Speculation: How will the Blues eventually get a "true #1 center"?

Dbrownss

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Jan 5, 2014
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The Blues and Pens are 2 different teams. Brouwer was a fit for the Blues last year and Hagelin was what Pittsburgh wanted. Just pointed out that Hagelin was a great fit for Pittsburgh and Phil Kessel found himself after that trade. Since the Blues were more geared to size and grit, obviously I want to stay in that direction.

Armstrong could of gotten Ward or Williams if he wanted them and knew what he wanted to do from the very beginning. But he came out and said he wanted apples for apples. Remember? He flat out said he didn't want picks..........I mean, I just don't get it.

I agree, there's nothing written that Boston offered the 14th pick & Spooner, it was mentioned that a 1st rounder was offered from Boston, but you'd got to think that a deal like that would go thru if Armstrong wanted it. I mean Boston wanted Shattenkirk and they tried to strike a deal with us. That is legit. Why DA passes up a potential deal like this on draft day is frustrating.


To me Steen is expendable. You get rid of Steen & Shatty, and forget about tying up cap space for Sobotka and the Blues have more than enough money to improve the team. I'd rather keep Backes & Brouwer, and improve the roster off of that blueprint. Backes & Brouwer was this teams identity and backbone.

And yes Armstrong was set up to succeed. Backes, Oshie, Perron, Berglund, Peitrangelo, Erik Johnson and Steen were already here. And Tarasenko and Schwartz were just drafted. Yes, he was set up to succeed. Giving him credit for signing those guys to contracts is over doing it, I mean those guys were restricted free agents. It's easier to sign those guys to long term contracts at less money per year because the kids can't pass up the security. The fact that these guys were all young made Armstrong's job easier...........now those contracts have expired and the job is getting harder and we're seeing some peculiar moves in my opinion.

1st bold: absolutely BS. Williams was always going to sign in Washington. He wanted to play there. I distinctly remember an interview with him saying how his son wanted him to play with Ovechkin, who is his favorite player.

2nd bold: because they didnt offer enough, pretty simple. Boston fans were pretty adamant that the 14th wasn't on the table. Can't remember if sources were cited or not.

3rd bold: pay more attention to what's going on with RFAs around the league.
 

Evocable Manager

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You want guys that can step up and play big. The Blues have always needed that right? Brouwer proved his metal big time when things heated up. I want those kinds of players. And you don't give him credit for leadership? The guy that told Hitch to take a walk and lay off the team? C'mon. And by the way, only 30 players in the NHL last year got credited with at least 200 hits, so no, guys like Brouwer can't be found on every NHL roster as the Blues had 3 of those players last yr in Backes, Brouwer and Reaves.

And yes, the Blues best window for a Cup is now and yes you do rid yourself of Shattenkirk and Steen because you do have to shed salary to make it all work. These guys are replaceable. Heavyweights like Backes & Brouwer are not. You'll see this come April.

Brouwer had 1 lucky playoff run. The guy screwed us over with his penalties roughly the same amount that he scored.

Perron's career numbers are historically better. He is a better player, Brouwer was absolute crap before he played with Fabbri and Stastny.

Hits don't result in wins directly. To win games, you need to outscore the opponent. Playing a heavy game isn't any better or worse than having a speed/skill game. However, the league is trending towards speed and skill. Pittsburgh, Tampa, Chicago, San Jose, Washington, New York, Nashville are all speed and skill teams not heavyweights. All the upcoming teams, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Carlona are all skill/speed based as well.

That's not all, look at team NA from the WCH. They were all speed and skill, the best youth in the league. Tell me what young stars are big, heavy and truly bruising? Ekblad is big but isn't that bruising (same with Parayko). All of the young stars (Matthews, McDavid, Eichel, Larkin, Reilly, Ghost, etc.) games are based on speed and skill.

That means to be successful in the future, you have to adjust. The new norm in the NHL isn't what it was in the 80's.

Being a heavy team got us nowhere for 4 playoff runs, but one outlier where our best player was a rookie we drafted and spent no assets on (Fabbri) and we got incredible goaltending for a change.

I don't see how right now is best chance to win the cup. Steen and Shattenkirk aren't that replaceable. A 55 point premier TWF doesn't grow on trees and Shattenkirk is the best PP player in the league and a very good player. Both are great and losing them would sting. Steen is 100x better than Brouwer, in every regard except hitting. Shattenkirk is expendable and should've been moved but hasn't.

