How Many Players Have a Claim to Being the GOAT at Each Position?

[quoipourquoi]

Roy I think would have problems because of his size/quickness/lack of flexibility combo

How small do you think Patrick Roy is? Are you confusing him for Roy Worters?

 

[tinyzombies]

How small do you think Patrick Roy is? Are you confusing him for Roy Worters?

He's only 6'0", which when combined with his lack of flexibility and limited athleticism (by comparison) would put him on a lower level in today's game than he was considered then. He might be on a Lundqvist level though, which I conceded. Hard to say. I think Lundqvist at his best was probably more talented. Roy's game changed so much during his career tho - from an old school butterfly flopper, to a quiet, deep in the net high shoulders butterfly. I think they are about the same level though. Career-wise, of course, it's Roy, but that's not what I'm talking about. Versus his own peers he's probably the same to Hasek as Lundqvist is to Price. I think Lundqvist is probably closer to Price though, the gaps between peers aren't what they were back then.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This is not the argument I was making and the question wasn't defined this narrowly. But if you let him keep his technique I don't see why he'd need all that equipment. He'd just have to watch out for Hull... the rest of them would be a picnic for him. It's a picnic for him now if he sees the puck and there are a few Hulls on the ice at any given time with minimal windups. In your hypothetical I assume he grew up with no mask, so I don't see the problem. Would be far easier for him to adjust than for Glenn Hall to step in net today.

Also, you are slipping out from under the real argument. Price is THE GOAT and it's not even close. Hasek would be great today, but he would have to change his style as he did when he got older because he would be letting in uneccesary goals- but his flexibility would allow him to remain dominant. Roy I think would have problems because of his size/quickness/lack of flexibility combo, but Lundqvist played deep effectively. I just don't see him, even if you upgrade him, being at the level of Price in today's Super NHL.

As for Gretzky, I think he'd be an excellent offensive player. Put him in McDavid's shoes and his role wouldn't change much- he wouldn't have to play defense. He would definitely need Draisitl on his line though, whereas McDavid doesn't need him. Would Edmonton win more games? I doubt it.

If he grew up in those times, then his technique did not exist.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He's only 6'0", which when combined with his lack of flexibility and limited athleticism (by comparison) would put him on a lower level in today's game than he was considered then. He might be on a Lundqvist level though, which I conceded. Hard to say. I think Lundqvist at his best was probably more talented. Roy's game changed so much during his career tho - from an old school butterfly flopper, to a quiet, deep in the net high shoulders butterfly. I think they are about the same level though. Career-wise, of course, it's Roy, but that's not what I'm talking about. Versus his own peers he's probably the same to Hasek as Lundqvist is to Price. I think Lundqvist is probably closer to Price though, the gaps between peers aren't what they were back then.

Patrick Roy
Hockey Hall of Fame, 2006
Roy with the Colorado Avalanche in 1999
Born	October 5, 1965 (age 54) Quebec City, Quebec, Canada
Height	6 ft 2 in (188 cm)
Weight	190 lb (86 kg; 13 st 8 lb)
Position	Goaltender
Caught	Left
Played for	Montreal Canadiens Colorado Avalanche
National team	Canada
NHL Draft	51st overall, 1984 Montreal Canadiens
Playing career	1984–2003

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

we’re talking about three cms

Carey Price
Price in 2015
Born	August 16, 1987 (age 33) Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada[1]
Height	6 ft 3 in (191 cm)
Weight	215 lb (98 kg; 15 st 5 lb)
Position	Goaltender
Catches	Left
NHL team	Montreal Canadiens
National team	Canada
NHL Draft	5th overall, 2005 Montreal Canadiens
Playing career	2007–present

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[MadLuke]

Even Roy said that in his day a .907 or a .908 meant you were a good goalie. Now we all know the standard is .920 AND the obstacles have evolved drastically.

And we know Roy could do those .920+ season (he did it is last 2 season when he was getting out of is prime) and Roy was not less talented when he was winning Jennings/Vezina with .891-.900-.908 save Percentage than at 37 year's old when he had a .920 save percentage, equipment & goaltender technique evolved, team defense changed.

 

[quoipourquoi]

And we know Roy could do those .920+ season (he did it is last 2 season when he was getting out of is prime) and Roy was not less talented when he was winning Jennings/Vezina with .891-.900-.908 save Percentage than at 37 year's old when he had a .920 save percentage, equipment & goaltender technique evolved, team defense changed.

