Nathaniel Skywalker
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How Many Players Have a Claim to Being the GOAT at Each Position?
- Thread starter Professor What
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Professor What
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I hereby resign as a member of the human race. I refuse to be counted among such idiots.
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Nathaniel Skywalker
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Professor What
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Professor What
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All joking aside, the history boards looked good on here and this is why I decided to join anyway. So far, I haven't been disappointed.
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You won't be. Some people on here forgot more than I'll ever learn. Great discussions here by the best fans of the game.
LeBlondeDemon10
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Yes we know...you remind us every thread.
vadim sharifijanov
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it’s nice to have a hobby
When facts point in the opposite direction, persuasion by attrition represents the only remaining option. It's the well-worn tactic of many a forum's power users. And for that matter, also many of life's power users.
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You also said you think Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin, so people can gauge your posts accordingly.
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I don't see a remote case for anyone over Gretzky or Howe at their positions. It's Lemieux homers vs the world.
Bobby Orr has gaping flaws in his resume. I'm not convinced that if "The player who gives you the best chances to win the most cups" is the criteria, Bobby Orr comes out ahead of every other defenseman. If all you're thinking about is "best" then sure, it's a slam dunk probably. To me Orr's status at the top of the defense mountain is questionable. There are other players with no weaknesses, albeit without anything close to Orr's peak.
At LW there is a good debate to be had between Hull Sr. and Ovechkin.
At G there is a gaggle of players who can lay claim.
Bobby Orr has gaping flaws in his resume. I'm not convinced that if "The player who gives you the best chances to win the most cups" is the criteria, Bobby Orr comes out ahead of every other defenseman. If all you're thinking about is "best" then sure, it's a slam dunk probably. To me Orr's status at the top of the defense mountain is questionable. There are other players with no weaknesses, albeit without anything close to Orr's peak.
At LW there is a good debate to be had between Hull Sr. and Ovechkin.
At G there is a gaggle of players who can lay claim.
vadim sharifijanov
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i posted the same, that C and RW (and D of course) have one reasonable answer. but actually i wonder whether rocket over howe could be slightly more defensible than ovechkin to date over hull.
i definitely would say rocket > howe is much closer to 1% for me than 66 > 99.
tinyzombies
Registered User
Best career vs Best player at each position
CENTER
Wayne Gretzky (best career of anyone ever at any position)
Mario Lemieux and Connor McDavid (best player - tie)
RIGHT WING
Gordie Howe (best career and player at RW)
LEFT WING
Bobby Hull (best career and player at LW)
LEFT DEFENSE
Nick Lidstrom (best career and player at LD)
RIGHT DEFENSE
Bobby Orr (best career and player at RD)
GOALTENDER
Patrick Roy (best career)
Carey Price (best goalie ever - overtaking Hasek)
CENTER
Wayne Gretzky (best career of anyone ever at any position)
Mario Lemieux and Connor McDavid (best player - tie)
RIGHT WING
Gordie Howe (best career and player at RW)
LEFT WING
Bobby Hull (best career and player at LW)
LEFT DEFENSE
Nick Lidstrom (best career and player at LD)
RIGHT DEFENSE
Bobby Orr (best career and player at RD)
GOALTENDER
Patrick Roy (best career)
Carey Price (best goalie ever - overtaking Hasek)
Roy
Orr-Lidstrom
Howe-Gretzky-Hull
vs.
Hull-McDavid-Howe
Lidstrom-Orr
Price
Orr-Lidstrom
Howe-Gretzky-Hull
vs.
Hull-McDavid-Howe
Lidstrom-Orr
Price
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Fun thread. There's a few really bad takes so far in this thread however.
Beliveau has no case at center, sorry. Shocked he's been brought up more than once. It's Gretzky, or Lemieux.
Also - those saying Lemieux has no case are out to lunch. I agree that Gretzky was "greater", and that Lemieux has a better claim when it comes to "best" (and here too - Gretzky might actually be ahead, but close) - but simply by the fact that you've all participated in hundreds of threads debating the merits of Gretzky vs Lemieux is proof that Lemieux is absolutely in consideration by many as goat, which is the question.
Coming back to Beliveau - I actually agree with the poster who brought up McDavid in thinking he has a better claim than Beliveau (probably Crosby more than McDavid, whose only 5 seasons in...). At least in that case you might say "new era, more parity/harder league" and try to make a case around that. I don't see the case for Beliveau above Gretzky whatsoever. For what it's worth Crosby neither - I just think it's probably a bit easier with Crosby/McDavid to mount an argument than Beliveau.
Orr....is tricky. He's obviously the best and greatest. But considering he only played ~9yrs - I've seen some posters try to argue "career value" of Bourque or even Lidstrom above him. So I suppose it comes down to the question being asked. If it's "who do you draft for a full career" - I've definitely seen claims for Bourque and Lidstrom, even if it is a bit of an extreme opinion.
