Pre-Game Talk: Hurrican... forget it, LET'S TALK LINES!!!

[Waffle Fries]

Remember yesterday? It was a time full of hope..

https://twitter.com/Dejan_Kovacevic/status/327818860554235905

That said, this is clearly set up so Iginla will join 87 and Malkin's old lj e reunited. No small thing there. #TribHKY

 

[KIRK]

I hate Bylsma so much. I really do. The only thing -- and I literally mean the ONLY thing -- that will redeem him in my mind is if this team wins the Cup this year. Anything less and I will forever hate him for the stupid lines he insists on using.

I will confess that I hate him all the more for suckering me. Sid goes out. Iggy is on the LW. Then, Geno goes out. I see Morrow killing it with Dupuis or Bennett. I see Kunitz and Iggy together. I'm thinking those two with Sid and Bennett with Malkin and Neal, with Morrow-Jokinen-Dupuis and Cooke-Sutter-Adams. Then, Geno comes back and starts Tuesday with Dupuis on LW and Iggy on right. I'm thinking maybe Kunitz-Geno-Neal and Geno is just playing placeholder for Dupuis-Iggy until Sid comes back.

And, there's IcedCapp, ******* chirping me, telling me it will be Iggy-Geno-Neal when Sid returns. And, I'm actually telling him 'no, the injuries afforded Bylsma the chance to see how combinations that he didn't consider worked so well together; no way he goes back to Iggy on LW'.

Then, it's Iggy on LW on Thursday? WTF do I say to him? I mean, I had no problem when Shero stepped up (starting with the Morrow for Morrow deal) saying he was going for it. I had no problem complimenting Bylsma for finally making adjustments or being big enough apparently to go with combos better than what he'd originally considered. Those things made the Pens better. Iggy at LW makes the Pens worse because it does more to neutralize Malkin than the other team's second defensive units or even his bum shoulder will.

Then, Friday practice comes. Kunitz and Neal are with Geno. I'm thinking and posting 'o'k, so Bylsma isn't blind . . . he say it didn't work with Iggy at LW; he liked Iggy at RW with Dupuis from Tuesday and is setting those two up to play with Sid'.

Now, it's Iginla-Malkin-Neal. And, WTF am I supposed to say?

I want the Pens to win the cup. I don't give a **** about player egos or who's supposed to play on what line. Robataille and Hull played on the 4th ******* line in Detroit because THAT was part of the best possible combination of personnel.

Perhaps that's why Scotty Bowman won cups and Dan Bylsma backed into one. Bowman only cared about winning the cup. Bylsma doesn't want to do that if it means hurting a veteran's feelings.

And, again, I cite Petr Sykora in 2009 and it taking a 2-0 hole to the Caps to wake Bylsma up on that one (and that was with a guy like Fitzie, not a couple of puppets, behind him to talk sense into him).

Remember yesterday? It was a time full of hope..

https://twitter.com/Dejan_Kovacevic/status/327818860554235905

We should have considered the source. Alas, desperation has such a blinding effect.

If his shoulder is a problem, I think he needs someone to help alleviate his time doing boardwork more than he needs a second shooter.

If his shoulder weren't a problem, then he'd still need that. Everyone but Bylsma sees it. Only times he saw it-- 2009 with Talbot with the 2-0 series hole desperation and last year with Kunitz but only because Sid was out-- are the two times that Geno absolutely killed it for him.

EDIT: I really want RRP to be right about Bylsma on this one, just like I wanted him to be right about Shero getting aggressive and Bylsma being able to make adjustments. I knew that Shero could. I just didn't know if he would. I thought that Bylsma might eventually. BUT, RRP, if there's one flaw in Bylsma that has defined his tenure, it is his complete lack of appreciation for why having a grinding puck retriever is a lot more critical for Malkin than playing with a guy like Neal. Not even you can argue otherwise.

 

[Get To Our Game]

The day Sid is in the lineup and we see Iginla-Malkin-Neal is when I worry. I'm thinking (read: hoping and praying) that DB just wants to see how Iginla does again on the left, wants to put him with the best available center, and plans on running Iggy on RW with Sid once he's back. Please let that be true.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Remember yesterday? It was a time full of hope..

https://twitter.com/Dejan_Kovacevic/status/327818860554235905

I honestly just don't get Byslma's mindset, especially in light of the fact Iggy on LW has yet to even look passable, let alone good.

Dupuis-Crosby-Iginla
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

That should be a no brainer. Instead, he's messing up chemistry on all the other lines just to stubbornly stick with Dupuis and Kunitz on Crosby's wing.

At the very least, I just hope he's not too ****ing stubborn to switch things up if the lines aren't working in the first game. Waiting until the Pens are on the brink of elimination before deciding maybe playing Sid with Iginla and moving Kunitz with Malkin would be cause for dismissal, IMO.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yes, shifting a future HOF RW to LW and Cooke to RW makes perfect sense in the name of Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis chemistry.

