How many cups do the Johnny-Matty era Leafs win?

[Tad Mikowsky]

Lecavalier was a tier below throughout most of his career. Not the caliber of center I’m talking about. Nevertheless, he wasn’t even in his prime long enough with Stamkos.

You’re just proving my point:

If a center like Lecalvalier, who at his peak was one of the best players in the planet, isn’t considered high enough, then why the f*** is John Tavares and Auston Matthews considered to be up there.

Once again: it’s because they are Toronto Maple Leafs.

 

[ScaredStreit]

You’re just proving my point:

If a center like Lecalvalier, who at his peak was one of the best players in the planet, isn’t considered high enough, then why the **** is John Tavares and Auston Matthews considered to be up there.

Once again: it’s because they are Toronto Maple Leafs.

[mod] Lecavalier at one points was arguably the best player on the planet. Matthews and Tavares have never been in that conversation. But now they both have to be in their primes! Goal posts moved again! Matthews is a great young player, but with the way BayStreetBully's talking you'd think he was McDavid or Crosby lol.

 

[BayStreetBully]

You’re just proving my point:

If a center like Lecalvalier, who at his peak was one of the best players in the planet, isn’t considered high enough, then why the **** is John Tavares and Auston Matthews considered to be up there.

Once again: it’s because they are Toronto Maple Leafs.

How long was Lecavalier’s peak? He didn’t play great enough for long enough. Tavares is a higher level player than Lecavalier, and he’s still in his prime.

Matthews is self-explanatory.

 

[BAM]

Yeah but they need 1

Rielly is a number #1 D-man

 

[Skolman]

Rielly is a number #1 D-man

He's not on a Stanley Cup Championship team

 

[BAM]

He's not on a Stanley Cup Championship team

Wrong, thanks for coming out.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Wrong, thanks for coming out.

Toronto is not a Stanley cup champion team yet so that poster was 100% right whether thats what he meant or not

 

[BayStreetBully]

[mod] Lecavalier at one points was arguably the best player on the planet. Matthews and Tavares have never been in that conversation. But now they both have to be in their primes! Goal posts moved again! Matthews is a great young player, but with the way BayStreetBully's talking you'd think he was McDavid or Crosby lol.

Of course both superstar centers have to be in their primes. Isn’t that self-explanatory? It’s just as self-explanatory as both superstar centers having to play with each other long enough, not just 1 or 2 years.

Taking a 60 year old Gretzky out of retirement and putting him with a 55 year old Lemieux in the Leafs’ lineup isn’t going to win Toronto a cup. They kinda have to be in their primes for their names to actually mean anything!

So no, it’s not enough to list an example of two superstar centers playing together for 1 or 2 years, naming subpar centers, or naming centers whose prime doesn’t coincide with his tandem center partner. What’s next? Naming basketball centers? “But they’re SUPERSTAR CENTERS!!!!! You said SUPERSTAR CENTERS!!!”

 

[ScaredStreit]

Of course both superstar centers have to be in their primes. Isn’t that self-explanatory? It’s just as self-explanatory as both superstar centers having to play with each other long enough, not just 1 or 2 years.

Taking a 60 year old Gretzky out of retirement and putting him with a 55 year old Lemieux in the Leafs’ lineup isn’t going to win Toronto a cup. They kinda have to be in their primes for their names to actually mean anything!

So no, it’s not enough to list an example of two superstar centers playing together for 1 or 2 years, naming subpar centers, or naming centers whose prime doesn’t coincide with his tandem center partner. What’s next? Naming basketball centers? “But they’re SUPERSTAR CENTERS!!!!! You said SUPERSTAR CENTERS!!!”

Are you suggesting that Matthews is currently in his prime?

 

[BayStreetBully]

Are you suggesting that Matthews is currently in his prime?

What are you getting at? Why does it matter? Is he a 35 year old past his prime? Will his prime not coincide with Tavares’ prime? Is Tavares supposed to fall off the earth over the next few years? Yeah, I suppose if Tavares’ game falls off, then Matthews and Tavares don’t get to share their primes for long. You better hope Tavares declines soon, because if he stays in his prime for much of his contract, then historically the odds are in the Leafs’ favour.

