Speculation: How will the Blues eventually get a "true #1 center"?

Dbrownss

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Agreed. Army needs to go. He's hurting this franchise. Unfortunately, he won't get let go until attendance takes a dive. How long will that take and by the time it occurs, how much more damage will he have done by then?

Holy hell, can we stop with the melodrama?

He has turned this team into a successful franchise. He hasn't traded away a Tyler Seguin or a Fillip Forseberg.

Im not exactly excited about the team but lets not act like its some tire fire with no future.


As to the OP...I see no path in reality that nets the Blues a true 1c, without some uber hindsight trades.
 

Thallis

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Holy hell, can we stop with the melodrama?

He has turned this team into a successful franchise. He hasn't traded away a Tyler Seguin or a Fillip Forseberg.

Im not exactly excited about the team but lets not act like its some tire fire with no future.


As to the OP...I see no path in reality that nets the Blues a true 1c, without some uber hindsight trades.

??? He inherited a team ready to begin competing. The majority of his moves have been lateral at best
 

Dbrownss

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??? He inherited a team ready to begin competing. The majority of his moves have been lateral at best

The franchise as a whole is more successful under his direction and the people he has brought in. He could have just as easily sank the actual team. The success is still his. Just like if this team failed to make the playoffs for the last 5yrs. That would be on him.
 

phxblue

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Let's define a "true #1 center" as a player who plays most of his time at center and scores at least 70 points in a season; we haven't had one of those since Turgeon in 2000-01. Assuming the Blues eventually do get another player like that, how will we acquire him?

Either Fabbri, Kyrou or a future DP becomes an incredible draft steal - or - they acquire someone over the hill in the coming years (most likely scenario IMO), or Tank never plays with an All-Star center in his career.

That seems to be the 3 most likely scenarios to me. Although, one can hope a team makes a major mistake and trades away a legit #1 center, or let's that player walk, and that is young or in the prime of their career to us at some point. But this scenario is highly unlikely.
 

Ranksu

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What you guys think were there even slight possibility to trade Oshie + Shattenkirk for #1c?
~8mill.$ would go to other team might be too big cap return? But yeah could that be one choice in Army's mind back then? Tho he was so high on Brouwer + Copley, did he even think that possibility to trade both for one?
 

Dbrownss

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What you guys think were there even slight possibility to trade Oshie + Shattenkirk for #1c?
~8mill.$ would go to other team might be too big cap return? But yeah could that be one choice in Army's mind back then? Tho he was so high on Brouwer + Copley, did he even think that possibility to trade both for one?
You would have to find that guy, and he'd have to be available. If we're playing hindsight, I'd say the only chance would have been Seguin, which Boston would have been so much better off with.
 

Bluesguru

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Exactly, especially considering how poor Brouwer's playoff numbers were his entire career. Perron's are at least more respectable.

Not to take anything away from Troy but Stastny and Fabbri were playing some terrific hockey. Any player who is not terrible would have put up some points with them.

Perron is easily the better player.

How can Perron be easily the better player when he can't even command the same salary as Brouwer on the open market? The Blues are so dumb they over paid for Perron in free agency as the only other team to call Perron other than the Blues were the Canadiens and they offered substantially less. Furthermore, the Penguins didn't make their Cup run last year until they unloaded Perron. Lets disregard the leadership Brouwer brought, the physicality and edge he gave the Blues. Lets write off his production in the playoffs last year even though it was probably the first time in his career he was asked to play on a scoring line in the post season and he responded beautifully. Yeah, lets disregard Brouwer's durability, his 200 plus hits a year. We got Perron back - great!
 

Bluesguru

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The franchise as a whole is more successful under his direction and the people he has brought in. He could have just as easily sank the actual team. The success is still his. Just like if this team failed to make the playoffs for the last 5yrs. That would be on him.

I beg to differ. Armstrong took over the Blues with an established young nucleus with several players locked in bargain priced contracts. He was put in a very favorable position to succeed. I'll give him credit for hiring Hitch, as that was a beauty and it was by far the best move he ever made for himself as GM of the Blues. Hitch elevated those Blues teams. But a sharper, more astute GM would of taken this franchise to 1 or 2 Cup Finals. Instead, we've now entered a new phase where all those bargain priced contracts have expired and decisions are being made. IMO he's taking this team in the wrong direction & subsequently out of Cup contention. And the fact that the Blues have ZERO offensive talent readily available in their pipeline speaks volumes. Yeah, let Armstrong stick around a little longer so he can really take the Blues to new places. It won't surprise me at all if he ends up letting Shattenkirk walk. Armstrong has no vision, lacks imagination, is unable to use free agency properly in conjunction with trading his own assets for a 1st round pick. You can win and secure the future at the same time, but Armstrong trading for a number 1 pick is unheard of. But oh yeah, he's dealt away 3 since he's been here.
 
