SHL yet. Moreover, his second stint in MODO beyond juniors wasn't as convincing as Kupari's stints playing with adults in AHL or Liiga. Kupari has also been up to the NHL for just long enough for LA to gauge where he's at. So, are we talking about a possibility that is at least three years down the road even when we are talking about Kupari?

 

[19 for president]

Are you forgetful or just misinformed? There are always options.

The New York Rangers were in the basement. Did that stop them from going after Panarin?

The LA Kings went out and signed Danault and traded for Arvidsson.
Hardly game franchise-altering moves...but a clear sign to their players and their fans that they intend to compete for a playoff spot next season.

Do Yzerman's moves give you any sense the Wings intend to compete for a playoff spot next year?
Of course not.

The only way this team makes the playoffs is if Seider and Co take us there.
We're still waiting on Seider, Rasmussen, Veleno, Zadina, Raymond, Berggren, McIsaac and others to show us what they are.
And that's fine.
That's one option.

LA decided they weren't going to wait for Byfield, Turcotte et al to light the way.
They're going for it now, with Doughty/Kopitar still on the team. Personally, I think it's premature, given the state of their defense.

But teams have that option.
Yzerman had that option.

Wisely, he chose to continue floating in the NHL's tank.

I don't think its fair to compare the Wings to LA with a still very productive Kopitar and Doughty on the team. When Z and Kronner fell apart we really had no workable vets left.

As for NYR and Panarin, you need the players to want to sign here. NY has a certain draw even when a team is bad that Detroit lacks. Its not going to draw in a lot of youngish guys looking to party and live it up. Early 30s guys with kids and wives is a whole other scenario, but we don't really want or need those guys right now.

I do agree that we are tanking, just not full tanking. Yzerman is making sure the team is driven by the skills of our young players for better or worse while bringing in some vets to prevent a young team from spiraling. We aren't going to be artificially propped up by one or two players in their late prime years.

Yzerman knows that a bad cap situation can mess up your cup window. You have to commit to the right guys. I'd hate to have to potentially trade a Seider in a few years because we signed a Tyler Johnson esque player. In a flat cap world people will eventually not have money to spend.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Yes, but no. They have everything they need... except for the most important piece.

Stopping the rebuild without adding a bona fide center is like walking out the door with your keys still on the counter. You're not going anywhere.