How Many Players Have a Claim to Being the GOAT at Each Position?

[Fantomas]

Welcome to the truth.

My man, you posted cringe.

 

[Mr Burns]

ehats lazy is not looking at the absolute garbage that goalies back then let in. It’s there for anyone to see. There’s many goalies today who have surpassed Roy. Many.

I understand the pain this causes, but this pain was allowed in by how the question was formulated.

LOL how about no...

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

LOL how about no...

Why do your posts always begin with LOL? Varied opinion are welcome here. There is no one right answer.

 

[Professor What]

The "players today would be the best ever, because players today are better than ever" argument is lazy as shit.

It's a waste of everyone's time and it pollutes the very nature of the History subforum, where all posters ostensibly respect the rich tapestry of the game and the players who played it.

And here's what people completely ignore when they do that. First, people have gotten bigger over time because nutrition and health have improved. If we look at Howie Morenz as he was and stick him in today's game, we'd say, that guy's too small to do anything. But, the fact is, he was born over 100 years ago. He was actually bigger than average in his time. Thus, genetically speaking, we'd expect a bigger version of Morenz if he were born into today's times, probably standing at least 6'0", not 5'9", based on various things I just read online. Secondly, when people talk about how the techniques of players back then wouldn't cut it now, they ignore the fact that if those players played today, they would have grown up with modern training regimens and would have learned modern techniques. It completely ignores the fact that the reason today's players are what they are is that they're a product of their times. Do you want to put Connor McDavid back in 1920? Okay, then you'd have to understand that he would have been smaller because of the time he grew up in and he would have played with the same "antiquated" styles and techniques they did back then. Would he have excelled? I have no doubt that he would, because he's a fine hockey player. And that's the point. Players who are fine hockey players are fine hockey players. Anyone who thinks that it's only because they played in a certain era ignores all of the important facts.

 

[quoipourquoi]

What's lazy is not looking at the absolute garbage that goalies back then let in.

...

Even if you upgrade Roy to Price's standard technically, he's still smaller and slower. Is he any better than Halak? I'm not sure, but that's around where I would place Roy's ACTUAL value.

“Back then” in the calendar year 2003 when Halak was drafted, Roy had a .930 across 36 games. Just figured I’d throw that out there since you seem to have lost track of his career in the 1980s. He’s also 3 inches taller than Halak - and Khudobin, who was this year’s save percentage leader - since that seems to be a thing for you.

Did you have a source for “the players” considering Carey Price to be the best ever?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

LOL how about no...

Agreed with LBD10. Be respectful of other posters.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The "players today would be the best ever, because players today are better than ever" argument is lazy as shit.

It's a waste of everyone's time and it pollutes the very nature of the History subforum, where all posters ostensibly respect the rich tapestry of the game and the players who played it.

“his rival for awards his own position was a creme de la creme all time great, so one can argue that his all-star record is more impressive than the current player at that position.”

“but there were no europeans!”

 

[tinyzombies]

"(In the 19-20 RS) Price managed to rank seventh among goalies by the most applicable, best-adjusted stats despite the fact that he faced the second-toughest situation of any goalie in the league in terms of both non-rebound shots and shot quality, only behind soon-to-be Vezina-winner Connor Hellebuyck."

Carey Price Had an Amazing Season with the Montreal Canadiens

"January 1 ·
Price is third in the league in high danger shots against, 6th in HD saves. 2nd in rush attempts against. So we aren't defending the slot and are getting run on. Price is not the problem."

2020 Playoffs:

 

[buffalowing88]

Hull-Gretzky-Howe
Orr-Harvey
Roy

 

[bobholly39]

Why do your posts always begin with LOL? Varied opinion are welcome here. There is no one right answer.

I agree with you but also find his posts hilarious lol.

 

[bobholly39]

On the topic of Price

I find posts on the main boards saying McDavid/Crosby in the 80s would score 300+ points idiotic, and similarly idiotic posts saying Gretzky couldn't score 40 in today's league. Gretzky is much better than Crosby/McDavid.