Right? In his final three seasons, Roy’s even strength save percentage was a .931. In the last three seasons as the league average save percentages have fallen back to their pre-2010 heights, the leader in even strength save percentage (Khudobin) also has a .931.

Did techniques get worse from the mid-2010s to today, or can we acknowledge that goaltending does not take place in a vacuum?

Using the “standard” for save percentage as an argument for the best goaltender having to exist right now would ignore that even higher save percentages occurred 45-65 years ago.

 

[tinyzombies]

Patrick Roy

Goalie
Born Oct 5 1965 -- Quebec, PQ
[54 yrs. ago]
Height 6.00 -- Weight 165 [183 cm/75 kg]
Patrick Roy (b.1965) Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

He played for the Avalanche, they were loaded.

I have no idea why I'm seeing 6-1 and 6-2, he was six foot I always thought, but this pic with Brodeur proves that wrong I guesss. That 165 was from the beginning of his career.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Right? In his final three seasons, Roy’s even strength save percentage was a .931. In the last three seasons as the league average save percentages have fallen back to their pre-2010 heights, the leader in even strength save percentage (Khudobin) also has a .931.

Did techniques get worse from the mid-2010s to today, or can we acknowledge that goaltending does not take place in a vacuum?

Using the “standard” for save percentage as an argument for the best goaltender having to exist right now would ignore that even higher save percentages occurred 45-65 years ago.

Didn't goalies in the late 1920s post save percentages north of .950?

 

[tinyzombies]

Price: .934, .933, .927, .923,.923, .920, .918, .916

Roy: .925, .923, .920, .918, .917, .916, .914, .914

And Roy played on far superior teams. I don't think it's a reliable measure, but it certainly doesn't look good for Roy at first glance.

For me, this is the only real competition, even though Roy is probably the best playoff performer ever because of those two big runs. The other one, he was on the Avs, so...

Hasek: .937, .932, .930, .930, .930, .925, .921, .920

 

[Phenomenaut]

Price: .934, .933, .927, .923,.923, .920, .918, .916

Roy: .925, .923, .920, .918, .917, .916, .914, .914

And Roy played on far superior teams. I don't think it's a reliable measure, but it certainly doesn't look good for Roy at first glance.

For me, this is the only real competition, even though Roy is probably the best playoff performer ever because of those two big runs. The other one, he was on the Avs, so...

Hasek: .937, .932, .930, .930, .930, .925, .921, .920

You have to compare vs league average. Relative level of dominance is what's important here. Carey Price's best year he was +18(.933 vs .915 league average SV%). That was his "I play in Montreal so I get the Hart even though other goalies with similar years won't sniff it" year. Hasek has 7 seasons where he was more dominant vs the league average than that, and his Hart finishes of 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 7, 8 vs Price's 1, 7 demonstrate that.

Same with Roy. He did it from 88-92, and again in 97. His Hart record of 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8 backs that up.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He's only 6'0", which when combined with his lack of flexibility and limited athleticism (by comparison) would put him on a lower level in today's game than he was considered then. He might be on a Lundqvist level though, which I conceded. Hard to say. I think Lundqvist at his best was probably more talented. Roy's game changed so much during his career tho - from an old school butterfly flopper, to a quiet, deep in the net high shoulders butterfly. I think they are about the same level though. Career-wise, of course, it's Roy, but that's not what I'm talking about. Versus his own peers he's probably the same to Hasek as Lundqvist is to Price. I think Lundqvist is probably closer to Price though, the gaps between peers aren't what they were back then.

Did you ever see Roy play?

 

[Boxscore]

Did you ever see Roy play?

Not to mention how small his equipment was early on...

 

[tinyzombies]

You have to compare vs league average. Relative level of dominance is what's important here. Carey Price's best year he was +18(.933 vs .915 league average SV%). That was his "I play in Montreal so I get the Hart even though other goalies with similar years won't sniff it" year. Hasek has 7 seasons where he was more dominant vs the league average than that, and his Hart finishes of 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 7, 8 vs Price's 1, 7 demonstrate that.

Same with Roy. He did it from 88-92, and again in 97. His Hart record of 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8 backs that up.

