How many cups do the Johnny-Matty era Leafs win?

[ScaredStreit]

I agree. 1-2 punches down the middle get it done. Anything can happen in any one given year. But give them 7 chances, and they will bring it home.

Sakic-Forsberg
Yzerman-Fedorov
Matthews-Tavares

Matthews will easily be up there, and so will Tavares after he wins his inevitable cup in Toronto.

I never said Matthews is better than those guys, but he’s trending to be the same caliber of player. Tavares is as close to that level as just about any current center besides the Crosby/McDavid types. These are the superstar centers I’m referring to. Not Pavelski or Gartner or Nicholls.

Well you did compare Tavares/Matthews to them...so yes obviously you said they were on the same level. You then go on to say that Matthews and Tavares will be easily be on that level. The only way to reach that level is to be the best player in the world at some point in your career something that Tavares has never done and probably wont and something that Matthews might do one day if he gets significantly better and gets lucky at the same time.

In no way is Tavares close to that level and in no way will it be easy for him or Matthews to reach it.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Sakic and Forsberg and Yzerman and Fedorov were never the best players in the world. That’s why I used them as comparables, and not Gretzky or Lemieux or Crosby.

Matthews and Tavares don’t have to be the best in the world. One will be top 5, and the other top 10 center. That’s good enough, and something maybe only 1 or 2 other teams have.

Fedorov, Sakic, and Forsberg all have won the Hart so yes they were the best at some point. Fedorov's 94 season is arguably the best all around season any forward has ever had, there's no argument for him not being the best that year. Yzerman's career point high has only been beaten by Lemieux and Gretzky.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Well you did compare Tavares/Matthews to them...so yes obviously you said they were on the same level. You then go on to say that Matthews and Tavares will be easily be on that level. The only way to reach that level is to be the best player in the world at some point in your career something that Tavares has never done and probably wont and something that Matthews might do one day if he gets significantly better and gets lucky at the same time.

In no way is Tavares close to that level and in no way will it be easy for him or Matthews to reach it.

I said same level. Not better. But hey, maybe even better for Matthews. In fact, I’d put my money on Matthews being better than some of them.

And Sakic/Forsberg/Yzerman/Fedorov were never the best in the world. There happened to be a certain Gretzky and Lemieux and Jagr around that time.

 

[rent free]

You are vastly overestimating how long it takes defensemen to make an impact after they’re drafted.

No he isn't. Typically, defenders aren't developed into top 4 defenders by 1, 2 or sometimes 3 seasons after they are drafted. It takes them time to develop. 4 or 5 years is more realistic than 1,2 or 3 years. Expecting the leafs defenders to play well in key positions as early as 1,2,3 seasons is wishful thinking, unless you have a prospect who is good enough to jump into the NHL asap, which the leafs don't have.

 

[ottawa]

7

 

[BayStreetBully]

Fedorov, Sakic, and Forsberg all have won the Hart so yes they were the best at some point. Fedorov's 94 season is arguably the best all around season any forward has ever had, there's no argument for him not being the best that year. Yzerman's career point high has only been beaten by Lemieux and Gretzky.

This is so stupid. If all Matthews has to do to be best in the world is win the Hart just once in his career, and do it in a year where McDavid is out due to back injury, then yes Matthews may be the best in the world at some point. And even if this happened or didn’t happen, it still wouldn’t mean anything.

At this point, I think you’re arguing just for the sake of arguing. Possibly trolling.

 

[ColbyChaos]

7 Cups and possibly a World Series because Tavares has generational hand-eye coordination and he could take October off from hockey one year to help the Jays win.

>Implying the Jays would even make the post season

 

[ScaredStreit]

I said same level. Not better. But hey, maybe even better for Matthews. In fact, I’d put my money on Matthews being better than some of them.

And Sakic/Forsberg/Yzerman/Fedorov were never the best in the world. There happened to be a certain Gretzky and Lemieux and Jagr around that time.

Fedorov was better than Gretzky in 94, Lemieux played in just 22 games, Jagr was still a few years away from being better than Fedorov.

Sakic won the Hart after Gretzky retired, Mario played half a season, trailed Jagr by just 3 points and was better defensively.

Forsberg won the Hart after Gretzky retired, was the only player to out PPG Lemieux, Jagr was on the caps and just wasn't himself that year.

Yzerman won the Pearson despite being outscored by Lemieux and Gretzky...your argument is with the NHL players who thought he was better-not me.

You can't say that there's no argument for any of those years for those guys. You also can't argue Tavares or Matthews being the best at any point (which you admit).

 

[ScaredStreit]

This is so stupid. If all Matthews has to do to be best in the world is win the Hart just once in his career, and do it in a year where McDavid is out due to back injury, then yes Matthews may be the best in the world at some point. And even if this happened or didn’t happen, it still wouldn’t mean anything.

At this point, I think you’re arguing just for the sake of arguing. Possibly trolling.

So the NHL MVP winner isn't arguably the best player in the league? Right...keep trolling elsewhere.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Fedorov was better than Gretzky in 94, Lemieux played in just 22 games, Jagr was still a few years away from being better than Fedorov.

Sakic won the Hart after Gretzky retired, Mario played half a season, trailed Jagr by just 3 points and was better defensively.

Forsberg won the Hart after Gretzky retired, was the only player to out PPG Lemieux, Jagr was on the caps and just wasn't himself that year.