Around the league, Pittsburgh, Washington, Tampa, New York, Chicago, San Jose, LA, and Anaheim are still strong teams. You make it sound like winning the cup this year would be easy. It really won't be.
 

Falco Lombardi

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Nov 17, 2011
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Anyone else finding it hilariously ironic that letting go of Backes was a "good thing because he took too many penalties"

Anyone want to guess what team was tied for first going in to last night's game for most minors?
 

KirkOut

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Nov 23, 2012
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Anyone else finding it hilariously ironic that letting go of Backes was a "good thing because he took too many penalties"

Anyone want to guess what team was tied for first going in to last night's game for most minors?

The Charlestown Chiefs?
 

Ranksu

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Anyone else finding it hilariously ironic that letting go of Backes was a "good thing because he took too many penalties"

Anyone want to guess what team was tied for first going in to last night's game for most minors?

I thought we let Backes walk, 'cus he cost too much and term. Army moving different direction speed and skills?
 

Dbrownss

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Jan 5, 2014
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Anyone else finding it hilariously ironic that letting go of Backes was a "good thing because he took too many penalties"

Anyone want to guess what team was tied for first going in to last night's game for most minors?

Who said that? He was a stud last year in that deparment, Completely different player. Its a good thing we let him go because in a couple years, its likely he will be a grossly OP specialist player.
 

Oberyn

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Mar 27, 2011
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Anyone else finding it hilariously ironic that letting go of Backes was a "good thing because he took too many penalties"

Anyone want to guess what team was tied for first going in to last night's game for most minors?

Backes has 21 PIM this year which would be 2nd on our team. He's also played 6 less games than the Blues.
 

BlueDream

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Aug 30, 2011
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Perron isn't horrible but in my opinion this is a downgrade by Armstrong. Playoff hockey is what it's all about and the Blues had a team built for the playoffs last year. You can bet Chicago loves the new St. Louis Blues this year.
Do they? Even though we've played them well this year and are still more physical than them?

I'm glad you interviewed their players to find out.

How can Perron be easily the better player when he can't even command the same salary as Brouwer on the open market? The Blues are so dumb they over paid for Perron in free agency as the only other team to call Perron other than the Blues were the Canadiens and they offered substantially less. Furthermore, the Penguins didn't make their Cup run last year until they unloaded Perron. Lets disregard the leadership Brouwer brought, the physicality and edge he gave the Blues. Lets write off his production in the playoffs last year even though it was probably the first time in his career he was asked to play on a scoring line in the post season and he responded beautifully. Yeah, lets disregard Brouwer's durability, his 200 plus hits a year. We got Perron back - great!
So you think 3.7 million is overpaying a guy that has averaged 50 points a season in his career.

Excuse while I stop reading your posts.
 

Bluesguru

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Aug 10, 2014
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Do they? Even though we've played them well this year and are still more physical than them?

I'm glad you interviewed their players to find out.


So you think 3.7 million is overpaying a guy that has averaged 50 points a season in his career.

Excuse while I stop reading your posts.

You're missing the point. The Blues did overpay for him because they outbid themselves for his services. Nobody was knocking the door down to sign him. Look at all the free agent bargains that were still out there after the free agent signings died down. A guy like Vanek, who by his standards had a down year last year but yet still posted better numbers than Perron, he signed for only 2M. Stempniak who resuscitated his career earned a 2.5M deal. Yeah, the Blues did overpay for Perron. They could of had him at a cheaper price.
 

JoshFromMO

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How did this thread turn into an argument about Perron lol.

Anyway, Stastny is looking more like a 1C this season than his previous years, but he hasn't had that 10+ game injury just yet. If he could get serious time with Fabbri and Tarasenko, I think some damage could be done. However, he's been ripping it with Schwartz and Perron, so who knows really.
 

STL fan in MN

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Aug 16, 2007
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We have a #1, but he keeps getting played on the third line for some reason.

Our 3rd line lately has been Jaskin-Bergy-Yak/Rattie but I can't imagine you consider any of those 3 as a legit #1 C. I'm going to assume you mean Stastny...I'd say that Stastny is a lower tier #1 C but the problem is that he and Tarasenko play completely different styles of games and thus don't mesh well together. What the Blues need is a legit #1 C that meshes well with Tarasenko. Tarasenko and the Blues deserve better than to have his C be Lehtera.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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You're missing the point. The Blues did overpay for him because they outbid themselves for his services. Nobody was knocking the door down to sign him. Look at all the free agent bargains that were still out there after the free agent signings died down. A guy like Vanek, who by his standards had a down year last year but yet still posted better numbers than Perron, he signed for only 2M. Stempniak who resuscitated his career earned a 2.5M deal. Yeah, the Blues did overpay for Perron. They could of had him at a cheaper price.

