How Many Players Have a Claim to Being the GOAT at Each Position?

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'm sorry - this is debatable?

hull played at the same time as mahovlich, unassailably a top five LW all time.

ovechkin’s LW reign has coincided with good competition relative to, say, robitaille and goulet’s primes but to the poster whom you quoted’s point, there’s a decent argument that trophy counting might favour ovie over hull given whom they had to beat to rack up all those first team all-stars.

 

[Fantomas]

hull played at the same time as mahovlich, unassailably a top five LW all time.

ovechkin’s LW reign has coincided with good competition relative to, say, robitaille and goulet’s primes but to the poster whom you quoted’s point, there’s a decent argument that trophy counting might favour ovie over hull given whom they had to beat to rack up all those first team all-stars.

A fully global NHL = the best competition.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

A fully global NHL = the best competition.

Not if its spread over 30 teams as opposed to 6.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

A fully global NHL = the best competition.

yeah that doesn’t really respond to my explanation for the guy posted’s argument

but you do you

 

[member 51464]

If looking at what was actually done than what might have been, isn't the only argument for Mario over Wayne on special teams? As a lifelong penguins fan who grew up idolizing Super Mario, he'll always be my favorite player. But it doesn't change what Wayne actually accomplished.

 

[tinyzombies]

The funny thing is that you put the greatest goalie of all time as your starter but the best goalie ever is Price, really...

We are really talking about who was the best vs their own era here, not about who REALLY is the best. Price would go to any era and completely dominate. There are some eras where they would struggle to score even one goal.

Same for Gretzky, he was amazing in that context where only some teams were playing systems and today the scouts say that hockey sense is the number one criteria. But if he played today, is he even a first liner? I'm gonna say yes, but I'm not sure. Lemieux I have no doubt about and McDavid would absolutely shred the 1980s a new orifice.

 

[Fantomas]

Not if its spread over 30 teams as opposed to 6.

Doesn't make much difference. The best group of players on six teams is the same group of players on 30 teams.

But in Hull's time all those players came from the same pond.

 

[Fantomas]

yeah that doesn’t really respond to my explanation for the guy posted’s argument

but you do you

I was addressing what you said - specifically the part I quoted. *shrug*

 

[Boxscore]

Carey Price (best goalie ever - overtaking Hasek)

Wait, what?

Price isn't even Top-10 all-time.

 

[Mr Burns]

We are really talking about who was the best vs their own era here, not about who REALLY is the best. Price would go to any era and completely dominate. There are some eras where they would struggle to score even one goal.

Same for Gretzky, he was amazing in that context where only some teams were playing systems and today the scouts say that hockey sense is the number one criteria. But if he played today, is he even a first liner? I'm gonna say yes, but I'm not sure. Lemieux I have no doubt about and McDavid would absolutely shred the 1980s a new orifice.

LOL please... You said Price is the best goalie ever, not of his era... I'm a huge Habs fan and he is even not the best goalie of his generation... By the way Roy is a goalie who would be the best and completely dominate in any era.

 

[tinyzombies]

LOL please... You said Price is the best goalie ever, not of his era... I'm a huge Habs fan and he is even not the best goalie of his generation... By the way Roy is a goalie who would be the best and completely dominate in any era.

go back and look at some of the goals Roy used to let in. He is a proto goalie like all the rest. You asked for the GOATS, not the goats vs their own era or the best career or the best of their era or even the best career vs their own era. The players Have backed Price as the best for a while now. Welcome to the truth.

I’m not convinced all our other saints would hold their position today either. If we sent Miro Heiskanen back in time we might all be sitting here talking about The Great Miro.

Do I think Price will remains the GOAT for long? No because these goalies are in another level now, odds are he will be surpassed pretty soon. He has been outperformed here and there but overall I think he’s the most talented goalie I’ve ever seen and I’ve been watching since 76.

if you wanna say best CAREER and then best vs his own ERA, that’s two separate qualifications. Roy obviously has the best career but he was no Hasek.

 

[VanIslander]

The reason why Roy is the greatest playoff goalie of all time is his ability to BOUNCE BACK from a bad game. In fact, you often had to go "Oh, oh" after your team embarrassed him. He was gonna make you pay.

Tangentially, the reason why Hasek is the greatest regular season goalie of all time is his ability to PLAY BETTER AFTER MORE SHOTS FACED. I recall him getting 15 shots in the 1st period and thinking my Peca's team has the win. Then, in games where he faced 6 shots in the opening period, I worried about his play thereafter. Hockey media has repeated my impression.

 

[tinyzombies]

The reason why Roy is the greatest playoff goalie of all time is his ability to BOUNCE BACK from a bad game. In fact, you often had to go "Oh, oh" after your team embarrassed him. He was gonna make you pay.

Tangentially, the reason why Hasek is the greatest regular season goalie of all time is his ability to PLAY BETTER AFTER MORE SHOTS FACED. I recall him getting 15 shots in the 1st period and thinking my Peca's team has the win. Then, in games where he faced 6 shots in the opening period, I worried about his play thereafter. Hockey media has repeated my impression.

the Olympics and that 99 run aren’t regular season. Roy has those two amazing cup runs but he had the Avs in front of him after that. He also blew the Cup once with his ridiculous showboating. And even in those cup runs - go look at some of the goals he let in...and hardly any of those guys could shoot the puck. Habs win those Cups easily if Price is the goalie. I’m not saying anything Dryden hasn’t said or implied. It’s obvious. And not only that, I don’t think it’s even close.

 

[VanIslander]

the Olympics and that 99 run aren’t regular season.