Yzerman won the Pearson despite being outscored by Lemieux and Gretzky...your argument is with the NHL players who thought he was better-not me.

You can't say that there's no argument for any of those years for those guys. You also can't argue Tavares or Matthews being the best at any point (which you admit).

Lol. Makes no difference.

 

[Paul4587]

Zero

 

[ScaredStreit]

Lol. Makes no difference.

There it is, the admitting of defeat. Have a good night.

 

[BayStreetBully]

So the NHL MVP winner isn't arguably the best player in the league? Right...keep trolling elsewhere.

Only the same way the player of the month and player of the week are the best for that designated short amount of time. Matthews was the best player in the world the night he scored 4 goals. Yay!

 

[BayStreetBully]

There it is, the admitting of defeat. Have a good night.

I’ll have a good decade, thanks.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Voted Zero.

Matthews, Tavares & Marner are exceptional pieces, but I need to see them create an overall better defense around them before we start talking multiple cups. With Tavares/Matthews they certainly have the foundation though.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Went with one because why not, but honestly even the best team in the league's chance of winning the cup in a given year is in the what, 10% range? I'm not great with "complex" probability, but I'm sure even over eight years that's going to be closer to zero cups than even one (let alone multiple).

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

My goal posts aren’t wide enough to include Kesler. I’m thinking more Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, Tavares, Stamkos level. McDavid, Matthews level.

I like how in your mind Tavares and Matthews are on the same level of guys like McDavid, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov at their best. The only guy you listed that they're close to is Stamkos.

Seriously, Tavares has a career high 86 points. Apart from this year, he's coming off two straight 70 and under point seasons. Putting him on a tier with the elite of the elite is blind homerism.

As far as Matthews is concerned, he's not proven he's at that level, either. That's not to say he doesn't have the potential, but AS OF YET, he's not in this high tier you keep putting him and Tavares in. The two of them are no more accomplished than Thornton/Pavelski were.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

I’ll have a good decade, thanks.

You probably said that the last couple decades too.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

If you don't think John Tavares is a top 5 center you know nothing about his game, but I'm happy to educate you on it.

McDavid
Crosby
Malkin
Backstrom
Kopitar
Bergeron
Stamkos

Sorry which one is he better than on this list? Maybe Stamkos. That’s it.

Top ten is more like it, but not a top five. Was he a top five center before or after signing with the Leafs?

Not much educating needed here.

 

[Gurilla]

They gotta win a playoff round before they can even think about a cup, let alone several of them

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Thornton's best is half a decade removed from Pavelski becoming a top-6 player, there was no overlap of them both being elite C's.

The year the Sharks went to the Stanley Cup finals:
Thornton - 82 points
Pavelski - 78 points

The Leafs' duo going into this year:
Tavares - 84 points
Matthews - 85 point (pace)

The 2 prior years to the Sharks going to the Cup final:
Thornton - 76 and 65 points, respectively
Pavelski - 79 and 70 points, respectively

The Leafs duo two years prior to this year:
Tavares - 70 and 66 points, respectively
Matthews - 69 and NA, respectively

I'm not seeing this massive difference in production for the Leaf duo around the time San Jose's two "Joes" were both still legitimate 1-2 punches.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I like how in your mind Tavares and Matthews are on the same level of guys like McDavid, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov at their best. The only guy you listed that they're close to is Stamkos.

Seriously, Tavares has a career high 86 points. Apart from this year, he's coming off two straight 70 and under point seasons. Putting him on a tier with the elite of the elite is blind homerism.

As far as Matthews is concerned, he's not proven he's at that level, either. That's not to say he doesn't have the potential, but AS OF YET, he's not in this high tier you keep putting him and Tavares in. The two of them are no more accomplished than Thornton/Pavelski were.

They’re on the same trajectory, more or less. Matthews may even be better. They’re roughly trending to be same level, whether you like it or not. Less accomplished, obviously, but that’s what happens when you’re 20 lol.

With those 86 points, Tavares was second in scoring. Tell me when Yzerman ever did that. Tell me when Sakic and Fedorov ever beat that. All that’s missing is a cup, but that’s on the way. Sorry dude, they’re comparables, like it or lump it.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

No he isn't. Typically, defenders aren't developed into top 4 defenders by 1, 2 or sometimes 3 seasons after they are drafted. It takes them time to develop. 4 or 5 years is more realistic than 1,2 or 3 years. Expecting the leafs defenders to play well in key positions as early as 1,2,3 seasons is wishful thinking, unless you have a prospect who is good enough to jump into the NHL asap, which the leafs don't have.

You just watched Draft +2 year McAvoy play well for the Bruins and you think it’s unrealistic to expect a defenseman to be ready by draft +3?

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Talk about planning the parade route... wow!

 

[boredmale]

You just watched Draft +2 year McAvoy play well for the Bruins and you think it’s unrealistic to expect a defenseman to be ready by draft +3?

My basic point when I talked about experience for Defense is if the leafs plan on winning with a top 4 of:

Morgan Rielly
Travis Dermott
Timothy Liljegren
Rasmus Sandin

That is at least 5 years away from winning a cup if everything works out perfect. Now they of coarse can make a trade(s) before 5 years that can change the fortunes of their defense(experience) but till the defense is addressed the Leafs are pretenders and not contenders. My 2 cents for the leafs is when the opportunity arises to get a legit top pairing defenseman they need to pound all over it(even if it means losing Nylander or Marner)