Except Montreal made an offer and Perron has publicly said that he chose St. Louis because going to Montreal would have left too much money on the table. That's outbidding another team, not themselves.

Do you know how much Montreal offered? Do you know exactly how much money Perron was willing to leave on the table to sign for his hometown team? Do you know how close to that number the Blues' offer was? Unless you know all 3 of these things you are just blindly speculating when you claim the Blues overpaid by bidding against themselves.

Edit: For the record, I think Perron is easily a better player than Stemper or Vanek. Stemper put up points getting top line/PP minutes in NJ, but is consistently a 30-35 point player when not in that role (which he wouldn't be in here). Vanek is complete garbage away from the puck and is only remotely valuable when he is scoring. Perron is at least average away from the puck, is 4 years younger than Vanek, and is noticeably quicker. Not to mention Vanek clearly didn't mesh with Yeo. Perron is producing here and I think this team is unquestionably better with him than either Vanek or Stemper. That is worth an extra $1.25 mil in my book (Vanek makes $2.6, not $2).
 
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stl76

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Jul 2, 2015
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Do they? Even though we've played them well this year and are still more physical than them?

I'm glad you interviewed their players to find out.


So you think 3.7 million is overpaying a guy that has averaged 50 points a season in his career.

Excuse while I stop reading your posts.
Yup pretty much.


Anyway the correct answer to this poll is that they won't. I voted trade because I think it's the most likely, although striking gold with a mid first round draft pick is also possible. Really wish we could have moved up into the late teens or early twenties last summer and grabbed a C like Rubtsov.

I do think there is an outside chance of a FA signing, especially from Europe. A guy like Shipachyov comes to mind (even tho I'm not convinced he has what it takes be a legit #1 C in the NHL). Armstrong doesn't have a strong record of European signings tho.
 

Stealth JD

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Tavares has another 1.7 years until UFA. With the state of the Islanders, he may look around and ask himself, "why would I want to stay with this mess?", and look at his options with a contender. You've got to think if he's not extended before the end of this year, he's going to be looking at free agency. If the Blues can dump Berglund and replace Shatty with a ELC, the Blues could have $10M/year to throw at a guy like Tavares in the Summer of '18.

Whereas it once seemed unlikely that Tavares wouldn't resign in Brooklyn...the longer they remain in the tank, the more attractive a team like STL may appear.
 

Chojin

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Apr 6, 2011
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Tough standard. There's less than 15 centers on pace for 70 points or better this season, which is basically how it's been since 2010. That's a whole lot of teams without #1 centers, and some pretty big names (that I think most would consider #1 centers) have missed that cut at least once in recent memory.

My vote goes for "luck."

That's true; it's only been done 51 times by 23 centers since 2010-11. Maybe I should have used "elite" instead of "#1", as I was thinking of players like Kopitar, Pavelski, Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, etc.
 

Dbrownss

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Tavares has another 1.7 years until UFA. With the state of the Islanders, he may look around and ask himself, "why would I want to stay with this mess?", and look at his options with a contender. You've got to think if he's not extended before the end of this year, he's going to be looking at free agency. If the Blues can dump Berglund and replace Shatty with a ELC, the Blues could have $10M/year to throw at a guy like Tavares in the Summer of '18.

Whereas it once seemed unlikely that Tavares wouldn't resign in Brooklyn...the longer they remain in the tank, the more attractive a team like STL may appear.

Im with you on this fools hope. Deep down we know its not going to happen though lol.
 

Stealth JD

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Im with you on this fools hope. Deep down we know its not going to happen though lol.

Welcome aboard. Full-speed ahead. Next stop, FantasyLand.

We need someone to photo-shop Tavares' face in place of Lauren Holly's, telling Doug Armstrong that he's got about a 1-in-a-million chance of signing in St. Louis...and Dougie responding, "so you're telling me there's a chance".
 

Majorityof1

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Welcome aboard. Full-speed ahead. Next stop, FantasyLand.