 

[BAM]

Toronto is not a Stanley cup champion team yet so that poster was 100% right whether thats what he meant or not

He can be a #1 D man on a championship caliber team, is what I meant.

 

[ScaredStreit]

How long was Lecavalier’s peak? He didn’t play great enough for long enough. Tavares is a higher level player than Lecavalier, and he’s still in his prime.

Matthews is self-explanatory.

Best point finish:

Lecavalier: 3
Tavares: 2
Matthews: 20

You're absolutely correct, that is self-explanatory.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

He can be a #1 D man on a championship caliber team, is what I meant.

with a defensively strong partner Id agree. Without one hed probably be most comfortable as a 2D but these are small adjustments were talking about

Either way Rielly is a top pair dman for sure

 

[ScaredStreit]

What are you getting at? Why does it matter? Is he a 35 year old past his prime? Will his prime not coincide with Tavares’ prime? Is Tavares supposed to fall off the earth over the next few years? Yeah, I suppose if Tavares’ game falls off, then Matthews and Tavares don’t get to share their primes for long. You better hope Tavares declines soon, because if he stays in his prime for much of his contract, then historically the odds are in the Leafs’ favour.

It matters because the qualifications you keep adding for other posters keeps going up, the last one being two franchise centers on the same team in their primes.

Tavares and Matthews are not franchise centers in their primes. Tavares is.

You're not sticking to the same qualifications you're challenging others to. Hypocrisy at its best. Here how to keep moving the goal posts:

-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons when they played in the playoffs (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons when they played in the playoffs while they were both in their prime...for the record how many cup winners can you say this about? Edmonton and Pittsburgh are the only ones that come to mind. No Yzerman/Fedorov were both not in their primes when they won their cups (actually neither were).

This isn't to mention that you still insist that Matthews is as good as Gartner, Messier, Fedorov, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, etc. That Nicholls was never as goo

Seriously, it's ok to be wrong. We've all been there before, just man up and move on.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Lol and you call me a troll. I’m sorry my positivity is riling you up.

Something wrong with facts?

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

It matters because the qualifications you keep adding for other posters keeps going up, the last one being two franchise centers on the same team in their primes.

Tavares and Matthews are not franchise centers in their primes. Tavares is.

You're not sticking to the same qualifications you're challenging others to. Hypocrisy at its best. Here how to keep moving the goal posts:

-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons when they played in the playoffs (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons when they played in the playoffs while they were both in their prime...for the record how many cup winners can you say this about? Edmonton and Pittsburgh are the only ones that come to mind. No Yzerman/Fedorov were both not in their primes when they won their cups (actually neither were).

This isn't to mention that you still insist that Matthews is as good as Gartner, Messier, Fedorov, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, etc. That Nicholls was never as goo

Seriously, it's ok to be wrong. We've all been there before, just man up and move on.

We both know he won’t accept that and just say it’s Haters hatin my positivity!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

He'll move the goal posts again, now that he's been proven wrong. That's what trolls do.

I'm starting to get that picture. Thx.

 

[BayStreetBully]

It matters because the qualifications you keep adding for other posters keeps going up, the last one being two franchise centers on the same team in their primes.

Tavares and Matthews are not franchise centers in their primes. Tavares is.

You're not sticking to the same qualifications you're challenging others to. Hypocrisy at its best. Here how to keep moving the goal posts:

-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons when they played in the playoffs (somebody did)
-Name 2 franchise centers on the same team that never won the cup for 5 seasons when they played in the playoffs while they were both in their prime...for the record how many cup winners can you say this about? Edmonton and Pittsburgh are the only ones that come to mind. No Yzerman/Fedorov were both not in their primes when they won their cups (actually neither were).

This isn't to mention that you still insist that Matthews is as good as Gartner, Messier, Fedorov, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, etc. That Nicholls was never as goo

Seriously, it's ok to be wrong. We've all been there before, just man up and move on.

