How many cups do the Johnny-Matty era Leafs win?

[X66]

I'll put the most pressure on this team and I don't have a single problem with that.

John Tavares is a top 5 NHL center and Auston Matthews will likely be that as earlier as next year.

When you have two franchise level centers running the show, that's going to be a match-up nightmare for teams, especially with the way they both drive play.

The bonus is that Tavares has turned in to an elite two-way center, and Matthews is well on his way to becoming that as well.

If the Leafs don't win a cup in the next 7 years, that's just bad luck, because they're cup or bust from this point on.

 

[X66]

It matters because the qualifications you keep adding for other posters keeps going up, the last one being two franchise centers on the same team in their primes.

Tavares and Matthews are not franchise centers in their primes. Tavares is.

You're not sticking to the same qualifications you're challenging others to. Hypocrisy at its best. Here how to keep moving the goal posts:

-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons when they played in the playoffs (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons when they played in the playoffs while they were both in their prime...for the record how many cup winners can you say this about? Edmonton and Pittsburgh are the only ones that come to mind. No Yzerman/Fedorov were both not in their primes when they won their cups (actually neither were).

This isn't to mention that you still insist that Matthews is as good as Gartner, Messier, Fedorov, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, etc. That Nicholls was never as goo

Seriously, it's ok to be wrong. We've all been there before, just man up and move on.

Wait, who were the two franchise centers?

Surely you don't mean Pavelski and Kesler are franchise centers...

 

[BayStreetBully]

I'll put the most pressure on this team and I don't have a single problem with that.

John Tavares is a top 5 NHL center and Auston Matthews will likely be that as earlier as next year.

When you have two franchise level centers running the show, that's going to be a match-up nightmare for teams, especially with the way they both drive play.

The bonus is that Tavares has turned in to an elite two-way center, and Matthews is well on his way to becoming that as well.

If the Leafs don't win a cup in the next 7 years, that's just bad luck, because they're cup or bust from this point on.

I agree with the 7 year remark. While you can never guarantee a cup, you have to feel pretty good about the Leafs’ chances over the next 7 years. Injuries happen from time to time, and opposing goalies go on hot streaks at the right (wrong) time. 7 chances? 1 of those chances should eventually go your way.

 

[boredmale]

I agree with the 7 year remark. While you can never guarantee a cup, you have to feel pretty good about the Leafs’ chances over the next 7 years.

Not with their defense. If Toronto decides to stay the course with it's younger recently drafted defensemen + Reilly, that would put them at least 4 if not 5 years away from any legit chance at the cup(and that assumes that at least 2 of them pan out as expected)

I know leaf fans like pointing to Washington's rag tag group of defensemen but one thing I noticed on that group that Toronto lacks is experience.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Not with their defense. If Toronto decides to stay the course with it's younger recently drafted defensemen + Reilly, that would put them at least 4 if not 5 years away from any legit chance at the cup(and that assumes that at least 2 of them pan out as expected)

A 4-3 game works just as well as a 3-2 game.

Maybe the other teams should fix their offense, before they can compete with the Leafs’ forwards.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Not with their defense. If Toronto decides to stay the course with it's younger recently drafted defensemen + Reilly, that would put them at least 4 if not 5 years away from any legit chance at the cup(and that assumes that at least 2 of them pan out as expected)

I know leaf fans like pointing to Washington's rag tag group of defensemen but one thing I noticed on that group that Toronto lacks is experience.

You are vastly overestimating how long it takes defensemen to make an impact after they’re drafted.

 

[BM14]

Not with their defense. If Toronto decides to stay the course with it's younger recently drafted defensemen + Reilly, that would put them at least 4 if not 5 years away from any legit chance at the cup(and that assumes that at least 2 of them pan out as expected)

I know leaf fans like pointing to Washington's rag tag group of defensemen but one thing I noticed on that group that Toronto lacks is experience.

Toronto has a legit chance this year, so there goes that theory.

 

[boredmale]

You are vastly overestimating how long it takes defensemen to make an impact after they’re drafted.

I do believe that defensemen need a few years under their belt to get the full feel how to play a 200 foot game in the NHL. Sure you might have a few that can find the offence early on but most defensmen don't hit their stride in the NHL till 24-25ish

 

[ScaredStreit]

Wait, who were the two franchise centers?

Surely you don't mean Pavelski and Kesler are franchise centers...