We need someone to photo-shop Tavares' face in place of Lauren Holly's, telling Doug Armstrong that he's got about a 1-in-a-million chance of signing in St. Louis...and Dougie responding, "so you're telling me there's a chance".

I want to join the train too. Tavares is my dream pick for the Blues center. It's like a bedtime story. "Can you pwease tell me the one about when the Blues went through years of first round exits only to finally sign a franchise player that WASN'T past his prime, who led his merry band to slay the evil Blackhawk dragon and rescued the priceless relic, the Stanley Cup?" Then I fall asleep counting Blues hoisting the cup. 1, Pietrangelo, 2, Steen, 3, Tarasenko, 4, Stastny, 5, Fabbri, 6, zzzzzzzzzz........
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Tavares has another 1.7 years until UFA. With the state of the Islanders, he may look around and ask himself, "why would I want to stay with this mess?", and look at his options with a contender. You've got to think if he's not extended before the end of this year, he's going to be looking at free agency. If the Blues can dump Berglund and replace Shatty with a ELC, the Blues could have $10M/year to throw at a guy like Tavares in the Summer of '18.

Whereas it once seemed unlikely that Tavares wouldn't resign in Brooklyn...the longer they remain in the tank, the more attractive a team like STL may appear.

I don't think there is any chance that he re-signs with the Islanders. They got him on the best contract in hockey for 6 years on the promise that they would use the savings to field a competitive team. Given what they have done in that time (and currently), I don't see him taking another discount to stay with them. You should be able to build a contender around a prime Tavares that only costs $5.5 mil against the cap. At best, they have been bubble teams with a chance to make a little noise in the first couple rounds. Even if he is willing to take a discount to play for a contender, I don't see how they can sell him that the Isles will turn into one in the next 3-4 years. They have the worst record in the NHL and look a heck of a lot closer to a full rebuild than a playoff team. Tavares consistently showed chemistry with Okposo and putting Neilsen on Tavares' LW last year created what was the best line in hockey for a short period. So the Isles of course let both walk and used the money to sign Ladd to what has quickly become one of the worst contracts in hockey.

Why on Earth would he want to stick with that group, especially with all of the arena issues?

I think the Blues are a longshot to win the Tavares sweepstakes, but I don't think Tavares is an Islander after 2018. There are very few guys worth a $10 mil cap hit, but I wouldn't lose sleep if the Blues cleared space and made a $7 year, $70+ mil offer to Tavares. This thread shows how hard it is to find an elite center and there is no question that Tavares is elite. He will be turning 28 at the start of the 2018-19 season, so I think he would be worth the money for 4-5 years of that deal. The deal doesn't look great in the last couple years, but I think it is well worth giving this team an elite center for 4 years.

We have the cap flexibility. Only 8 guys are under contract for 2018-19 and most the guys coming off the books are not part of the core. Those 8 guys include 3 legit top 6 forwards (Tarasenko/Steen/Schwartz), 3 top 4 D (Petro/J-Bo/Gunnar) and a starting goalie. There is also Lehtera. I think it is reasonable to expect the Blues to lock up Fabbri/Parayko with term for under $12 mil. Add in Tavares at $11 mil and we have a very, very good 11 man core with $10+ mil in space to fill in the missing parts. It would get tight, but there is the flexibility to do it. Most the parts to fill in are fringe guys and have a lot of young D that should theoretically be able to cheaply fill a couple D spots without being liabilities. Hope that Barbashev or Thompson can play legit NHL minutes by then and it is very doable to build a decent 3rd line while remaining under the cap.

Obviously there are tons of moving parts, an expansion draft and a lot of time between now and then. All of this will change, but my point is that a huge offer to Tavares is doable given that cap flexibility we have from 2018 onward. Army deserves some blame for asset management, but his cap management has put us in a pretty good spot in the future.

Just for dreaming sake:

Fabbri-Tavares-Tarasenko
Schwartz-Lehtera-XXX
Steen-Thompson/Barbashev-XXX
XXX-XXX-XXX

Bouw-Petro
Gunnar-Parayko
2 of Ed/Lind/Schwartz/Dunn/Walman

Allen
XXX

Fill in those XXXs with 1-2 young/cheap guys, 1 or 2 of Army's famous tryout to roster spot deals and an adequate ackup and you have a pretty good looking roster that can get under the cap. I think we can safely assume that we will have 2-3 young forwards that can be 3rd line NHL players in 2 years (including Jaskin, Yak, Rattie, anyone already drafted and anyone drafted this year and next year). Assuming that is the case, our depth shouldn't take a huge hit if we went this route.
 
