How crazy is it that Ovechkin may tie Gretkzy and Bossy for most 50-goal seasons this year?

[Strangle]

What? Where did you get it from? That's your fantasy. No one gets special benefit.
All the seasons were equalized on 6 goals per game:
Adjusted Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

read the equation - (real goals)*1.17*0.83*1.62 = more goals than were actually scored

Each goal is weighted at 1.57 each, instead of the more traditional 1

 

[5 Minute Major]

Being able to generate shots is a good thing. If we were judging goal scoring purely on shooting%, Andrew Brunette would be one of the greatest goal scorers of all time.

Oh, Gretzky could have generated as many shots as his little heart desired. He just chose to do a whole lot of passing as his number of assists, which is more than any player had total points, will attest to.

Make no mistake about it. Wayne Gretzky is the greatest offensive player to ever grace the ice in hockey history.....and it isn’t even close no matter what garbage theories are tossed about on these boards.

 

[Randyne]

read the equation - (real goals)*1.17*0.83*1.62 = more goals than were actually scored

Each goal is weighted at 1.57 each, instead of the more traditional 1

1.33 actually and that's for Howe in 1952-53 season only. Others get their own adjustment according to season and their performance. Read carefully.

 

[Strangle]

Oh, Gretzky could have generated as many shots as his little heart desired. He just chose to do a whole lot of passing as his number of assists, which is more than any player had total points, will attest to.

Make no mistake about it. Wayne Gretzky is the greatest offensive player to ever grace the ice in hockey history.....and it isn’t even close no matter what garbage theories are tossed about on these boards.

This is the truth.

man, what makes Ovechkin so special, is that he doesn’t need mathematicians to try to trick his goal totals to be where they are. You can actually physically see each goal that he has ever scored.

Without any tricks.

If Ovechkin can break the all time goal record, he will be the all time best goal scorer. Because he actually scored all those goals. And the crazy bastard has a legit shot at it! I love Ovechkin

 

[Strangle]

1.33 actually and that's was for Howe in 1952-53 season only. Others get theirs own adjustment according to season and their performance. Read carefully.

exactly .... why am I connecting these threads for you?

Ovechkin’s goals are adjusted up while Gretzky’s and lemieuxs are adjusted down.

what are you missing?

Howe DID NOT score 65 goals that year

 

[Randyne]

How’s DID NOT score 65 goals that year

Yes, because all seasons were adjusted to 6 goals per game, 82 games, 18 roster. Howe season was 4.6 goals per game, 70 games, 15.5 roster.
One concept: all seasons are equal between each other.
Is that so HARD to undersand? Really?

 

[Strangle]

Yes, because all seasons were adjusted to 6 goals per game, 82 games, 18 roster. Howe season was 4.6 goals per game, 70 games, 15.5 roster.
One concept: all season are equal between each other.
Is that so HARD? Really?

Its fantasy!

 

[Randyne]

Its fantasy!

As I said, today games are more competitive than from the 80s, so Ovechkin's stats are actually even higher.

 

[BlueBaron]

How crazy is it that Ovechkin has already taken 400 plus more shots than Wayne Gretzky took in Gretzky’s entire career yet is still more than 200 goals behind the Great One?

That is an interesting stat to be sure.

 

[Strangle]

As I said, today games are more competitive than from the 80s, so Ovechkin's stats are actually even higher.

Ovechkin’s stats are exactly what they are. They aren’t higher or lower

 

[Randyne]

Ovechkin’s stats are exactly what they are. They aren’t higher or lower

We were talking about adjusted stats. You called them fantasy, I didn't disagree with you, they are fantasy in Bossy/Gretzky favor.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin has more road goals 351-341 than home goals. Really impressive actually

 

[Fantomas]

Ovechkin’s stats are exactly what they are. They aren’t higher or lower

Sure, and Grant Fuhr is a terrible goalie.

 

[Fantomas]

Some people don't seem to get that the point of adjusted stats is that they adjust for the value of a goal. The value of a goal is different depending on the scoring context.

It's pretty simple stuff. To give a somewhat reductive example, scoring 40 goals in a league that averages 10 goals per game is less valuable than scoring 40 goals in a league that averages 5 goals per game. The latter is twice more valuable than the former.

 

[Strangle]

We were talking about adjusted stats. You called them fantasy, I didn't disagree with you, they are fantasy in Bossy/Gretzky favor.