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Oberyn

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How can Perron be easily the better player when he can't even command the same salary as Brouwer on the open market? The Blues are so dumb they over paid for Perron in free agency as the only other team to call Perron other than the Blues were the Canadiens and they offered substantially less. Furthermore, the Penguins didn't make their Cup run last year until they unloaded Perron. Lets disregard the leadership Brouwer brought, the physicality and edge he gave the Blues. Lets write off his production in the playoffs last year even though it was probably the first time in his career he was asked to play on a scoring line in the post season and he responded beautifully. Yeah, lets disregard Brouwer's durability, his 200 plus hits a year. We got Perron back - great!

Commanding more in free agency doesn't make you a better player. Look at guys like Ladd and Boedker who commanded more than Perron and are having significantly worse seasons. You do realize Perron is third among the team in points so far right? Real dumb of us to sign him.

Trading Perron wasn't the reason the Penguins made the Cup finals. It had more to do with them changing their coach and Crosby actually playing up to his talent level.

Brouwer's role last year in the playoffs was similar to the roles he played in Chicago and Washington. He was a consistent 20 goal scorer with them, of course he would be put in a scoring role in the postseason.

Perron hasn't missed significant time since the 2011-12 season. In fact, he's missed a total of 16 games in the last 4 seasons combined.

I beg to differ. Armstrong took over the Blues with an established young nucleus with several players locked in bargain priced contracts. He was put in a very favorable position to succeed. I'll give him credit for hiring Hitch, as that was a beauty and it was by far the best move he ever made for himself as GM of the Blues. Hitch elevated those Blues teams. But a sharper, more astute GM would of taken this franchise to 1 or 2 Cup Finals. Instead, we've now entered a new phase where all those bargain priced contracts have expired and decisions are being made. IMO he's taking this team in the wrong direction & subsequently out of Cup contention. And the fact that the Blues have ZERO offensive talent readily available in their pipeline speaks volumes. Yeah, let Armstrong stick around a little longer so he can really take the Blues to new places. It won't surprise me at all if he ends up letting Shattenkirk walk. Armstrong has no vision, lacks imagination, is unable to use free agency properly in conjunction with trading his own assets for a 1st round pick. You can win and secure the future at the same time, but Armstrong trading for a number 1 pick is unheard of. But oh yeah, he's dealt away 3 since he's been here.

Doug Armstrong took over as GM in 2010. There was certainly a solid core in place with Backes/Oshie/Pietrangelo/Steen/Johnson, but nothing too impressive. Tarasenko and Schwartz were drafted when Armstrong took over. As for bargain contracts:

Oshie was still on his ELC.
Pietrangelo was still on his ELC.
Berglund was still on his ELC.
Steen's contract had just expired. Armstrong signed him to a new 4 year deal on July 1.
EJ's contract just expired. He was signed to a 2 year deal in August by Armstrong.
Backes was in the final year of a 3 year 7.5M contract.
McDonald was already signed to a 4 year contract at 4.7M AAV.

So really, the only bargain contracts that were in place were Backes, which was set to expire after that season, and McDonald. Everyone else, Armstrong had to sign himself. He's the one who signed Pietrangelo, Oshie, Steen, Tarasenko, Shattenkirk, Bouwmeester, etc. to fair deals. Let's not act like he was a beneficiary of good contracts, he had to go out and negotiate them himself. The most difficult contract to negotiate in a player's career is typically the one right after the ELC. The GM has to determine whether they are going bridge or long-term, as both come with their own set of risks. Armstrong had to handle these for Oshie/Pietrangelo/Berglund/Tarasenko/Schwartz/Shattenkirk and so on.

How exactly would a sharper, more astute GM, have taken this team to the Cup finals? You make it sound like it's so simple to just craft a well-rounded team that are Cup contenders while simultaneously have a strong prospect pool. Look at the past Cup winners and their prospect pools. The Hawks/Kings/Pens have hardly anything in the pipeline. I would love to hear how teams can win and secure the future at the same time.

Blues have some good offensive prospects in the system with guys like Barbashev, Thompson, and Kyrou. Are they the cream of the crop? No, but the Blues aren't really in a position where they need these prospects urgently. Even young guys like Yakupov/Jaskin/Rattie are finding it tough to hold down a permanent position on the club.