I'm a little more open minded in regards to goalies though. I feel so much of their abilities are tied to techniques and athletics - and i think those are things that have just gotten better with time. To me Carey Price is the best goalie of the post cap-era - he had the best peak (career is much more debatable). I could probably get behind the idea that goalies today are more capable than goalies of even ~20 years ago - and Price being the best of the bunch, is therefore the best. Obviously that doesn't necessarily make him the "goat" since vs league and peers Hasek/Roy are eons above him. But in absolute sense for goalie skills, may not be all that far fetched

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

On the topic of Price

I find posts on the main boards saying McDavid/Crosby in the 80s would score 300+ points idiotic, and similarly idiotic posts saying Gretzky couldn't score 40 in today's league. Gretzky is much better than Crosby/McDavid.

I'm a little more open minded in regards to goalies though. I feel so much of their abilities are tied to techniques and athletics - and i think those are things that have just gotten better with time. To me Carey Price is the best goalie of the post cap-era - he had the best peak (career is much more debatable). I could probably get behind the idea that goalies today are more capable than goalies of even ~20 years ago - and Price being the best of the bunch, is therefore the best. Obviously that doesn't necessarily make him the "goat" since vs league and peers Hasek/Roy are eons above him. But in absolute sense for goalie skills, may not be all that far fetched

Do you really think if you dropped Price into the 1960 NHL with no mask and the pads, skates, trappers, blockers and skates of those times he would look so much better than Plante, Hall and Sawchuk?

 

[bobholly39]

Do you really think if you dropped Price into the 1960 NHL with no mask and the pads, skates, trappers, blockers and skates of those times he would look so much better than Plante, Hall and Sawchuk?

No of course not. Any player needs time to adjust to a different era, especially a goalie.

That's not what I said though.

 

[Boxscore]

There is zero credible case to be made to consider Carey Price the greatest goalie in NHL history. Like it's not even feasible...

He was considered the "best goalie in the NHL" once in his entire career--ONCE. Granted, Price was an absolute machine that year--taking home the Vezina and Hart, etc. And, while he's been considered "one of the best" during his era--he has never sustained dominance over his peers. As for career achievements...

Vezina = 1
Stanley Cups = 0
1st Team All-star = 1
All-star games = 6
Hart = 1
Jennings = 1
Lindsay = 1
Career wins = 23rd all-time
Career GAA = 32nd all-time
Career Save % = 16th all-time
Career shutouts = 33rd all-time

Price is an excellent goalie--one of the best today for sure--but he isn't in the all-time discussion. Not even close. Out of the Top-10. Labelling Price to greatest goalie all-time is akin to saying McDavid is greater than Gretzky and Duncan Keith is greater than Orr--it's pretty outlandish.

 

[Thenameless]

Do you really think if you dropped Price into the 1960 NHL with no mask and the pads, skates, trappers, blockers and skates of those times he would look so much better than Plante, Hall and Sawchuk?

A lot of today's goalies wouldn't set a foot on the ice without a mask.

 

[Perennial]

I think Lemieux was better than Gretzky, but if we're talking GOAT as in Greatest Of All Time, Gretzky was clearly the greater player...

 

[The Panther]

I think Lemieux was better than Gretzky

It's fine to think that. However, there's no evidence for it...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

No of course not. Any player needs time to adjust to a different era, especially a goalie.

That's not what I said though.

You're right. I should have addressed my response to the original "Price is the best ever" poster.

 

[M88K]

A lot of today's goalies wouldn't set a foot on the ice without a mask.

Against today's players of course not, back then? I'm sure several would without issue

 

[Theokritos]

Against today's players of course not, back then? I'm sure several would without issue

You mean against players with composite sticks vs players with wood sticks?

 

[M88K]

You mean against players with composite sticks vs players with wood sticks?