That just shows dominance against era, there is less of a gap between the goalies now as the position has evolved and there is more parity in the league - everyone is playing the same systems. I think Price's underlying numbers in this recent era of spiked offense show he has maintained an elite level (see article I posted). Price has never been handed a trophy on hype, he is the real deal. In fact playing in Montreal has hurt his legacy. He's won the Pearson Trophy a few times and has won many of those player polls as best goalie. Like Hasek he was considered the best PLAYER in the league for 2-3 years in the gap when Crosby was hurt and before McDavid hit the scene. I don't think Roy was ever the best PLAYER in the league.

I'm from Montreal and have been going to hockey games since February 1978. I've seen lots of Patrick Roy and lots of Carey Price, and I've seen Hasek play on several occasions as well. I lived in California too and saw Roy with the Avs and Hasek with the Wings, so I saw them evolve.

The three best arguments for each other than eye test?:

Price: (1) best goalie in toughest era on avg or weak teams (other than 1-2 years); (2) evolved technique (first G to master lateral butterfly?); first big man who could move as fast as he could and do the splits both ways along with lateral bfly, which was quickly copied by many other goalies.

Roy: came up big on two (good) teams that weren't supposed to win (but also ducked Edm and Pitt); came up big another time on a powerhouse team. (2) consistent numbers playing for defensive teams or powerhouse teams. Probably the best two clutch playoff performances of all-time, definitely 1993... hard to top 10 straight playoff OT wins and a Cup.

Hasek: best goalie ever vs his own era while playing for an avg trapping team, then deservedly padded resume on a powerhouse; the Olympics (tho Canada couldn't get any second chances to save their lives becuase they drafted an old team that couldn't skate and play on the big rink)

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i would have thought the great doctor johnson would be a more skilled wordsmith and have something more profound to add to a debate than drive by acroynms and emojis

 

[quoipourquoi]

Price has never been handed a trophy on hype, he is the real deal.

I agree. Carey Price deserved every trophy he won throughout his NHL career, which he earned in the many years of... just 2015.

The threshold for winning the Hart/Lindsay in 2014-15 was being better than Alex Ovechkin’s 6th best season. It was the Jamie Benn Art Ross year; there wasn’t a particularly high level of competition.

If Price was completing against, let’s say... 199-point Mario Lemieux, we might not say that Price was the best player in the world. If he had the same season against 2014 Crosby, 2016 Kane, 2017 McDavid, 2019 Kucherov, or 2020 Draisaitl, he might not necessarily have won a Hart.

It’s completely deserved recognition, but not all trophy races are equal. Roy’s best shot at a Hart came not when he was at his best, but rather when he was 36-years-old - because that was when he had a good season that lined up with flawed candidates from the forward position.

Patrick Roy may not have had the best season of any player in 1992, but it was probably a better season than any of Price’s competition had in 2015 - no disrespect intended to John Tavares and company.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I agree. Carey Price deserved every trophy he won throughout his NHL career, which he earned in the many years of... just 2015.

The threshold for winning the Hart/Lindsay in 2014-15 was being better than Alex Ovechkin’s 6th best season. It was the Jamie Benn Art Ross year; there wasn’t a particularly high level of competition.

If Price was completing against, let’s say... 199-point Mario Lemieux, we might not say that Price was the best player in the world. If he had the same season against 2014 Crosby, 2016 Kane, 2017 McDavid, 2019 Kucherov, or 2020 Draisaitl, he might not necessarily have won a Hart.

It’s completely deserved recognition, but not all trophy races are equal. Roy’s best shot at a Hart came not when he was at his best, but rather when he was 36-years-old - because that was when he had a good season that lined up with flawed candidates from the forward position.

Patrick Roy may not have had the best season of any player in 1992, but it was probably a better season than any of Price’s competition had in 2015 - no disrespect intended to John Tavares and company.

i'd add roy's 1989. an MVP season of a very high calibre: the best player on the second best team (behind the leader by a single win), most important defensive player on the #1 defensive team in the league, statistically lapped the field in GAA and SV%.

but he just happened to go against gretzky in year one of LA (23 point jump in the standings, from fourth last to fourth), mario scoring 199, and yzerman scoring 155. so he got just two third place votes. but 1 through 4 it was almost certainly the most competitive MVP race of all time.