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2 Minute Minor

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Jun 3, 2008
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I don't think there is any chance that he re-signs with the Islanders. They got him on the best contract in hockey for 6 years on the promise that they would use the savings to field a competitive team. Given what they have done in that time (and currently), I don't see him taking another discount to stay with them. You should be able to build a contender around a prime Tavares that only costs $5.5 mil against the cap. At best, they have been bubble teams with a chance to make a little noise in the first couple rounds. Even if he is willing to take a discount to play for a contender, I don't see how they can sell him that the Isles will turn into one in the next 3-4 years. They have the worst record in the NHL and look a heck of a lot closer to a full rebuild than a playoff team. Tavares consistently showed chemistry with Okposo and putting Neilsen on Tavares' LW last year created what was the best line in hockey for a short period. So the Isles of course let both walk and used the money to sign Ladd to what has quickly become one of the worst contracts in hockey.

Why on Earth would he want to stick with that group, especially with all of the arena issues?

I think the Blues are a longshot to win the Tavares sweepstakes, but I don't think Tavares is an Islander after 2018. There are very few guys worth a $10 mil cap hit, but I wouldn't lose sleep if the Blues cleared space and made a $7 year, $70+ mil offer to Tavares. This thread shows how hard it is to find an elite center and there is no question that Tavares is elite. He will be turning 28 at the start of the 2018-19 season, so I think he would be worth the money for 4-5 years of that deal. The deal doesn't look great in the last couple years, but I think it is well worth giving this team an elite center for 4 years.

We have the cap flexibility. Only 8 guys are under contract for 2018-19 and most the guys coming off the books are not part of the core. Those 8 guys include 3 legit top 6 forwards (Tarasenko/Steen/Schwartz), 3 top 4 D (Petro/J-Bo/Gunnar) and a starting goalie. There is also Lehtera. I think it is reasonable to expect the Blues to lock up Fabbri/Parayko with term for under $12 mil. Add in Tavares at $11 mil and we have a very, very good 11 man core with $10+ mil in space to fill in the missing parts. It would get tight, but there is the flexibility to do it. Most the parts to fill in are fringe guys and have a lot of young D that should theoretically be able to cheaply fill a couple D spots without being liabilities. Hope that Barbashev or Thompson can play legit NHL minutes by then and it is very doable to build a decent 3rd line while remaining under the cap.

Obviously there are tons of moving parts, an expansion draft and a lot of time between now and then. All of this will change, but my point is that a huge offer to Tavares is doable given that cap flexibility we have from 2018 onward. Army deserves some blame for asset management, but his cap management has put us in a pretty good spot in the future.

I remember reading these types of posts about Stamkos not long ago. I'm sure Armstrong will make a pitch to Tavares, but I don't see how the Blues will be in a position to win that auction.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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I remember reading these types of posts about Stamkos not long ago. I'm sure Armstrong will make a pitch to Tavares, but I don't see how the Blues will be in a position to win that auction.

Totally agree and like I said, I don't think we win the auction. But I'd much, much, much rather heave money at Tavares than Stamkos. I think he is a better player, better suited to play with Tarasenko and I have far fewer concerns about longevity. I'm generally against the big free agent splash, but would be 100% on board with Tavares.

My point is just that we have the cap flexibility to make a push and i don't see us losing that flexibility in the next 12-18 months.
 

2 Minute Minor

Hi Keeba!
Jun 3, 2008
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Totally agree and like I said, I don't think we win the auction. But I'd much, much, much rather heave money at Tavares than Stamkos. I think he is a better player, better suited to play with Tarasenko and I have far fewer concerns about longevity. I'm generally against the big free agent splash, but would be 100% on board with Tavares.

My point is just that we have the cap flexibility to make a push and i don't see us losing that flexibility in the next 12-18 months.

I agree regarding Tavares vs Stamkos. Tavares is a bit underappreciated in the West in general, but he's a guy that should command a top 10 salary in the league as an UFA pretty easily. I sure would love to see him in a Bluenote.
 

Dbrownss

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I agree regarding Tavares vs Stamkos. Tavares is a bit underappreciated in the West in general, but he's a guy that should command a top 10 salary in the league as an UFA pretty easily. I sure would love to see him in a Bluenote.

He would he worth it. Dude is a stud
 

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