I have Gordie Howe as the "weakest" big 4 member, but he might be the only unanimous choice here surprisingly at right wing. I'm very high on Jagr but I don't think he has a case, nor do I think even the new generation tries to ever argue him above Howe. I think the more interesting name might be Richard - since he played head to head with Howe and many considered him better back then. I don't know that I ever really run into that opinion these days though - so yes Howe only at right wing.
Left Wing - Hull or Ovechkin. Their NHL careers are very, very close. I think the WHA years still differentiate Hull - but either way it's close and many people would consider Ovechkin above Hull, which is the question, regardless if you agree.
Goalies - Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Plante are the easy ones for me. If you want to expand a bit and allow for more uncommon opinions, Tretiak is a name that definitely pops up, it helps that he didn't play in the NHL so there's question marks. Beyond that - i'm honestly not sure. Hall, Sawchuk and Dryden maybe - but I don't know that they ever really get argued for all the way at #1 - i'm tempted to leave all 3 names off. Just depends how inclusive we want to be.
Beliveau has no case at center, sorry. Shocked he's been brought up more than once. It's Gretzky, or Lemieux.
Also - those saying Lemieux has no case are out to lunch. I agree that Gretzky was "greater", and that Lemieux has a better claim when it comes to "best" (and here too - Gretzky might actually be ahead, but close) - but simply by the fact that you've all participated in hundreds of threads debating the merits of Gretzky vs Lemieux is proof that Lemieux is absolutely in consideration by many as goat, which is the question.
Coming back to Beliveau - I actually agree with the poster who brought up McDavid in thinking he has a better claim than Beliveau (probably Crosby more than McDavid, whose only 5 seasons in...). At least in that case you might say "new era, more parity/harder league" and try to make a case around that. I don't see the case for Beliveau above Gretzky whatsoever. For what it's worth Crosby neither - I just think it's probably a bit easier with Crosby/McDavid to mount an argument than Beliveau.
Orr....is tricky. He's obviously the best and greatest. But considering he only played ~9yrs - I've seen some posters try to argue "career value" of Bourque or even Lidstrom above him. So I suppose it comes down to the question being asked. If it's "who do you draft for a full career" - I've definitely seen claims for Bourque and Lidstrom, even if it is a bit of an extreme opinion.
I have Gordie Howe as the "weakest" big 4 member, but he might be the only unanimous choice here surprisingly at right wing. I'm very high on Jagr but I don't think he has a case, nor do I think even the new generation tries to ever argue him above Howe. I think the more interesting name might be Richard - since he played head to head with Howe and many considered him better back then. I don't know that I ever really run into that opinion these days though - so yes Howe only at right wing.
Left Wing - Hull or Ovechkin. Their NHL careers are very, very close. I think the WHA years still differentiate Hull - but either way it's close and many people would consider Ovechkin above Hull, which is the question, regardless if you agree.
Goalies - Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Plante are the easy ones for me. If you want to expand a bit and allow for more uncommon opinions, Tretiak is a name that definitely pops up, it helps that he didn't play in the NHL so there's question marks. Beyond that - i'm honestly not sure. Hall, Sawchuk and Dryden maybe - but I don't know that they ever really get argued for all the way at #1 - i'm tempted to leave all 3 names off. Just depends how inclusive we want to be.
Mr Burns
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LOL Lemieux can be the most gifted player ever but a better player than Gretzky? How about no...
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Mr Burns
LOL U MAD BRO? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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The funny thing is that you put the greatest goalie of all time as your starter but the best goalie ever is Price, really...
Dennis Bonvie
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Voight
#winning
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Fantomas
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JackSlater
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C - Gretzky pretty easily. Lemieux's only case is that in an idea situation he may have done what Gretzky actually did.
RW - Howe, no legitimate competition
LW - Really good debate between Ovechkin and Hull, no one else near the conversation.
D - Orr very easily. If it was split by players who played on each side then LD could see a very interesting debate between Lidstrom and Potvin, though I prefer Lidstrom.
G - Plenty of contenders. I like Hasek here but there are others outside of just Roy who could have a claim.
RW - Howe, no legitimate competition
LW - Really good debate between Ovechkin and Hull, no one else near the conversation.
D - Orr very easily. If it was split by players who played on each side then LD could see a very interesting debate between Lidstrom and Potvin, though I prefer Lidstrom.
G - Plenty of contenders. I like Hasek here but there are others outside of just Roy who could have a claim.
Professor What
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I'll give my thoughts on some of the extra centers that have popped up. Beliveau is third on my list, neck and neck with Howie Morenz. There are definitely some impressive accomplishments. He won two Hart Trophies with competition like Howe, Hull, Mikita, and Richard, and had four more runner-up finishes. He had four first-team all-star selections and six second-team nods. He was a great goal-scorer, great playmaker, and honestly, an all-around great person. I mean, the guy is so respected that Jean Chretien offered him the post of Governor General, and he was such a good person that he declined it to look after his daughter and grandchildren since his son-in-law had committed suicide. So, with Beliveau, we're dealing with a guy who's elite both as a hockey player and a person. I'd never say anything to push a man like that down, but when it comes to a comparison with Gretzky and Lemieux, it's simply not there.