 

[MadLuke]

Price: .934, .933, .927, .923,.923, .920, .918, .916

Roy: .925, .923, .920, .918, .917, .916, .914, .914

And Roy played on far superior teams. I don't think it's a reliable measure, but it certainly doesn't look good for Roy at first glance.

The fact that all .92x season for Roy are in the second half of is career should be telling you something about looking it like that.

Do you believe Patrick Roy became more talented has he got older ?

 

[bobholly39]

I agree. Carey Price deserved every trophy he won throughout his NHL career, which he earned in the many years of... just 2015.

The threshold for winning the Hart/Lindsay in 2014-15 was being better than Alex Ovechkin’s 6th best season. It was the Jamie Benn Art Ross year; there wasn’t a particularly high level of competition.

If Price was completing against, let’s say... 199-point Mario Lemieux, we might not say that Price was the best player in the world. If he had the same season against 2014 Crosby, 2016 Kane, 2017 McDavid, 2019 Kucherov, or 2020 Draisaitl, he might not necessarily have won a Hart.

It’s completely deserved recognition, but not all trophy races are equal. Roy’s best shot at a Hart came not when he was at his best, but rather when he was 36-years-old - because that was when he had a good season that lined up with flawed candidates from the forward position.

Patrick Roy may not have had the best season of any player in 1992, but it was probably a better season than any of Price’s competition had in 2015 - no disrespect intended to John Tavares and company.

Do you think Patrick Roy has a better regular season than Price in 2015? I personally don't - but I'd be curious to hear opinions.

To the larger point - like I said earlier in the thread, I could probably come around to the idea that goalies have evolved more technically than other skaters, and so it makes sense that in an absolute-talent sense - talent-wise, goalies of today are more talented. If Price had the best peak season post cap-era and can therefore be said to be the best of era - you might argue that in an absolute sense he's the best. It's a bit of a stretch maybe - but one that may be somewhat plausible.

The whole "goat" talk is meaningless. Carey Price doesn't have the career accolades to go anywhere near the likes of Roy/Hasek/Brodeur - he doesn't even have the accolades to necessarily be #1 post cap-era. Goat is more about accolades and accomplishments than talent, and Carey Price is lacking in that regards.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Do you think Patrick Roy has a better regular season than Price in 2015? I personally don't - but I'd be curious to hear opinions.

To the larger point - like I said earlier in the thread, I could probably come around to the idea that goalies have evolved more technically than other skaters, and so it makes sense that in an absolute-talent sense - talent-wise, goalies of today are more talented. If Price had the best peak season post cap-era and can therefore be said to be the best of era - you might argue that in an absolute sense he's the best. It's a bit of a stretch maybe - but one that may be somewhat plausible.

The whole "goat" talk is meaningless. Carey Price doesn't have the career accolades to go anywhere near the likes of Roy/Hasek/Brodeur - he doesn't even have the accolades to necessarily be #1 post cap-era. Goat is more about accolades and accomplishments than talent, and Carey Price is lacking in that regards.

Goalie equipment has evolved more than goalie technique.

 

[bobholly39]

Goalie equipment has evolved more than goalie technique.

That's true. But it doesn't mean that goalie technique hasn't also evolved.

 

[tinyzombies]

Goat is more about accolades and accomplishments than talent, and Carey Price is lacking in that regards.

Depends on how you pose the question, the question wasn't defined so I went with the literal GOAT not the career GOAT. If Price was on all those stacked Avs teams maybe he wins more than 2 Cups? I have a feeling that would be the case if Hasek was swapped in with the avs.

Roy doesn't get kudos for being on the best defensive team in the league- actually it's the reverse, his job was far easier. I would like to see an analysis of all the teams these goalies faced in the playoffs. That 93 run was amazing, but a very young Nords team, a one dimensional Sabres team, the Islanders..., and a surprise Kings team... that's a pretty easy Cup run.

86: (Habs 7th): Bruins (9), Whalers (11), Rangers (14), Flames (6)
93 (Habs 6th): Nords (4), Sabres (15), Islanders (13), Kings (11).

 

[quoipourquoi]

Goalie equipment has evolved more than goalie technique.

I think part of the problem is how much it goes hand in hand. As the technique changes, the equipment tries to catch up to benefit the user of that technique. As the equipment changes and ranges of movement or efficiency of other movements are benefited, the technique evolves to exploit it.