I'm curious about your statement that Armstrong is "unable to use free agency properly in conjunction with trading his own assets for a 1st round pick". Are you saying Armstrong should be trading our players for 1st round picks and replacing them through free agency? The only time Armstrong should have even considered trading a player for a first round pick is Shattenkirk this past offseason. The Blues are in a win-now mode, who should we have traded for 1st round picks? I guess Oshie is one, but then we wouldn't have gotten your favorite player in Troy Brouwer. He traded Perron for what was essentially a late first round pick. I'd like to know who he could have dealt to gain a first round pick. Furthermore, signing players in UFA usually ends in a death sentence due to the overpayment required. Let's be glad Armstrong didn't give a ridiculous contract to someone like Clarkson or Ladd.

I agree that Armstrong hasn't done an exemplary job in taking this club over the top, but he certainly did well to build a very solid foundation for the Blues going forward. He does lack a vision for this team which has been the ultimate detriment, but these issues surfaced in the past couple years. That doesn't mean we can discount what he's done in the early years of his tenure. The EJ/Shattenkirk trade was a terrific trade on his part. Signing Stastny to a short term deal despite being a UFA is another. He's does a very good job at getting players signed to fair value contracts.

It seems like you expect a GM to be perfect at balancing both the present and future of a team. That's not possible in today's NHL. There will always be ebb and flow in a team's success rate. You're going to have a window where the Cup is your main priority, and once that core begins to age you enter rebuild/retool mode where you start valuing youth.

I understand where you're coming from in your criticism of Armstrong, but you're grossly undervaluing the positive moves he's made for this club while over exaggerating his deficiencies.
 

TruBlu

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How can Perron be easily the better player when he can't even command the same salary as Brouwer on the open market? The Blues are so dumb they over paid for Perron in free agency as the only other team to call Perron other than the Blues were the Canadiens and they offered substantially less. Furthermore, the Penguins didn't make their Cup run last year until they unloaded Perron. Lets disregard the leadership Brouwer brought, the physicality and edge he gave the Blues. Lets write off his production in the playoffs last year even though it was probably the first time in his career he was asked to play on a scoring line in the post season and he responded beautifully. Yeah, lets disregard Brouwer's durability, his 200 plus hits a year. We got Perron back - great!

I have to politely disagree with your opinion on this. Even taking current goal and point totals aside (Perron currently leads in both), there are many factors that go into what teams offer players money wise, too many, in fact, to speculate why other teams did or did not want him or offered lower amounts. If Perron finishes the season on the same pace as he is on he will be a steal. Even if he doesn't, I don't see him being a bust at the price we got him for. His stats aren't misleading either. He has passed the eye test almost every night when he plays. Perron has great hockey IQ and has passed to another player twice on a 2 on 1 empty net where he could have padded his stats but played the team game.

I'll agree Brouwer played better defense and had better net front presence, but banking on him performing like he did this last postseason is wishful thinking I think, certainly not worth what Calgary paid him. My biggest problem with Brouwer is that he was a give and take player. He committed so many costly penalties that I could never get excited about him. As soon as he made a good play he gave up a costly offensive zone penalty that almost always immediately bit us in the rear.
 

simon IC

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Commanding more in free agency doesn't make you a better player. Look at guys like Ladd and Boedker who commanded more than Perron and are having significantly worse seasons. You do realize Perron is third among the team in points so far right? Real dumb of us to sign him.

Trading Perron wasn't the reason the Penguins made the Cup finals. It had more to do with them changing their coach and Crosby actually playing up to his talent level.

Brouwer's role last year in the playoffs was similar to the roles he played in Chicago and Washington. He was a consistent 20 goal scorer with them, of course he would be put in a scoring role in the postseason.

Perron hasn't missed significant time since the 2011-12 season. In fact, he's missed a total of 16 games in the last 4 seasons combined.



Doug Armstrong took over as GM in 2010. There was certainly a solid core in place with Backes/Oshie/Pietrangelo/Steen/Johnson, but nothing too impressive. Tarasenko and Schwartz were drafted when Armstrong took over. As for bargain contracts:

Oshie was still on his ELC.
Pietrangelo was still on his ELC.
Berglund was still on his ELC.
Steen's contract had just expired. Armstrong signed him to a new 4 year deal on July 1.
EJ's contract just expired. He was signed to a 2 year deal in August by Armstrong.
Backes was in the final year of a 3 year 7.5M contract.
McDonald was already signed to a 4 year contract at 4.7M AAV.