And, lest we forget, this is the genius coach who put Malkin at RW with Mike Comrie. That one was hard on the eyes. And guess why? Because it sucked, just like Iginla on LW sucks.

Some guys can play different positions. Some guys are decidedly better at one position than the other.

BUT, what do I know? You and Bylsma see more clearly than I why any 15 year veteran who has played one position his entire career and is a future HOF player at that position should be able to come in, learn a new system, switch to the other wing, and have it take no more than three weeks to happen seamlessly or without marked drop off in performance. It is what it is. I'll hope you're right, but only because the consequences otherwise are far worse.

Yeah, that was at a real crucial time of year, haha.

Coaches try different combinations that don't fit the categorizations that fans expect. Literally every coach of every NHL team. It's why fans create threads about how Hitchcock or Quenneville or Babcock are ignorant doofuses.

Wait and see if the combo doesn't work and Bylsma keeps trying to jam it together when it matters before you make sweeping judgements. Like Shero before the deadline, we haven't seen what Bylsma can do with a full complement of options at wing for a long time. Be patient and see how it plays out.

 

[IcedCapp]

And, there's IcedCapp, ******* chirping me, telling me it will be Iggy-Geno-Neal when Sid returns. And, I'm actually telling him 'no, the injuries afforded Bylsma the chance to see how combinations that he didn't consider worked so well together; no way he goes back to Iggy on LW'.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The day Sid is in the lineup and we see Iginla-Malkin-Neal is when I worry. I'm thinking (read: hoping and praying) that DB just wants to see how Iginla does again on the left, wants to put him with the best available center, and plans on running Iggy on RW with Sid once he's back. Please let that be true.

that was Bylsma's first instinct. Before Sid got hurt, it was Kunitz - Sid - Dupuis and Iginla - Malkin - Neal.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, that was at a real crucial time of year, haha.

Coaches try different combinations that don't fit the categorizations that fans expect. Literally every coach of every NHL team. It's why fans create threads about how Hitchcock or Quenneville or Babcock are ignorant doofuses.

Wait and see if the combo doesn't work and Bylsma keeps trying to jam it together when it matters before you make sweeping judgements. Like Shero before the deadline, we haven't seen what Bylsma can do with a full complement of options at wing for a long time. Be patient and see how it plays out.

He has tried it. It didn't work. And I don't know how tonight doesn't matter. Sure, it doesn't in the standings. But has the Geno-Neal line clicked all year? No. They could probably use practice with someone that might be a good fit there.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Wait and see if the combo doesn't work and Bylsma keeps trying to jam it together when it matters before you make sweeping judgements. Like Shero before the deadline, we haven't seen what Bylsma can do with a full complement of options at wing for a long time. Be patient and see how it plays out.

But he has tried Iggy/Malkin/Neal and it looked terrible in the 4 or 5 games they played together. It's not like it's a combination he hasn't tried yet, so we should wait and see.

How many games of that line looking "off" should we wait before we wonder what Bylsma is thinking?

 

[Waffle Fries]

I honestly just don't get Byslma's mindset, especially in light of the fact Iggy on LW has yet to even look passable, let alone good.

Dupuis-Crosby-Iginla
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

That should be a no brainer. Instead, he's messing up chemistry on all the other lines just to stubbornly stick with Dupuis and Kunitz on Crosby's wing.

At the very least, I just hope he's not too ****ing stubborn to switch things up if the lines aren't working in the first game. Waiting until the Pens are on the brink of elimination before deciding maybe playing Sid with Iginla and moving Kunitz with Malkin would be cause for dismissal, IMO.

Well this is now the second game in a row that the practice lines have been different from the game lines.

Thursday morning:
https://twitter.com/penguins/status/327446230466719744

#Pens morning skate info: 9-71-12 10-36-19 14-16-24 15-27-48 58-4 47-5 3-2 7-41

Thursday night:
https://twitter.com/penguins/status/327561543661260801

Tonight's #Pens Lines: Iginla-Malkin-Bennett, Kunitz-Jokinen-Dupuis, Morrow-Sutter-Cooke, Glass-Adams-Kennedy

Yesterday at practice:
https://twitter.com/penguins/status/327817946170789888

#Pens lines at practice: 14-71-18, 12-36-9, 10-16-24, 15-27-48 (19-87-33/17). D-pairs: 4-58, 3-2, 47-7, 5-41.

But we know for tonight that Iginla-Malkin-Neal is happening.

The lines in practice signal that Sid is centering Dupuis and Iggy and Malkin is centering Kunitz and Neal. Yet during the games, he keeps putting Iggy on Malkin's left.

