How Many Players Have a Claim to Being the GOAT at Each Position?

[Professor What]

In this thread, I'm not looking for a discussion about who is the overall GOAT or even a firm answer on who is the GOAT at each position, but I'm curious as to how many players you guys think a legitimate argument could be made for. I'll kick it off with my suggestions for each position.

At center, I see two guys that the argument could be made for, those, obviously being Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux. Gretzky's argument is in playing at such a high level for as long as he did, and Lemieux's is in the pure height of his peak play.

At left wing, I also see two possibilities, and I think it all comes down to which one you think was better at one thing. Bobby Hull and Alex Ovechkin are known as two of the greatest goal scorers in history, and that's ultimately where their legacy lies. I think they were so good in that area alone to outpace the rest at their position. But, you can debate who's ahead of who among the two of them.

Right wing feels more straight forward. When they were both in the league, there was plenty of debate between Red Wings and Canadiens fans as to whether Gordie Howe or Maurice Richard was better. At the time of Richard's retirement, I think that was probably still a legitimate discussion, but considering what Howe did over the next 20 years, that debate is dead. I don't think that anyone at all can compete with Howe as the game's top right winger of all time.

The defenseman position is just as clear cut as right wing. Bobby Orr is head and shoulders above everyone else that has played the position, and he established that while his career was still ongoing, despite its shortness. Orr is probably the easiest of these to pin down.

If the last two were easy, this one is anything but. I'm not entirely sure that I can come up with a full list of goalies that are candidates here, but I'm going to try, and feel free to chime in if there's someone you believe was left off. I'm also not going to make individual cases here, since it would get too long. Rather, I'll just give a list of players here. Here we go: Clint Benedict, Martin Brodeur, Ken Dryden, Glenn Hall, Dominik Hasek, Jacques Plante, Patrick Roy, Terry Sawchuk, and Georges Vezina could all see arguments. I have a feeling there's never going to be any real consensus here. There are just too many options. What do you guys think?

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[Doctor No]

For goaltenders, I've seen cases made for Tretiak.

 

[BenchBrawl]

This would be my all-time lineup:

Hull-Gretzky-Howe
Orr
Roy

The best cases would be Béliveau over Gretzky based on an all-around game argument, and Plante over Roy. Some (not me) would also prefer Hasek to Roy. Maybe Sawchuk and Hall could get in there too.

I don't see any case for Ovechkin over Hull really. Hull was better for longer and Ovechkin didn't do anything Hull didn't do himself. What is the case?

Howe and Orr are untouchable.

Overall goaltending is much more open than any other position at the top.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

C - 1, no one has a claim against Gretzky
RW - 1, ditto for Howe
D - 1, ditto for Orr
LW - 2, Hull and Ovechkin
G - 2, Hasek and Roy

 

[VanIslander]

Serious candidates:

Gretzky or Lemieux.
Roy or Hasek.
Orr or GTFO!
Hull or Ovechkin.
Howe (or... Richard, Jagr, Lafleur...)

Understandably there are arguments for Kharlamov, Makarov and Tretiak at their positions. (The only one I could personally ever buy is maybe Kharlamov at LW.)

 

[Doctor No]

Some may be conflating this thread with the "Your All Time NHL Team" thread - necessarily, this thread should have a broader set of results.

 

[Professor What]

I don't see any case for Ovechkin over Hull really. Hull was better for longer and Ovechkin didn't do anything Hull didn't do himself. What is the case?

As I said, it's all in which one you view as a better goal scorer, since that's ultimately what both of their games are/were built around. I did something similar to Hockey Reference's adjusted points to compare them. The one thing I didn't do was adjust for roster sizes. I don't like the assumption if makes that all players would pull equal playing time, and I don't think that the difference in roster size ends up making that much difference for most of the league's history, and ultimately, it would have hurt Hull's numbers, which isn't something I want to do considering the question. So, these numbers assume that an average team scores three goals per game and that all seasons are 80 games long. If a player missed games, it assumes that they missed the same proportion of the real life season. That's far from perfect, but we're talking about seasons ranging from 70-82 games -- with the exception of 2012-13 and 2019-20, which was 69 games for the Caps -- so I don't think that range will hurt things too much. I also used Gabriel Desjardins' league equivalencies to get an estimate for Hull's WHA years. This is what we get:

Bobby Hull
1957-58: 16
1958-59: 21
1959-60: 45
1960-61: 35
1961-62: 57
1962-63: 36
1963-64: 53
1964-65: 46
1965-66: 52
1966-67: 52
1967-68: 51
1968-69: 61
1969-70: 41
1970-71: 43
1971-72: 50
1972-73: 22
1973-74: 31
1974-75: 48
1975-76: 41
1976-77: 10
1977-78: 27
1978-79: 2
1979-80: 23
Total: 863

Alex Ovechkin
2005-06: 49
2006-07: 45
2007-08: 68
2008-09: 56
2009-10: 51
2010-11: 34
2011-12: 41
2012-13: 59
2013-14: 54
2014-15: 57
2015-16: 54
2016-17: 35
2017-18: 48
2018-19: 50
2019-20: 55
Total: 756

In this scenario, we see Hull about 100 goals ahead of Ovechkin, but, he retired at 41, and Ovechkin is just 34. Assuming Ovechkin plays seven more years, I see no way he doesn't far more than make up that gap, not to mention that had Ovi not lost what should have been his rookie year of 2004-05 (for which I don't know of any good method of approximation), that gap would be significantly smaller now. Next, in bold, we see seasons in which they led the NHL in goals. Even with adjustments, that simply is what it is. Hull had seven, and Ovechkin has nine. I didn't include Hull's WHA-leading 1974-75 season, ecause the formula doesn't have him coming anywhere near Esposito's 61 goals, and I don't think that would have translated to an NHL-leading output based on the gap between the leagues simply based on gut instinct. But, if you want to include it, Ovie still has more season-leading tallies. Now, formulas like this are far from perfect, but they're the closest we can come to an apples-to-apples statistical comparison. There's more than one way to do it, but I did it in the way that I personally think is best. So, this is subjective, but it also allows us to compare the caliber of individual seasons to a degree. We see Hull with an impressive tally of one 60-goal season and six more 50-goal seasons using this method. Ovechkin not only matches the 60-goal season, but his best season is seven goals better, and he adds an additional nine 50-goal seasons. That's why I believe that Ovie has a very strong case as the game's top left winger.

 

[Boxscore]

CENTER
Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux

RIGHT WING
Gordie Howe
Maurice Richard
Jaromir Jagr

LEFT WING
Alexander Ovechkin
Bobby Hull
Valeri Kharlamov

DEFENSE
Bobby Orr

GOALTENDER
Patrick Roy
Dominik Hasek
Jacques Plante
Terry Sawchuk
Martin Brodeur

 

[Professor What]

RIGHT WING
Gordie Howe
Maurice Richard
Jaromir Jagr

I'm curious about the case you'd make for Richard and Jagr. Personally, I don't see their peak levels comparing to Howe's, and even Jagr can't match his longevity.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm gonna go down the VanIslander selective methodology here for a wink...

Why does Terry Sawchuk have a claim here? Again, we're talking about a claim for greatest ever...I see the five-year peak and some scattered goodness thereafter...

I was part of the last top-100 and a part of the top-40 goalie project, so this is really just the dead are new-born awakening...but that grip on GOAT, if it ever existed, couldn't have been from more than, say, 1955 to 1961, right? And the erosion that comes with the 90's big 3 and, perhaps weakly, Tretiak, surely severs fingertips from the ledge, no...?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

LW: Hull or Ovechkin
C: Gretzky or Lemieux
RW: Howe
D: Orr
G: Roy, Hasek, Plante, Sawchuk, Hall, Brodeur, Tretiak. Goalies are weird like that.

Just because I listed a player who has a case, doesn't mean I think that case is good. I think the cases for Ovechkin, Lemieux, Brodeur, and Tretiak in particular are poor, but it isn't totally crazy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm gonna go down the VanIslander selective methodology here for a wink...

Why does Terry Sawchuk have a claim here? Again, we're talking about a claim for greatest ever...I see the five-year peak and some scattered goodness thereafter...

I was part of the last top-100 and a part of the top-40 goalie project, so this is really just the dead are new-born awakening...but that grip on GOAT, if it ever existed, couldn't have been from more than, say, 1955 to 1961, right? And the erosion that comes with the 90's big 3 and, perhaps weakly, Tretiak, surely severs fingertips from the ledge, no...?