So really, the only bargain contracts that were in place were Backes, which was set to expire after that season, and McDonald. Everyone else, Armstrong had to sign himself. He's the one who signed Pietrangelo, Oshie, Steen, Tarasenko, Shattenkirk, Bouwmeester, etc. to fair deals. Let's not act like he was a beneficiary of good contracts, he had to go out and negotiate them himself. The most difficult contract to negotiate in a player's career is typically the one right after the ELC. The GM has to determine whether they are going bridge or long-term, as both come with their own set of risks. Armstrong had to handle these for Oshie/Pietrangelo/Berglund/Tarasenko/Schwartz/Shattenkirk and so on.

How exactly would a sharper, more astute GM, have taken this team to the Cup finals? You make it sound like it's so simple to just craft a well-rounded team that are Cup contenders while simultaneously have a strong prospect pool. Look at the past Cup winners and their prospect pools. The Hawks/Kings/Pens have hardly anything in the pipeline. I would love to hear how teams can win and secure the future at the same time.

Blues have some good offensive prospects in the system with guys like Barbashev, Thompson, and Kyrou. Are they the cream of the crop? No, but the Blues aren't really in a position where they need these prospects urgently. Even young guys like Yakupov/Jaskin/Rattie are finding it tough to hold down a permanent position on the club.

I'm curious about your statement that Armstrong is "unable to use free agency properly in conjunction with trading his own assets for a 1st round pick". Are you saying Armstrong should be trading our players for 1st round picks and replacing them through free agency? The only time Armstrong should have even considered trading a player for a first round pick is Shattenkirk this past offseason. The Blues are in a win-now mode, who should we have traded for 1st round picks? I guess Oshie is one, but then we wouldn't have gotten your favorite player in Troy Brouwer. He traded Perron for what was essentially a late first round pick. I'd like to know who he could have dealt to gain a first round pick. Furthermore, signing players in UFA usually ends in a death sentence due to the overpayment required. Let's be glad Armstrong didn't give a ridiculous contract to someone like Clarkson or Ladd.

I agree that Armstrong hasn't done an exemplary job in taking this club over the top, but he certainly did well to build a very solid foundation for the Blues going forward. He does lack a vision for this team which has been the ultimate detriment, but these issues surfaced in the past couple years. That doesn't mean we can discount what he's done in the early years of his tenure. The EJ/Shattenkirk trade was a terrific trade on his part. Signing Stastny to a short term deal despite being a UFA is another. He's does a very good job at getting players signed to fair value contracts.

It seems like you expect a GM to be perfect at balancing both the present and future of a team. That's not possible in today's NHL. There will always be ebb and flow in a team's success rate. You're going to have a window where the Cup is your main priority, and once that core begins to age you enter rebuild/retool mode where you start valuing youth.

I understand where you're coming from in your criticism of Armstrong, but you're grossly undervaluing the positive moves he's made for this club while over exaggerating his deficiencies.

I'm nit-picking here, but the bolded was not so over-whelmingly lopsided in the Blues favor as many people suggest. If Shattenkirk walks this year, what will the Blues have left from that trade? Rattie? The Av's will still have EJ, who will never live up to his 1st OA status, but is still nonetheless a good defenseman.
 

Bluesguru

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Guys, the fact that the Blues are worse this year speaks for itself regarding Perron, Armstrong, and the whole kit & caboodle. This team has regressed, it abandoned last years playing style that enabled them to make a serious run for the Stanley Cup. Shattenkirk & Steen were expendable pieces yet Steen has been locked up to another large extension and Shattenkirk has turned into a trade rental now which means the Blues won't get nearly as much had he been dealt on draft day back in the summer. Chances are he's probably going to end up walking. So in a nutshell, team abandons it's heavy style of play, unloads a ton of leadership & chemistry that was built last spring & instead of building off of that & being a potential front runner for a Western Conference Title this year, the Blues have regressed back to the pack, switching to a new style of play even though they have nothing in the farm system offensively that is readily available to contribute & build with. So team weakens itself, makes a strategic move in playing style yet lacks the necessary assets for the conversion, and on top of this the team is still spent to the cap. This is bad management.
 
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Bluesguru

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You do realize Perron is third among the team in points so far right? Real dumb of us to sign him.

Trading Perron wasn't the reason the Penguins made the Cup finals.


How exactly would a sharper, more astute GM, have taken this team to the Cup finals? You make it sound like it's so simple to just craft a well-rounded team that are Cup contenders while simultaneously have a strong prospect pool. Look at the past Cup winners and their prospect pools. The Hawks/Kings/Pens have hardly anything in the pipeline. I would love to hear how teams can win and secure the future at the same time.