Uh, I went to Sabres regular season games when living in Southern Ontario 1994-1997 and Hasek won two REGULAR SEASON Hart trophies and six regular season Vezinas (half of them i witnessed some of in the stands).

The Olympics and one time he had any support in the playoffs was gravy/an exclamation point on his career!

 

[tinyzombies]

Uh, I went to Sabres regular season games when living in Southern Ontario 1994-1997 and Hasek won two REGULAR SEASON Hart trophies and six regular season Vezinas.

The Olympics and one time he had any support in the playoffs was gravy/an exclamation point on his career!

I’m agreeing with you- he was my goat until these new monster goalies came out. He might even have been passed by someone before Price- would have to look at it closely. Not likely. That would mean Lundqvist probably and I don’t consider him better than Hasek.

the game has changed now and everyone can shoot and skate and they have elaborate offensive tactics. Hasek might be the ONLY guy you could put in today’s game who would maintain his previous standard but he would have to make major adjustments.

 

[VanIslander]

People forget 1994.


Here are all 70 saves in a 1-0 Sabres win that forced a Game 7.

That's when everyone went WTF?

 

[quoipourquoi]

You asked for the GOATS, not the goats vs their own era or the best career or the best of their era or even the best career vs their own era. The players Have backed Price as the best for a while now. Welcome to the truth.

“The players” voted that Patrick Roy was the best goaltender of all-time in the 2017-18 NHLPA player poll. He received 142 of 361 votes. Carey Price received 11.

 

[VanIslander]

Most players were Canadian.
They voted for the Canadian playing for a Canadian team.

As a Canadian myself, I saw the expressed pride (2002 Olympics) and frustration (Hasek in 1998 Olympics).

So,... I wasn't surprised when the Czech playing for an American team lost that vote. Not surprised at all.

 

[Doctor No]

Most players were Canadian.
They voted for the Canadian playing for a Canadian team.

As a Canadian myself, I saw the expressed pride (2002 Olympics) and frustration (Hasek in 1998 Olympics).

So,... I wasn't surprised when the Czech playing for an American team lost that vote. Not surprised at all.

Right, but the players voted for Roy over Price (both Canadians) - so this doesn't really counter QPQ's response to "Price is the best".

 

[VanIslander]

Ah...

 

[quoipourquoi]

Yeah, as far as I know, the only poll or list that suggested a high placement for Carey Price was from the fringe support of the 50th anniversary NHLPA player poll, and when Steve Simmons had him 35th on an all-positions list (between Hall and Dryden).

Simmons said “Five years from now, he should be hanging somewhere around the top 10.” So that would be... Christmas 2021.

Great player, but even in the time machine argument, we’re talking about a player who was drafted the same year the other went into the HOF; it’s not that big of a time gap.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yeah, as far as I know, the only poll or list that suggested a high placement for Carey Price was from the fringe support of the 50th anniversary NHLPA player poll, and when Steve Simmons had him 35th on an all-positions list (between Hall and Dryden).

Simmons said “Five years from now, he should be hanging somewhere around the top 10.” So that would be... Christmas 2021.

Great player, but even in the time machine argument, we’re talking about a player who was drafted the same year the other went into the HOF; it’s not that big of a time gap.

I wouldn't even call him a great player.

One huge season and that's about it.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

go back and look at some of the goals Roy used to let in. He is a proto goalie like all the rest. You asked for the GOATS, not the goats vs their own era or the best career or the best of their era or even the best career vs their own era. The players Have backed Price as the best for a while now. Welcome to the truth.

I’m not convinced all our other saints would hold their position today either. If we sent Miro Heiskanen back in time we might all be sitting here talking about The Great Miro.

Do I think Price will remains the GOAT for long? No because these goalies are in another level now, odds are he will be surpassed pretty soon. He has been outperformed here and there but overall I think he’s the most talented goalie I’ve ever seen and I’ve been watching since 76.

if you wanna say best CAREER and then best vs his own ERA, that’s two separate qualifications. Roy obviously has the best career but he was no Hasek.

Only if you go back and look at some of the goals Price lets in.

 

[Doctor No]

The "players today would be the best ever, because players today are better than ever" argument is lazy as shit.

It's a waste of everyone's time and it pollutes the very nature of the History subforum, where all posters ostensibly respect the rich tapestry of the game and the players who played it.

 

[tinyzombies]

The "players today would be the best ever, because players today are better than ever" argument is lazy as shit.

It's a waste of everyone's time and it pollutes the very nature of the History subforum, where all posters ostensibly respect the rich tapestry of the game and the players who played it.

What's lazy is not looking at the absolute garbage that goalies back then let in. It’s there for anyone to see. There’s many goalies today who have surpassed Roy. Many.

Price is bigger, a better athlete, quicker, way way way more flexible, miles ahead technically and excels against vastly superior opponents who skate and shoot way better and are tactically several levels above players from the 80s and 90s. Price simply can get his bigger body in better position and get to more pucks, which takes him to another anticipatory level. Today everyone can shoot the puck, whereas you have 3-4 guys per team back then. You don't even have an argument if you say Roy's teams were not as good systems-wise in front of him because he played during the trap era. If you are having a literal all-time draft with players frozen at their peak and you take Roy over Price, your goaltending will be average at best. Even if you upgrade Roy to Price's standard technically, he's still smaller and slower. Is he any better than Halak? I'm not sure, but that's around where I would place Roy's ACTUAL value. If there was a goalie who could make the jump, for me it might be Hasek, but I still think Price can make any save Hasek can but more efficiently.

Same argument goes for McDavid, etc.

I understand the pain this causes, but this pain was allowed in by how the question was formulated.