Where it becomes an issue is if someone employs a technique not advantaged by the equipment of the time. Sawchuk playing low to the ice without a mask is probably the most classic example of a player who could play the exact same way and would be better just for having better gear.

Would Roy - playing his 2003 style - have benefited from 2010-2020 pads with better landing gear and pads that more firmly seal the 5-hole?

Roy doesn't get kudos for being on the best defensive team in the league- actually it's the reverse, his job was far easier. I would like to see an analysis of all the teams these goalies faced in the playoffs. That 93 run was amazing, but a very young Nords team, a one dimensional Sabres team, the Islanders..., and a surprise Kings team... that's a pretty easy Cup run.

That analysis of opposition-based performance has been done for goaltenders who had advanced to the 3rd and 4th rounds from 1968-2017 (I would have liked to have done every 1st and 2nd round goaltender too, but it would have quadrupled the amount of work - and for less useful small sample size performances).

It has also been done on a team level to see which champions since expansion offered the lowest goal support vs. expectation, as well as which placed the highest threshold on their goaltenders when factoring in both goal support and shots allowed. It’s in the Historical Goalie Data thread; I’ll get you a link.

Historical goalie data

 

[Boxscore]

That's true. But it doesn't mean that goalie technique hasn't also evolved.

I think technique has evolved slightly. Goalies today mostly prepare for three scenarios:

1. Deflections and redirects from point shots
2. Being "square" to the shooter and relying on them not having "time" to pick you apart
3. Defending the shootout dangles

Generally speaking, today's players are not nearly as great at picking corners or beating goalies with impeccably-placed shots. The Lemieux's, Bossy's and Lafleur's are gone--the kids today like to make 40 moves before they score. Goalies rely on their bigger equipment and ability to "take away net" and are far less acrobatic.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Price: .934, .933, .927, .923,.923, .920, .918, .916

Roy: .925, .923, .920, .918, .917, .916, .914, .914

And Roy played on far superior teams. I don't think it's a reliable measure, but it certainly doesn't look good for Roy at first glance.

For me, this is the only real competition, even though Roy is probably the best playoff performer ever because of those two big runs. The other one, he was on the Avs, so...

Hasek: .937, .932, .930, .930, .930, .925, .921, .920

Now compare something that actually adds context value to the stat, like goals saved above average.

Roy: 47.15, 46.99, 35.09, 34.31, 28.27, 27.24, 24.97, 20.07, 18.11, 17.54, 16.77, 15.80
Price: 36.70, 23.51, 22.04, 17.25, 14.94, 13.46, 5.49, 1.38, -1.31, -4.55, -7.37, -17.49

Price is not that good, he's an above average goalie living off of 1 outlier season and Habs hype.

 

[MadLuke]

Depends on how you pose the question, the question wasn't defined so I went with the literal GOAT not the career GOAT. If Price was on all those stacked Avs teams maybe he wins more than 2 Cups? I have a feeling that would be the case if Hasek was swapped in with the avs.

I am not sure you are making as much of an opposition that you think, it all depends how you define greatness.

literal BOAT would not require to ever having played in the NHL or any good league in your life, the best goaltender of all time maybe decided to play football instead and nobody know is name.

Greatness almost in itself is about exploit, fame, result, career, the debate between who was the best between Dionne and Lafleur can be made but there is no debate about who ended up being the greatest imo.

Roy doesn't get kudos for being on the best defensive team in the league- actually it's the reverse, his job was far easier. I would like to see an analysis of all the teams these goalies faced in the playoffs. That 93 run was amazing, but a very young Nords team, a one dimensional Sabres team, the Islanders..., and a surprise Kings team... that's a pretty easy Cup run.

Take 1991-1992, the Canadians have a giant separation has the best defensive team in the league:
1991-92 NHL Summary | Hockey-Reference.com

207 goals against vs 236-244-246 for the closest competition

When Patrick Roy is in net, they had a 2.36 GAA, that a pace for by far the best defense in the league (189 goals against by 80 games) when Roy was not in net it goes to a still good but a more standard 2.91 GAA, no better than what the Jets did (and Stephane Beauregard on that team), some of those years Roy has little credit for being on the best defensive team, even it's the reverse, some year's the Canadian was the best defensive team because Roy was in net (1989 for example, arguably 92).