Blues have some good offensive prospects in the system with guys like Barbashev, Thompson, and Kyrou.

I'm curious about your statement that Armstrong is "unable to use free agency properly in conjunction with trading his own assets for a 1st round pick". Are you saying Armstrong should be trading our players for 1st round picks and replacing them through free agency?

Perron isn't horrible but in my opinion this is a downgrade by Armstrong. Playoff hockey is what it's all about and the Blues had a team built for the playoffs last year. You can bet Chicago loves the new St. Louis Blues this year.

In regards to the Penguins, Perron was dealt for Hagelin, a guy who can actually fly. Getting Hagelin was a key piece as Phil Kessel came to life playing on the Bonino, Hagelin line. Penguins don't win the Cup without that trade. It was a big piece of the puzzle as Kessel finally found his niche there.

I think it's fair to say that Armstrong never found a way to get the Blues over the top. The Ryan Miller deal was not the answer. The Halak deal was a failure. Signing Derek Roy was a joke.

In terms of trading for a number 1 pick, Armstrong had a golden opportunity to trade Oshie for a number 1 pick and then he could of used free agency to sign a Joel Ward or Justin Williams, 2 guys that actually signed 2 year deals for 3.2M that year. Those guys are proven playoff performers, they would of been fine. Are they 200 hit guys like Brouwer? No. But in all honesty Armstrong held out so long with Oshie that he ended up backing into the Brouwer deal. I'm sure that wasn't what he was looking for. Fortunately it worked out for him, though I would of have liked him to have gotten a 2nd rd pick thrown in the deal and pass on the Copley & 3rd rd pick we ended up getting.

And Shattenkirk should have been dealt on draft day for the best possible 1st rd pick he could get. Rumor has it Boston offered the 14th pick & Ryan Spooner. To me that's fair. Get the pick and draft Brian Bellows kid Keifer Bellows. A big strong kid just like his father who can score.

And Steen could have been traded for the best possible pick available too. To me, this is all good. Unload Steen & Shatty, free up cash to help Hitchcock maintain his style of play. And you get a bunch of picks in the process. I mean what do we got now? No picks & a flawed switch in style of play/personnel. I don't like it.
 

TruBlu

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Guys, the fact that the Blues are worse this year speaks for itself regarding Perron, Armstrong, and the whole kit & caboodle. This team has regressed, it abandoned last years playing style that enabled them to make a serious run for the Stanley Cup. Shattenkirk & Steen were expendable pieces yet Steen has been locked up to another large extension and Shattenkirk has turned into a trade rental now which means the Blues won't get nearly as much had he been dealt on draft day back in the summer. Chances are he's probably going to end up walking. So in a nutshell, team abandons it's heavy style of play, unloads a ton of leadership & chemistry that was built last spring & instead of building off of that & being a potential front runner for a Western Conference Title this year, the Blues have regressed back to the pack, switching to a new style of play even though they have nothing in the farm system offensively that is readily available to contribute & build with. So team weakens itself, makes a strategic move in playing style yet lacks the necessary assets for the conversion, and on top of this the team is still spent to the cap. This is bad management.

There is no way to change the style and have all of the assets at once unless they had blown up the team after going to the WCF for the first time in forever...I think you'd agree that would have been phenomenally stupid. There is no way to make the transition to a new style without going through a year or two of growing pains while focusing on going after younger, more skilled players. The only other option would have been to keep the same style which would have seen us keeping an older, aged group of players that are no longer in their prime. That style has gotten us great success in the regular season, but we get smoked by teams in the postseason that play a style similar to what we are trying to transition to. I'd argue that the reason we did so well last season is largely in part because we added a couple of young players (Fabbri and Parayko) that are very much in line with the sort of assets we need in a faster style. Holding fast to the gritty hockey we have played in previous years would, in my opinion, put us on the fast track out of the cup window you spoke of earlier. I agree that DA has made some bad calls, but we could be in so much worse shape right now. I'll hold off on the blame DA Shatty situation until we see what the return is on him or if he walks.
 

Oberyn

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Perron isn't horrible but in my opinion this is a downgrade by Armstrong. Playoff hockey is what it's all about and the Blues had a team built for the playoffs last year. You can bet Chicago loves the new St. Louis Blues this year.

In regards to the Penguins, Perron was dealt for Hagelin, a guy who can actually fly. Getting Hagelin was a key piece as Phil Kessel came to life playing on the Bonino, Hagelin line. Penguins don't win the Cup without that trade. It was a big piece of the puzzle as Kessel finally found his niche there.

I think it's fair to say that Armstrong never found a way to get the Blues over the top. The Ryan Miller deal was not the answer. The Halak deal was a failure. Signing Derek Roy was a joke.