The case for Sawchuk:

1) Combining regular season and playoffs, he probably has the best peak/short prime ever.
2) The collective eye test / historical memories. By the 1980s/early 1990s, it was "common knowledge" that Sawchuk was the best goalie ever and the guy Roy was trying to pass. Some of it is based on the wins and shutouts records of course, but not all of it. There were people who had seen Sawchuk play who sang his praises, both in the hockey establishment (see the 1998 THN top 100) and on internet forums.

 

[Boxscore]

I'm curious about the case you'd make for Richard and Jagr. Personally, I don't see their peak levels comparing to Howe's, and even Jagr can't match his longevity.

Don't get me wrong--Gordie is my clear #1--but if someone were to choose Rocket or Jagr, I wouldn't destroy them. I mean, if you're a Habs lifer, I could see how you would consider Maurice Richard the greatest RW to ever play. And, if you're more of a "modern fan" I could see a semi-case made for Jagr--at least it's not out of the hemisphere. But, like I said, it's Gordie in my book for sure. I was trying to list guys that are at least "entertainable."

 

[Professor What]

I'm gonna go down the VanIslander selective methodology here for a wink...

Why does Terry Sawchuk have a claim here? Again, we're talking about a claim for greatest ever...I see the five-year peak and some scattered goodness thereafter...

I was part of the last top-100 and a part of the top-40 goalie project, so this is really just the dead are new-born awakening...but that grip on GOAT, if it ever existed, couldn't have been from more than, say, 1955 to 1961, right? And the erosion that comes with the 90's big 3 and, perhaps weakly, Tretiak, surely severs fingertips from the ledge, no...?

There are a few guys ahead of Sawchuk for me, but I see the argument because I see the argument for Plante, and that they, as contemporaries have relatively similar career lines, not to mention that I don't think those Red Wings teams of the 50s would have been quite as good without a guy like Sawchuk in net.

Sadly, I see ultimately see Sawchuk as very sad what if. I can't help but wonder what he would have been had he not dealt with debilitating mental illness. That's a heavy load to carry through life, and it bleeds into everything. I think that it really makes what he did do all the more impressive.

As for Tretiak, honestly, I never quite know what to do with him. Anything I can say about his greatness (and he was great) compared to others always has to start out with "I think." The hockey world was robbed in not getting to see him play in the NHL and to see him show what he could do against the world's best league. I guess he could be thrown in, but the whole "I think" thing bothers me, even if it wasn't his fault.

 

[VanIslander]

There are 8 (at most 14).

Yet, seriously, are Orr & Howe ever REASONABLY questioned as the best at their position?

Howe was friggin top-5 in NHL scoring for 20 consecutive years. Plus coach Bowman says he is the best player ever in his opinion.

Orr was elite at skating, stickhandling and scoring (though injury prone - wasn't over 6 ft, nor over 200 lbs, nor had more than 6 elite seasons).

 

[Boxscore]

The case for Sawchuk:

1) Combining regular season and playoffs, he probably has the best peak/short prime ever.
2) The collective eye test / historical memories. By the 1980s/early 1990s, it was "common knowledge" that Sawchuk was the best goalie ever and the guy Roy was trying to pass. Some of it is based on the wins and shutouts records of course, but not all of it. There were people who had seen Sawchuk play who sang his praises, both in the hockey establishment (see the 1998 THN top 100) and on internet forums.

This is where my head was as well. There are oldtimers who insist Sawchuk or Plante were the greatest ever. Goalies are difficult--the whole pre-mask vs. post-mask dynamic... workhorse vs. diva, etc. For this exercise, I truly think the goaltender position is the toughest--and has the most possible choices.

 

[Professor What]

Don't get me wrong--Gordie is my clear #1--but if someone were to choose Rocket or Jagr, I wouldn't destroy them. I mean, if you're a Habs lifer, I could see how you would consider Maurice Richard the greatest RW to ever play. And, if you're more of a "modern fan" I could see a semi-case made for Jagr--at least it's not out of the hemisphere. But, like I said, it's Gordie in my book for sure. I was trying to list guys that are at least "entertainable."

I see where you're going there. This is my take on the three of them. I see Howe as the clear number one, but I see this trio as the clear top three. I'd find it rather hard to swallow if someone tried to put anyone else in front of any of the three of them at that position.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The case for Sawchuk:

1) Combining regular season and playoffs, he probably has the best peak/short prime ever.
2) The collective eye test / historical memories. By the 1980s/early 1990s, it was "common knowledge" that Sawchuk was the best goalie ever and the guy Roy was trying to pass. Some of it is based on the wins and shutouts records of course, but not all of it. There were people who had seen Sawchuk play who sang his praises, both in the hockey establishment (see the 1998 THN top 100) and on internet forums.