Gretzky and Lemieux were on another planet in relation to their peers. That's not quite the case with Beliveau. At his position, he was tops of his era, with Mikita being the main and very worthy competition. But, unlike Gretzky and Lemieux, who I'm going to view as a unit here, it can't be said that there was never anyone who could be viewed as being ahead of him. Everyone saw that Gretzky and Lemieux were ahead of everyone else in their primes, but early on, Richard was right up there with Beliveau, and there were plenty who saw him as the GOAT up to that point. During the second half of Beliveau's career, Mikita and Hull were at a higher level, and Gordie Howe was there the whole time. As great as he was, there was never that separation.
Crosby has been mentioned in discussions a couple of times, and McDavid has even been brought up. We have a much better idea of where Crosby's going to end up than we do McDavid. In all honesty, I'm not even going to give McDavid the time of day in a discussion like this, at this point in his career, because we only have five seasons, and one of them was significantly shortened by injury. If he continues like he's been going, yeah, he's going to merit some discussion in an all-time centers discussion, but we're light years away from that right now. If you want to throw someone that's currently playing in, it's got to be Crosby right now.
There might be some people who get ticked off at this, but I don't have Crosby top-5 at this point. I think he's reached the point where some comparisons to Mikita can start being made, but I don't think he's quite caught him yet. Of course, his career isn't over yet, so we don't have a full picture, and I'll admit that, as a rule, I find it easier to evaluate players once they're done, whether that be that they're retired or that they're at the very tail end of their careers, and we pretty much know what we're dealing with. Even though I've been arguing for Ovechkin against Hull, that even applies there. Right now, I think it's close, but we don't know where Ovi's going to end up. He could very well blow Hull out of the water at the end, but we simply don't know. Add to that that competition among centers is much steeper historically, and it becomes even tougher to rank him right now. So, I guess part of it is that I don't want to get ahead of myself. But, there's another way that McDavid plays into this. I can see him having a "Mikita effect," possibly even a stronger one, on Crosby. If Mikita is part of the reason (and only part) that it becomes harder to put Beliveau in the league of Gretzky and Lemieux, what does McDavid do to Crosby? I my mind, Beliveau still ranks ahead, of Mikita, but, playing a bit of devil's advocate here, let's assume that McDavid lives up to the greatest of the hype, which is possible. Does Crosby rate higher then? I don't think so. Honestly, I think that Crosby's final ranking won't be settled completely until we have a better idea of where McDavid's career goes.
Gretzky and Lemieux were on another planet in relation to their peers. That's not quite the case with Beliveau. At his position, he was tops of his era, with Mikita being the main and very worthy competition. But, unlike Gretzky and Lemieux, who I'm going to view as a unit here, it can't be said that there was never anyone who could be viewed as being ahead of him. Everyone saw that Gretzky and Lemieux were ahead of everyone else in their primes, but early on, Richard was right up there with Beliveau, and there were plenty who saw him as the GOAT up to that point. During the second half of Beliveau's career, Mikita and Hull were at a higher level, and Gordie Howe was there the whole time. As great as he was, there was never that separation.
Crosby has been mentioned in discussions a couple of times, and McDavid has even been brought up. We have a much better idea of where Crosby's going to end up than we do McDavid. In all honesty, I'm not even going to give McDavid the time of day in a discussion like this, at this point in his career, because we only have five seasons, and one of them was significantly shortened by injury. If he continues like he's been going, yeah, he's going to merit some discussion in an all-time centers discussion, but we're light years away from that right now. If you want to throw someone that's currently playing in, it's got to be Crosby right now.
There might be some people who get ticked off at this, but I don't have Crosby top-5 at this point. I think he's reached the point where some comparisons to Mikita can start being made, but I don't think he's quite caught him yet. Of course, his career isn't over yet, so we don't have a full picture, and I'll admit that, as a rule, I find it easier to evaluate players once they're done, whether that be that they're retired or that they're at the very tail end of their careers, and we pretty much know what we're dealing with. Even though I've been arguing for Ovechkin against Hull, that even applies there. Right now, I think it's close, but we don't know where Ovi's going to end up. He could very well blow Hull out of the water at the end, but we simply don't know. Add to that that competition among centers is much steeper historically, and it becomes even tougher to rank him right now. So, I guess part of it is that I don't want to get ahead of myself. But, there's another way that McDavid plays into this. I can see him having a "Mikita effect," possibly even a stronger one, on Crosby. If Mikita is part of the reason (and only part) that it becomes harder to put Beliveau in the league of Gretzky and Lemieux, what does McDavid do to Crosby? I my mind, Beliveau still ranks ahead, of Mikita, but, playing a bit of devil's advocate here, let's assume that McDavid lives up to the greatest of the hype, which is possible. Does Crosby rate higher then? I don't think so. Honestly, I think that Crosby's final ranking won't be settled completely until we have a better idea of where McDavid's career goes.
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