In terms of trading for a number 1 pick, Armstrong had a golden opportunity to trade Oshie for a number 1 pick and then he could of used free agency to sign a Joel Ward or Justin Williams, 2 guys that actually signed 2 year deals for 3.2M that year. Those guys are proven playoff performers, they would of been fine. Are they 200 hit guys like Brouwer? No. But in all honesty Armstrong held out so long with Oshie that he ended up backing into the Brouwer deal. I'm sure that wasn't what he was looking for. Fortunately it worked out for him, though I would of have liked him to have gotten a 2nd rd pick thrown in the deal and pass on the Copley & 3rd rd pick we ended up getting.

And Shattenkirk should have been dealt on draft day for the best possible 1st rd pick he could get. Rumor has it Boston offered the 14th pick & Ryan Spooner. To me that's fair. Get the pick and draft Brian Bellows kid Keifer Bellows. A big strong kid just like his father who can score.

And Steen could have been traded for the best possible pick available too. To me, this is all good. Unload Steen & Shatty, free up cash to help Hitchcock maintain his style of play. And you get a bunch of picks in the process. I mean what do we got now? No picks & a flawed switch in style of play/personnel. I don't like it.

You keep talking about Brouwer's hits and then you go the other way and talk about Hagelin's speed. Which do you need for playoff hockey in your view? Brouwer is not the fleetest of foot so Perron is more adept in that regard. Wouldn't this be considered a positive in your view then?

Sure, Armstrong could have traded Oshie for a first round pick, but there's no guarantee he could have landed either Ward or Williams. Both Ward and Williams took discounts to sign with their respective teams, that to me says that they wanted to sign there from the beginning. Besides, trading a forward and then banking on getting a replacement in FA is a risky move that could easily backfire.

There was no rumor that Boston offered the 14th pick and Spooner. Please cite your sources on this. It was rumored that Boston offered one of their first round picks, most likely their later one, and that was it.

Why on earth would the Blues trade Steen when they're in contender mode? I find it odd that you say we should have traded him so Hitchcock could maintain his style of play, when Steen is one of the perfect players for Hitchcock's system due to his solid two-way play. Not to mention, it was under Hitchcock that Steen developed into the 60 point player that he is today.

You're still not addressing the fact that you stated Armstrong "inherited a roster that was already set up to succeed". He was the one who signed almost all the core players to fair contracts. He had to orchestrate everything, from locking down key players to maneuvering around the salary cap. Funny how you cherry picked only certain parts of my response.
 

Oberyn

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I'm nit-picking here, but the bolded was not so over-whelmingly lopsided in the Blues favor as many people suggest. If Shattenkirk walks this year, what will the Blues have left from that trade? Rattie? The Av's will still have EJ, who will never live up to his 1st OA status, but is still nonetheless a good defenseman.

The Blues got six and a half seasons worth of Shattenkirk. Even if he walks, I wouldn't consider the Blues losers in the trade.
 

EastonBlues22

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Let's define a "true #1 center" as a player who plays most of his time at center and scores at least 70 points in a season; we haven't had one of those since Turgeon in 2000-01. Assuming the Blues eventually do get another player like that, how will we acquire him?
Tough standard. There's less than 15 centers on pace for 70 points or better this season, which is basically how it's been since 2010. That's a whole lot of teams without #1 centers, and some pretty big names (that I think most would consider #1 centers) have missed that cut at least once in recent memory.

My vote goes for "luck."
 

Bluesguru

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There is no way to change the style and have all of the assets at once unless they had blown up the team after going to the WCF for the first time in forever...I think you'd agree that would have been phenomenally stupid. There is no way to make the transition to a new style without going through a year or two of growing pains while focusing on going after younger, more skilled players. The only other option would have been to keep the same style which would have seen us keeping an older, aged group of players that are no longer in their prime. That style has gotten us great success in the regular season, but we get smoked by teams in the postseason that play a style similar to what we are trying to transition to. I'd argue that the reason we did so well last season is largely in part because we added a couple of young players (Fabbri and Parayko) that are very much in line with the sort of assets we need in a faster style. Holding fast to the gritty hockey we have played in previous years would, in my opinion, put us on the fast track out of the cup window you spoke of earlier. I agree that DA has made some bad calls, but we could be in so much worse shape right now. I'll hold off on the blame DA Shatty situation until we see what the return is on him or if he walks.