It makes zero sense. The only logical explanation is that Iggy said he came here "to play with the two best players in the world" during his press conference, and Dan is making sure he does every game, but preparing for the playoff lines during practice.

Or he just chooses to be as illogical as possible.

 

[Ugene Magic]

While Iginla didn't come here to play with anyone other than Sid or Geno, he ultimately came here for one thing above all else, "winning the cup."

We're definitely over stating lines before everyone is back, and I truly believe they will be different when that does happen. Until then we shouldn't have a concern one bit.

So...whether he's on line:1-2-3 does it matter if it means winning a cup not playing on/in your customary spot?

I'll take it any way he ends up being because he adds so much anywhere he is. Yes. We all have preferences as to where that should be, but we also know DB also changes things up almost on a shift by shift basis.

1st line RW or 3rd line RW is the most sensible with either Sid or Jokinen who he's come to be most insyc with

Some might even call this a 3rd line here of Bennett/Morrow, Jokinen, Iginla, and they'd be right but also wrong. On a lot of teams that'd be a 1st/2nd.

Since these guys have come over they sure have produced like one.

Iginla - 12GP| 5-4-9
Jokinen - 9GP| 5-4-9
Morrow -14GP| 5-7-12

For - 15-16-31

1a/1b/1c

I certainly feel much stronger about having a 3rd line like that going forward. Or switching out Morrow with, Bennett.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

While Iginla didn't come here to play with anyone other than Sid or Geno, he ultimately came here for one thing above all else, "winning the cup."

-----

So...whether he's on line:1-2-3 does it matter if it means winning a cup not playing on/in your customary spot?

But the above is very much the issue, and why those of us arguing about these line combos are doing so.

Putting Iginla on his off-wing with Malkin and Neal does NOT give the Penguins, as a team, a better chance at winning the Cup, since they don't seem to have any chemistry.

It's not about playing Iginla with who we want to see him play with, it's about playing Iginla where he's most effective. And so far, there's been no indication that him playing LW on Malkin and Neal's line is where he's most effective. So far, it's actually been where he's least effective.

It's also about making sure Malkin has the right mix of players in order for *him* to be at his best. For whatever reason, he seems to be at his best when he's got a digger/grinder who can do the boardwork and physical stuff on his wing. Over the past two seasons, Malkin has looked at his most dangerous with Kunitz or Morrow (much smaller sample size, but still) on that wing. So why force feed Iginla onto that line when that's not even the type of player Geno needs?

 

[Ugene Magic]

But the above is very much the issue, and why those of us arguing about these line combos are doing so.

Putting Iginla on his off-wing with Malkin and Neal does NOT give the Penguins, as a team, a better chance at winning the Cup, since they don't seem to have any chemistry.

It's not about playing Iginla with who we want to see him play with, it's about playing Iginla where he's most effective. And so far, there's been no indication that him playing LW on Malkin and Neal's line is where he's most effective. So far, it's actually been where he's least effective.

It's also about making sure Malkin has the right mix of players in order for *him* to be at his best. For whatever reason, he seems to be at his best when he's got a digger/grinder who can do the boardwork and physical stuff on his wing. Over the past two seasons, Malkin has looked at his most dangerous with Kunitz or Morrow (much smaller sample size, but still) on that wing. So why force feed Iginla onto that line when that's not even the type of player Geno needs?

Really, he doesn't have any chemistry with either of Malkin or Sid to be truthful, both by there own merits. I do agree he's not the best fit on the LW, but if he say's he's getting comfortable with it we have to let it actually play out. It's not like they're supergluing him there.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

He has tried it. It didn't work. And I don't know how tonight doesn't matter. Sure, it doesn't in the standings. But has the Geno-Neal line clicked all year? No. They could probably use practice with someone that might be a good fit there.

But he has tried Iggy/Malkin/Neal and it looked terrible in the 4 or 5 games they played together. It's not like it's a combination he hasn't tried yet, so we should wait and see.

How many games of that line looking "off" should we wait before we wonder what Bylsma is thinking?

They played 4 games together when Iginla first came to the team.

I don't make too many definitive judgements based on 4 game sample sizes from players acclimating to a new team and a new position.

 

[Shockmaster]

They played 4 games together when Iginla first came to the team.

I don't make too many definitive judgements based on 4 game sample sizes from players acclimating to a new team and a new position.

Well, he played LW against New Jersey and looked very uncomfortable. Now isn't the time to acclimate a guy to LW who has played RW for 16 years when there are much better options.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

They played 4 games together when Iginla first came to the team.

I don't make too many definitive judgements based on 4 game sample sizes from players acclimating to a new team and a new position.

But it's an unnecessary move, especially this late in the season. Iginla has played RW his entire career. Why move him to LW, where he's looks uncomfortable, when other more reasonable options are available that wouldn't require anyone playing a position they're not familiar with?