I’m sorry, I don’t accept Nicholls playing wih Gretzky for 1 year as proof of anything.

You sure spent a lot of energy trying to pick apart my theory, but all for waste as you’ve used some terrible examples and proven nothing. I know you are uncomfortable with Leafs positivity, but that’s the new norm moving forward. You worry too much. Just relax and enjoy the parade down Bay!

 

[Brock Radunske]

I'm a Leafs fan and the OP makes me want to barf

 

[BAM]

with a defensively strong partner Id agree. Without one hed probably be most comfortable as a 2D but these are small adjustments were talking about

Either way Rielly is a top pair dman for sure

All the stats and eye test say he's a #1 D-man right now, the Leafs were 7th in GA after Dermott got called up. A full season of no polak will do wonders as well. Rielly is the most underrated D-man on this site and it's hilarious.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I’m sorry, I don’t accept Nicholls playing wih Gretzky for 1 year as proof of anything.

You sure spent a lot of energy trying to pick apart my theory, but all for waste as you’ve used some terrible examples and proven nothing. I know you are uncomfortable with Leafs positivity, but that’s the new norm moving forward. You worry too much. Just relax and enjoy the parade down Bay!

I lived 5 min walk from Bay (Church/Shuter at Jazz), I assure you I'm not anti Leaf and love Toronto. I'm just able to see reality for what it is and not what some want it to be.

Oh and who are we kidding? Yonge is a much better fit for a parade, make a little stop at Dundas Square.

Make it to the 2nd round before even bringing up cups.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I lived 5 min walk from Bay (Church/Shuter at Jazz), I assure you I'm not anti Leaf and love Toronto. I'm just able to see reality for what it is and not what some want it to be.

Oh and who are we kidding? Yonge is a much better fit for a parade, make a little stop at Dundas Square.

Your examples are not reality. Gretzky and Nicholls playing together for 1 year means nothing. Hawerchuk and Lafontaine playing in only 2 playoffs together when both are actually good means nothing. What exactly are you trying to prove with players like Nicholls and short 1 or 2 year time frames?

I was originally hoping for sometime to prove me wrong when I said I couldn’t think of any example where 2 superstar centers playing together for a good many years never won the cup. I couldn’t think of any examples and thought I’d use the help of Leaf haters to happily prove me wrong. But turns out I haven’t been proven wrong, because I’ve not seen one valid example. I was curious at first, but now the examples being given are pretty laughable, and entertaining!

It leads me to believe Matthews and Tavares are destined for a cup, just like all the other superstar center tandems before them. The parade will probably go down Bay, not Yonge. That’s not too far from where you live. See you there.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

How about starting the conversation about winning just 1 playoff series before talking about how many cups these 2 will win.

Crosby didn’t even make the playoffs his first season in the league, and didn’t win a round until his third season.

Ovechkin didn’t make the playoffs until his third season, and didn’t win a round until his fourth season.

Stamkos didn’t make the playoffs until his third season.

MacKinnon made the playoffs his first season, but failed to do so again until four seasons later. He still hasn’t won a round.

Barkov didn’t make the postseason until his third year, still hasn’t won a round.

Point is, Matthews and company aren’t even close to needing concern over not winning a playoff round yet. They’re already tracking better than the aforementioned five players first two years in the league when it comes to team success.

 

[X66]

So of all the examples people thought of, Thornton and Pavelski was the only one?

So the vast majority of two franchise centers on the same team likely win a cup, eh?

(I'd never call Pavelski a franchise center).

 

[BayStreetBully]

So of all the examples people thought of, Thornton and Pavelski was the only one?

So the vast majority of two franchise centers on the same team likely win a cup, eh?

(I'd never call Pavelski a franchise center).

Thornton and Pavelski is probably the most relevant example they could come up with, and Pavelski is a tier below the caliber of superstar center I had in mind. I was thinking more of centers who, in isolation could lead their team to a cup even without the other superstar guy.

You know if there was a better example, they would’ve made sure to mention it by now.

So yes, it seems like having both a Matthews and a Tavares on your team would eventually lead to a cup.