My point on trying to transition the team to a skating team is that this is a bigger project than people think. We don't have an elite center, hence the team indirectly admits this by drafting 7 centers in this past draft. Stastny is good, but he's not elite. And again, no immediate offensive help coming up. In my opinion this is going to take more than 2 years if they stay this course.

I agree about the kids last year, Fabbri, Parayko & Edmundson gave the team a much needed boost and basically they sealed the deal as the Blues became a more complete team.

To me it's all about winning the Cup. As a GM, you got to see that:
1) The Hawks are vulnerable as they have to rebuild their depth
2) The Kings aren't quite the same as in years past
3) Ditto for Anaheim
4) Dallas has goalie issues
5) Edmonton, Winnipeg, Arizona & Calgary are all upcoming teams but they aren't ready yet.

As GM, Armstrong has to see the opportunity his team has at getting a return trip to the WC Finals & another shot at a Stanley Cup. It's all about winning the Cup right? Sure, in years past the Blues style failed, but this past year was different, and the Conference as a whole is vulnerable right now, and the Blues unfortunately didn't move forward with the same type of team. This was the Blues time to shine & go for it. It all pointed in that direction. Coming off Conference Finals, 50th anniversary year, going back to the powder blue uniforms, got the Winter Classic at home. This was their year. I mean all Hitch talked about was how the locker room changed and everyone held each other accountable. That team made big strides last year and now the GM takes a U turn? Not only could the Blues have stayed big, but look at the free agent bargains out there that Armstrong passed on like Pirri, Vermette, Hudler, etc. Instead he held out for Sobotka & then had to settle for Yakupov - a 2.5M cap hit. Ouch! And another 3rd rd pick gone by the way. And why resign Pajaarvi and Rattie just so we can sit them again? Not good management & use of team funds!!
 
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Bluesguru

Registered User
Aug 10, 2014
1,957
823
St. Louis
You keep talking about Brouwer's hits and then you go the other way and talk about Hagelin's speed. Which do you need for playoff hockey in your view? Brouwer is not the fleetest of foot so Perron is more adept in that regard. Wouldn't this be considered a positive in your view then?

Sure, Armstrong could have traded Oshie for a first round pick, but there's no guarantee he could have landed either Ward or Williams. Both Ward and Williams took discounts to sign with their respective teams, that to me says that they wanted to sign there from the beginning. Besides, trading a forward and then banking on getting a replacement in FA is a risky move that could easily backfire.

There was no rumor that Boston offered the 14th pick and Spooner. Please cite your sources on this. It was rumored that Boston offered one of their first round picks, most likely their later one, and that was it.

Why on earth would the Blues trade Steen when they're in contender mode? I find it odd that you say we should have traded him so Hitchcock could maintain his style of play, when Steen is one of the perfect players for Hitchcock's system due to his solid two-way play. Not to mention, it was under Hitchcock that Steen developed into the 60 point player that he is today.

You're still not addressing the fact that you stated Armstrong "inherited a roster that was already set up to succeed". He was the one who signed almost all the core players to fair contracts. He had to orchestrate everything, from locking down key players to maneuvering around the salary cap. Funny how you cherry picked only certain parts of my response.

The Blues and Pens are 2 different teams. Brouwer was a fit for the Blues last year and Hagelin was what Pittsburgh wanted. Just pointed out that Hagelin was a great fit for Pittsburgh and Phil Kessel found himself after that trade. Since the Blues were more geared to size and grit, obviously I want to stay in that direction.

Armstrong could of gotten Ward or Williams if he wanted them and knew what he wanted to do from the very beginning. But he came out and said he wanted apples for apples. Remember? He flat out said he didn't want picks..........I mean, I just don't get it.

I agree, there's nothing written that Boston offered the 14th pick & Spooner, it was mentioned that a 1st rounder was offered from Boston, but you'd got to think that a deal like that would go thru if Armstrong wanted it. I mean Boston wanted Shattenkirk and they tried to strike a deal with us. That is legit. Why DA passes up a potential deal like this on draft day is frustrating.

To me Steen is expendable. You get rid of Steen & Shatty, and forget about tying up cap space for Sobotka and the Blues have more than enough money to improve the team. I'd rather keep Backes & Brouwer, and improve the roster off of that blueprint. Backes & Brouwer was this teams identity and backbone.

And yes Armstrong was set up to succeed. Backes, Oshie, Perron, Berglund, Peitrangelo, Erik Johnson and Steen were already here. And Tarasenko and Schwartz were just drafted. Yes, he was set up to succeed. Giving him credit for signing those guys to contracts is over doing it, I mean those guys were restricted free agents. It's easier to sign those guys to long term contracts at less money per year because the kids can't pass up the security. The fact that these guys were all young made Armstrong's job easier...........now those contracts have expired and the job is getting harder and we're seeing some peculiar moves in my opinion.
 