Instead of going into the playoffs with all cylinders firing, Byslma's got Iginla learning a new position that he's never played (regularly) in his entire 16 year NHL career. It's nonsensical.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Well, he played LW against New Jersey and looked very uncomfortable. Now isn't the time to acclimate a guy to LW who has played RW for 16 years when there are much better options.

It's never a good time to try something that doesn't precisely fit the board's pre-conceived mindset of what will work and what won't. We still have people complaining about a line combination that DB tried in the fall of 2010 for a few games, for crying out loud.

It's the last game of the season and we have nothing to lose. People need to relax.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

But it's an unnecessary move, especially this late in the season. Iginla has played RW his entire career. Why move him to LW, where he's looks uncomfortable, when other more reasonable options are available that wouldn't require anyone playing a position they're not familiar with?

Instead of going into the playoffs with all cylinders firing, Byslma's got Iginla learning a new position that he's never played in his entire 16 year NHL career. It's nonsensical.

It makes sense, people just don't like it. He wants to try out a combination for longer than 4 games to see if it could work.

If it does, we get Crosby back into a familiar combination where he knows all the tendencies coming back from injury, a great 2nd line, and flexibility moving forward.

If it doesn't, Malkin and Neal aren't going to get amnesia and forget how to play with Bennett, Kunitz, Morrow, or whoever.

 

[DoktorZaius]

I'm fine with DB experimenting, but at some point he needs to realize what's working and what isn't. Hopefully he does that tonight.

We have in Kunitz and Dupuis two top 6 left wingers who can do the sort of grindy puck-retrieval style game we'd like out of a 3rd wheel.

In Iggy and Neal, we have two top 6 right wingers who make great shoot-first second wheels.

I just don't see why DB wants to experiment anymore, given the above, and given the fact that his experiments in shifting Jarome to the left have been overwhelmingly meh AT BEST.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It makes sense, people just don't like it. He wants to try out a combination for longer than 4 games to see if it could work.

If it does, we get Crosby back into a familiar combination where he knows all the tendencies coming back from injury, a great 2nd line, and flexibility moving forward.

If it doesn't, Malkin and Neal aren't going to get amnesia and forget how to play with Bennett, Kunitz, Morrow, or whoever.

Couldn't the same be said about Sid? If Crosby/Iginla/Dupuis doesn't work, there's nothing that says Bylsma can't go back to Crosby/Kunitz/Dupuis at a later date. And at least in that scenario (with Kunitz re-uniting with Geno and Neal), no one is playing a position they're unfamiliar with.

I just think Bylsma's being incredibly arrogant and stubborn about sticking with Dupuis/Kunitz on Crosby's wing, and in doing so he's having to jumble the other three lines unnecessarily. It's as if this is his stand against everyone else saying "Crosby and Iginla will be magic", his way of saying, "this is my team, I choose who plays with who, not the media".

 

[specialized]

How many games have you guys coached in the NHL? What's that none, OK let Dan do his job.
Thanks
This team has so much talent it really does not matter what the lines are.

 

[IcedCapp]

How many games have you guys coached in the NHL? What's that none, OK let Dan do his job.
Thanks
This team has so much talent it really does not matter what the lines are.

hfboards bingo! BINGO! I win!!!

 

[Waffle Fries]

I'm fine with DB experimenting, but at some point he needs to realize what's working and what isn't. Hopefully he does that tonight.

We have in Kunitz and Dupuis two top 6 left wingers who can do the sort of grindy puck-retrieval style game we'd like out of a 3rd wheel.

In Iggy and Neal, we have two top 6 right wingers who make great shoot-first second wheels.

I just don't see why DB wants to experiment anymore, given the above, and given the fact that his experiments in shifting Jarome to the left have been overwhelmingly meh AT BEST.

I'm going to reserve anger/judgment against Byslma until I see what the line rushes look like at practice with Sid in. He didn't practice in line rushes yesterday since he wasn't going to play tonight, but I'd have to imagine that he will during their next practice. For now I'm going to pretend that he's just trying to give Iggy the best available center during games.

With that said, I agree with everything in your post.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It makes sense, people just don't like it. He wants to try out a combination for longer than 4 games to see if it could work.

If it does, we get Crosby back into a familiar combination where he knows all the tendencies coming back from injury, a great 2nd line, and flexibility moving forward.

If it doesn't, Malkin and Neal aren't going to get amnesia and forget how to play with Bennett, Kunitz, Morrow, or whoever.

the difference, I guess, is that you think there's a chance it will work.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

How many games have you guys coached in the NHL? What's that none, OK let Dan do his job.
Thanks
This team has so much talent it really does not matter what the lines are.

Alright folks, HF should just shut down entirely. None of us are NHL coaches, GMs, or players. So there's really no point in even discussing anything on here since we're unqualified to do so.

It was nice knowing you all!