Gartner and Messier weren't franchise centers?

 

[X66]

Gartner and Messier weren't franchise centers?

I know when Gartner was traded from the Rangers he was a right winger, how many years did he play center for the rangers.

He goes down in history as a right-winger anyways.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I know when
Gartner was traded from the Rangers he was a right winger, how many years did he play center for the rangers.

He goes down in history as a right-winger anyways.

I edited my post after you quoted (not blaming you obviously):

Lafontaine and Hawerchuk weren't? Lafontaine and Trottier weren't? Isles never won the cup with Lafontaine, but later when he and Trottier were both franchise centers they didn't win. Again my point is that every time somebody gives an example the the poster changes the goal posts and makes excuses. I know you're a Leaf fan...would you really say that Matthews or Tavares are easily as good as Yzerman, Fedorov, Messier, Sakic, or Forsberg? I mean really?

I don't know how anybody could honestly say that Tavares or Matthews (especially) is on that level yet. That's crazy talk.

 

[TheBradyBunch]

I'll put the most pressure on this team and I don't have a single problem with that.

John Tavares is a top 5 NHL center and Auston Matthews will likely be that as earlier as next year.

When you have two franchise level centers running the show, that's going to be a match-up nightmare for teams, especially with the way they both drive play.

The bonus is that Tavares has turned in to an elite two-way center, and Matthews is well on his way to becoming that as well.

If the Leafs don't win a cup in the next 7 years, that's just bad luck, because they're cup or bust from this point on.

Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Tavares, and Matthews?

At one point during the next 7 years, Tavares and Matthews will both likely be top 10 centermen in the league, that much I'll grant you. No need for hyperbole, though.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Gartner and Messier weren't franchise centers?

Gartner wasn’t even a center, and even then only played with Messier for two playoff seasons.

 

[Mickey Marner]

I know when Gartner was traded from the Rangers he was a right winger, how many years did he play center for the rangers.

He goes down in history as a right-winger anyways.

None. He was a winger and Matthews is much better than Gartner anyhow.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I edited my post after you quoted (not blaming you obviously):

Lafontaine and Hawerchuk weren't? Lafontaine and Trottier weren't? Isles never won the cup with Lafontaine, but later when he and Trottier were both franchise centers they didn't win. Again my point is that every time somebody gives an example the the poster changes the goal posts and makes excuses. I know you're a Leaf fan...would you really say that Matthews or Tavares are easily as good as Yzerman, Fedorov, Messier, Sakic, or Forsberg? I mean really?

I don't know how anybody could honestly say that Tavares or Matthews (especially) is on that level yet. That's crazy talk.

Lafontaine and Trottier’s primes didn’t overlap in NYI.

Lafontaine and Hawerchuk’s time was marred by Lafontaine’s injuries and Hawerchuk declining. They didn’t have all that many chances. Just two chances.

It’s not about moving the goalposts. It’s about providing context for silly examples given by you and others.

 

[X66]

I edited my post after you quoted (not blaming you obviously):

Lafontaine and Hawerchuk weren't? Lafontaine and Trottier weren't? Isles never won the cup with Lafontaine, but later when he and Trottier were both franchise centers they didn't win. Again my point is that every time somebody gives an example the the poster changes the goal posts and makes excuses. I know you're a Leaf fan...would you really say that Matthews or Tavares are easily as good as Yzerman, Fedorov, Messier, Sakic, or Forsberg? I mean really?

I don't know how anybody could honestly say that Tavares or Matthews (especially) is on that level yet. That's crazy talk.

I also don't think it's outlandish to think Matthews could be like those guys either.

He's the only teenage rookie in the history of the NHL to finish top 3 in goals in a season.

He's one of only 19 centers all time, and one of only 5 centers since the year 2000 to average a point per-game while playing over 60 games in his 20 year-old season.

He's unbelievably good and has smashed expectations so far.

Lafontaine and Hawerchuk is a solid example and I give you that no problem. But since those guys played, it looks more and more likely that the dynamic duo down the middle win the cup.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Lafontaine and Trottier’s primes didn’t overlap in NYI.

Lafontaine and Hawerchuk’s time was marred by Lafontaine’s injuries and Hawerchuk declining. They didn’t have all that many chances. Just two chances.

It’s not about moving the goalposts. It’s about providing context for silly examples given by you and others.