Evocable Manager

Registered User
Apr 20, 2016
3,837
883
St. Louis
Brouwer had 13 points in 20 games after the deadline to end the season. He continued that pace in the playoffs, yes, but at a completely unsustainable rate. The guy is a 20-15-35 player, literally nothing more than a 3rd line player who is big and good defensively. Those guys come and go, and can be found on every roster. He was not the backbone of this team and any team with him as the backbone will not ever win a cup. You're giving him way too much credit. I don't buy his "leadership." The guy won a cup playing on Chicago's third line with an incredibly stacked team. Congratulations, Ian Cole and Justin Schultz have won cups playing in minor roles as well. He was very good at getting open in front of the net, sure, but Fabbri and Stastny created a lot of space with how they were playing at the time. His contract is awful.

Backes being resigned is debatable. He is a great player, but what about two years from now? Hi play style isn't known for longevity.

You claim this was the best time to win a cup, and complain because we aren't going all out (resigning Backes and Brouwer) yet want to trade Shattenkirk and Steen who are guys cup contenders would absolutely want. That makes no sense.

Armstrong extended our window buy going through this retool, we are young and if he is smart we could be one of the better teams in the league for a while. That'll depend on some of the upcoming decisions however.

I'd give Armstrong some credit. He isn't my favorite and has made poor choices but has also made some good ones. He's the GM that managed to develop all of Tarasenko, Schwartz, Petro and others, as they were all rookies when he came. These guys are now our best players.
 

Bluesguru

Registered User
Aug 10, 2014
1,957
823
St. Louis
Brouwer had 13 points in 20 games after the deadline to end the season. He continued that pace in the playoffs, yes, but at a completely unsustainable rate. The guy is a 20-15-35 player, literally nothing more than a 3rd line player who is big and good defensively. Those guys come and go, and can be found on every roster. He was not the backbone of this team and any team with him as the backbone will not ever win a cup. You're giving him way too much credit. I don't buy his "leadership." The guy won a cup playing on Chicago's third line with an incredibly stacked team. Congratulations, Ian Cole and Justin Schultz have won cups playing in minor roles as well. He was very good at getting open in front of the net, sure, but Fabbri and Stastny created a lot of space with how they were playing at the time. His contract is awful.

Backes being resigned is debatable. He is a great player, but what about two years from now? Hi play style isn't known for longevity.

You claim this was the best time to win a cup, and complain because we aren't going all out (resigning Backes and Brouwer) yet want to trade Shattenkirk and Steen who are guys cup contenders would absolutely want. That makes no sense.

Armstrong extended our window buy going through this retool, we are young and if he is smart we could be one of the better teams in the league for a while. That'll depend on some of the upcoming decisions however.

I'd give Armstrong some credit. He isn't my favorite and has made poor choices but has also made some good ones. He's the GM that managed to develop all of Tarasenko, Schwartz, Petro and others, as they were all rookies when he came. These guys are now our best players.

You want guys that can step up and play big. The Blues have always needed that right? Brouwer proved his metal big time when things heated up. I want those kinds of players. And you don't give him credit for leadership? The guy that told Hitch to take a walk and lay off the team? C'mon. And by the way, only 30 players in the NHL last year got credited with at least 200 hits, so no, guys like Brouwer can't be found on every NHL roster as the Blues had 3 of those players last yr in Backes, Brouwer and Reaves.

And yes, the Blues best window for a Cup is now and yes you do rid yourself of Shattenkirk and Steen because you do have to shed salary to make it all work. These guys are replaceable. Heavyweights like Backes & Brouwer are not. You'll see this come April.
 

STLBloosiers

Registered User
Jul 14, 2014
443
57
Why do people think fabbri could be a number 1 center? The guy is 5 foot nothing and going up against Kopitar, Getzlaf, Johansen, Toews, Koivu, Seguin doesn't seem to sound appealing to me long-term. If only we could get Barkov from Florida
 

HolyJumpin

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
688
355
I think this team's biggest strength is going to be depth if it's anything. I think Stastny is about as decent of a center as we're going to see for the next few years on this team. Look, Stastny is have a pretty decent injury free year this year and it's paying off. I think really instead of trying to grab the biggest fish we can for a 1C we need to shift and start looking for a great 2C. I really wish the Blues had been able to grab Staal instead of the Wild but hindsight and all that.

This team just needs a good center that can take faceoffs and chip in offensively. And be Tarasenko's bff.
 

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