Thanks, I figured it was that combination. I just don't get how it wouldn't have been Plante...to the point that, "how was it possibly Sawchuk?" - I have seen them both play more than a few times, I'll take Plante...and then accolades back it...

Is it as frustrating as this: Sawchuk:Hasek :: Plante:Brodeur

All-time peaks and different styles vs the field against the guys that brought it smartly and consistently all the livelong day...?

 

[Professor What]

You know something else that gets me about comparing goalies? I don't know any way to make adjustments to get what feels in any way like an apples to apples statistical comparison across eras. I can do that for forwards rather easily, and it's not too much of a jump of imagination to do the same when including defensemen. But, when you consider that even as late as the early careers of guys like Plante and Sawchuk, we don't even have a save percentage to look at. To me, it's far more important than goals against average. The goalie discussion would be hard enough if we did have a full historical set of statistics, but that omission makes it exponentially more so in my book.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

hmm, i can see a plausible argument (read: non-time machine or darwin arguments) for...

center: 1
RW: 1
LW: 3
D: 1
G: 7

giving a lot of latitude to the soviet player argument here, though

 

[Michael Farkas]

You know something else that gets me about comparing goalies? I don't know any way to make adjustments to get what feels in any way like an apples to apples statistical comparison across eras. I can do that for forwards rather easily, and it's not too much of a jump of imagination to do the same when including defensemen. But, when you consider that even as late as the early careers of guys like Plante and Sawchuk, we don't even have a save percentage to look at. To me, it's far more important than goals against average. The goalie discussion would be hard enough if we did have a full historical set of statistics, but that omission makes it exponentially more so in my book.

You're new here, but you give off the aura that you're smart enough not be restricted by the limitations of save pct.

It's a tool, but it comes with a lot of flaws...even when dressed up.

The key is the evolution of the position and proper talent evaluation.

 

[Professor What]

You're new here, but you give off the aura that you're smart enough not be restricted by the limitations of save pct.

It's a tool, but it comes with a lot of flaws...even when dressed up.

The key is the evolution of the position and proper talent evaluation.

I agree that it's not a perfect metric, and I can't tell you how many times I've told others in debates that statistics can't be taken at face value without perspective, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't like them and find them useful. The reason I'd like to have it for the earlier years and find a way to make historical adaptations is that I am a very numbers-oriented person, and even if it's far from the be all, end all of an evaluation, I do find having some method of trying to compare them across eras very useful.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I find save pct. to be probably the most overrated stat because of how view goalie stats are publicly available and how quickly the others are dismissed. You have wins and GAA which people find to be just purely team stats, and then you have shutouts, which people usually ignore unless it serves their purpose, right? So that leaves you with door #3. But "default" is not how I like to try to win...

That said, it's not like it's worthless or it's, ya know, a reverse correlation with skill or anything...let me try to find the thought exercise that seventieslord and I did not too long ago...there was a fair amount of common ground...but it was far from 1:1...

Found it, it's a lot less clean than I remember...but me and a former pro goalie sat down and sorted out where we think goalies land in terms of talent...

Seventieslord's thought exercise on goalie talent

I'd move Price up to tier 1 now. That's the only obvious change I'd make in the parts that matter...the thread is kind of a train wreck, as I'm wordier (somehow) and petulant...others are varying shades of rubbernecking and belligerent haha...

Somewhere in the reach creamy center of that thread, seventies compares my list to where they land on the save pct. map...no obligation, as it's mostly me grandstanding against a goalie that I hate and a stat that he jammed down his pants in the process...every 14th post in there is probably worth half a damn haha

 

[quoipourquoi]

I think the reason that the question as it pertains to goaltenders is seemingly more wide-open is that it’s the position that had the answer change most recently (the effect of the Wins record falling twice in the 2000s really can’t be understated).

I would expect within 20 years, the general thought will be that Martin Brodeur was the greatest goaltender of all-time. I think the updated THN list is the only one where he has not placed #1 or #2. The 2020 NHL.com list had him 1st on 11 of 14 ballots.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

99 or Beliveau
Howe
Hull or Ovi
Orr
Roy or Hasek