Matthews being better than Yzerman, Messier, Fedorov, Sakic, Forsberg isn't silly? Give me a break. We'll revisit this thread 5 years from now and see if you're right. I'm not even saying they wont win a cup, I'm just saying that it's not a slam-dunk and that they really need a better defense.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Tavares, and Matthews?

At one point during the next 7 years, Tavares and Matthews will both likely be top 10 centermen in the league, that much I'll grant you. No need for hyperbole, though.

Yeah best to just ignore some of the more excitable posters in this thread. There’s no way that Tavares is a top 5 center. Matthews? Who knows. He has the potential but still needs to prove it. There’s a lot of hyperbole from some Leaf fans who have good reason to be excited but tend to go overboard.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Lafontaine and Trottier’s primes didn’t overlap in NYI.

Lafontaine and Hawerchuk’s time was marred by Lafontaine’s injuries and Hawerchuk declining. They didn’t have all that many chances. Just two chances.

It’s not about moving the goalposts. It’s about providing context for silly examples given by you and others.

2001-02 Rangers
Messier
Lindros
Bure
Leetch
Fleury
Richter
Nedved

They didn't win the cup either!

 

[steveayres35]

I personally find it hard to believe that the Leafs won't win anything at all, even if Andersen has his moments...

IMO, I think they'll either win 1 or 2 cups because: Tavares is only 27. Now, if he was older, then we would have a different argument.

Overall, if Toronto can fix their defensive issues, then they'll be back to the glory days: No more 1967...

 

[X66]

Yeah best to just ignore some of the more excitable posters in this thread. There’s no way that Tavares is a top 5 center. Matthews? Who knows. He has the potential but still needs to prove it.

If you don't think John Tavares is a top 5 center you know nothing about his game, but I'm happy to educate you on it.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Matthews being better than Yzerman, Messier, Fedorov, Sakic, Forsberg isn't silly? Give me a break. We'll revisit this thread 5 years from now and see if you're right. I'm not even saying they wont win a cup, I'm just saying that it's not a slam-dunk and that they really need a better defense.

I never said Matthews is better than those guys, but he’s trending to be the same caliber of player. Tavares is as close to that level as just about any current center besides the Crosby/McDavid types. These are the superstar centers I’m referring to. Not Pavelski or Gartner or Nicholls.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I also don't think it's outlandish to think Matthews could be like those guys either.

He's the only teenage rookie in the history of the NHL to finish top 3 in goals in a season.

He's on of only 19 centers all time, and one of only 5 centers since the year 2000 to average a point per-game while playing over 60 games in his 20 year-old season.

He's unbelievably good and has smashed expectations so far.

Lafontaine and Hawerchuk is a solid example and I give you that no problem. But since those guys played, it looks more and more likely that the dynamic duo down the middle win the cup.

I'm not saying it's not outlandish that one day he might be like those guys. But he's still a long way from it and it's not going to be "easy". Again anybody who thinks that is really biased. Again at no point has Matthews been arguably the best player in the world whereas all of those guys have been. Tavares has never been on their level and as an Islander fan (who actually doesn't hate Tavares for what he did mind you), and has seen him play a lot more than 99% of posters here, yes he's an elite player, yes he's a top 10 center, but no he's never been arguably the best player in the world or really close to it tbh.

 

[BayStreetBully]

2001-02 Rangers
Messier
Lindros
Bure
Leetch
Fleury
Richter
Nedved

They didn't win the cup either!

And the 2004 Leafs!

Sundin
Francis
Nieuwendyk
Mogilny
Leetch
Belfour

They had THREE superstar centers at one point in their careers!

 

[BayStreetBully]

I'm not saying it's not outlandish that one day he might be like those guys. But he's still a long way from it and it's not going to be "easy". Again anybody who thinks that is really biased. Again at no point has Matthews been arguably the best player in the world whereas all of those guys have been. Tavares has never been on their level and as an Islander fan (who actually doesn't hate Tavares for what he did mind you), and has seen him play a lot more than 99% of posters here, yes he's an elite player, yes he's a top 10 center, but no he's never been arguably the best player in the world or really close to it tbh.

Sakic and Forsberg and Yzerman and Fedorov were never the best players in the world. That’s why I used them as comparables, and not Gretzky or Lemieux or Crosby.

Matthews and Tavares don’t have to be the best in the world. One will be top 5, and the other top 10 center. That’s good enough, and something maybe only 1 or 2 other teams have.