If only that told the entire story right. It's not like the players back then were hitting 90+mph each and every game, and even if they were most shots were closer to the ice surface than not.
As a person who played defense my entire life i would stand in front of anyones shot back then without pads, there's very few I'd stand in front of today without pads, I can't imagine many goalies not being willing to do so sans mask. Then again goalies have become a bit too pampered so maybe

 

[Perennial]

It's fine to think that. However, there's no evidence for it...

Except for the hundreds of hours of video evidence...

 

[tinyzombies]

Do you really think if you dropped Price into the 1960 NHL with no mask and the pads, skates, trappers, blockers and skates of those times he would look so much better than Plante, Hall and Sawchuk?

This is not the argument I was making and the question wasn't defined this narrowly. But if you let him keep his technique I don't see why he'd need all that equipment. He'd just have to watch out for Hull... the rest of them would be a picnic for him. It's a picnic for him now if he sees the puck and there are a few Hulls on the ice at any given time with minimal windups. In your hypothetical I assume he grew up with no mask, so I don't see the problem. Would be far easier for him to adjust than for Glenn Hall to step in net today.

Also, you are slipping out from under the real argument. Price is THE GOAT and it's not even close. Hasek would be great today, but he would have to change his style as he did when he got older because he would be letting in uneccesary goals- but his flexibility would allow him to remain dominant. Roy I think would have problems because of his size/quickness/lack of flexibility combo, but Lundqvist played deep effectively. I just don't see him, even if you upgrade him, being at the level of Price in today's Super NHL.

As for Gretzky, I think he'd be an excellent offensive player. Put him in McDavid's shoes and his role wouldn't change much- he wouldn't have to play defense. He would definitely need Draisitl on his line though, whereas McDavid doesn't need him. Would Edmonton win more games? I doubt it.

 

[The Panther]

This is not the argument I was making and the question wasn't defined this narrowly. But if you let him keep his technique I don't see why he'd need all that equipment. He'd just have to watch out for Hull... the rest of them would be a picnic for him. It's a picnic for him now if he sees the puck and there are a few Hulls on the ice at any given time with minimal windups. In your hypothetical I assume he grew up with no mask, so I don't see the problem. Would be far easier for him to adjust than for Glenn Hall to step in net today.

Also, you are slipping out from under the real argument. Price is THE GOAT and it's not even close. Hasek would be great today, but he would have to change his style as he did when he got older because he would be letting in uneccesary goals- but his flexibility would allow him to remain dominant. Roy I think would have problems because of his size/quickness/lack of flexibility combo, but Lundqvist played deep effectively. I just don't see him, even if you upgrade him, being at the level of Price in today's Super NHL.

As for Gretzky, I think he'd be an excellent offensive player. Put him in McDavid's shoes and his role wouldn't change much- he wouldn't have to play defense. He would definitely need Draisitl on his line though, whereas McDavid doesn't need him. Would Edmonton win more games? I doubt it.

Saying it first: I'm not even going to touch this one.

 

[tinyzombies]

Saying it first: I'm not even going to touch this one.

It doesn't matter what you say, the proof is on video, it's easy to see, and the advanced stats back it up. Price has powerful allies when the time comes to fight for his legacy. It's going to be a Tim Raines type situation where we'll have to take it to the underlying numbers, but Price is far superior in his situation than Raines was. Even Roy said that in his day a .907 or a .908 meant you were a good goalie. Now we all know the standard is .920 AND the obstacles have evolved drastically. But that stat is considered obsolete anyway. Right now he's in Eric Lindros or Peter Forsberg territory, other players that are vastly underrated, but if he puts in another 2-3 elite seasons he should gain his proper footing as Hasek did. As the advanced stats show in the article I posted, an elite season for a goalie can be deceiving because if you look at the surface numbers Price had an off year, but if you look at the advanced numbers it was an elite season maybe only behind Hellebuyck. I think Price is the best ever, but we have just entered this new phase of goaltending, so I'm sure someone will come along to surpass him or rise to his level - many goalies have had seasons like that here and there. There may be a few now who might be even better athletes like Bobrovsky, but they aren't better goalies.