Gretzky is 4th in that list with 759 goals or something. That’s not in his favor

 

[Strangle]

Some people don't seem to get that the point of adjusted stats is that they adjust for the value of a goal. The value of a goal is different depending on the scoring context.

It's pretty simple stuff. To give a somewhat reductive example, scoring 40 goals in a league that averages 10 goals per game is less valuable than scoring 40 goals in a league that averages 5 goals per game. The latter is twice more valuable than the former.

I’ve covered the adjusting the value of a goal. Unfortunately, goals are worth exactly 1 goal. Not 1.13 or 0.74 or any other imaginary number

 

[Fantomas]

I’ve covered the adjusting the value of a goal. Unfortunately, goals are worth exactly 1 goal. Not 1.13 or 0.74

The value of a goal is relative to the league context. You're arguing with really obvious stuff and that makes you look bad.

 

[Zuluss]

Given that in the Bossy/Gretzky era 50 goals were barely enough to crack top10 in goals, and in the Ovechkin era 50 goals is an almost certain Rocket win, 9 50-goal seasons by Ovechkin would be extremely impressive (while 9 50-goal seasons from Bossy/Gretzky just tell us their prime as goal-scorers lasted 9 seasons).

I actually think that for historical comparisons Ovechkin already has 9 50-goal seasons - he has 8 50-goal seasons and 1 more season with 49 goals and 1 or 2 goals called off on a coach's challenge.

 

[powerbomb]

These adjusted statistical models are absurd. There's not some magical formula that will let you compare different eras in some kind of scientific way, no matter how "right" it may feel when you weight the numbers and see names trade places. The game has changed in many ways, not just within the rules as written but in terms of how athletes are even developed, so it's asinine to imagine dropping a superstar of today into an era where many prominent athletes were smoking and drinking, unless you're willing to extrapolate on how raw talent that did put up those mind-boggling numbers might have been elevated with the advantage of modern analytics, performance training, diet, and other benefits afforded to 21st Century players.

I'm all for parsing data, tracking for variables, and looking for new perspectives, but just because math is fun doesn't mean the numbers it can produce are inherently meaningful. Like the saying goes: you can make statistics say anything.

 

[Strangle]

These adjusted statistical models are absurd. There's not some magical formula that will let you compare different eras in some kind of scientific way, no matter how "right" it may feel when you weight the numbers and see names trade places. The game has changed in many ways, not just within the rules as written but in terms of how athletes are even developed, so it's asinine to imagine dropping a superstar of today into an era where many prominent athletes were smoking and drinking, unless you're willing to extrapolate on how raw talent that did put up those mind-boggling numbers might have been elevated with the advantage of modern analytics, performance training, diet, and other benefits afforded to 21st Century players.

I'm all for parsing data, tracking for variables, and looking for new perspectives, but just because math is fun doesn't mean the numbers it can produce are inherently meaningful. Like the saying goes: you can make statistics say anything.

The thing you can compare are the actual point totals, actual goals scored, etc

making up formulas is absolutely absurd. The league needed to allow two line passes to even get modern players not to bore everyone out of the arenas. Where’s the negative adjustments for those changes? Point is, it’s impossible to account for everything that might make a difference to a players totals. All you can do is count what they did achieve.

meanwhile, Gretzky is criticized for making it look too easy and making records too difficult to break.

count the goals, assists and points. Who’s on top? Easy peasy

 

[tacogeoff]

The value of a goal is relative to the league context. You're arguing with really obvious stuff and that makes you look bad.

NHL records dont run upon adjusted stats though.

 

[kugelbahn]

Good analogy is a dollar value during different eras. In 50s you could buy a car for $2,000 now it is more like $20,000.
Alaska was bought for $7.2 million in 1867, it is $125 million in todays dollars.

You need to adjust to compare things between different eras.

 

[Randyne]

So funny:

Lol no, Mario was a better scorer (if you don't believe me just look a the stats)

692 > 690. Those are the stats.

Ha-ha. Low IQ, you can't compare those stats *comment deleted*

Adjusted stats: 797 > 616

Even according to these fantasy "adjusted" stats:
Mario g/gp: 0,75
Ovi g/gp 0,61

Nope. According to adjusted stats:
Ovechkin 797/1133=0.70
Lemieux 616/915=0.67

count the goals, assists and points. Who’s on top? Easy peasy

Again:
692>690

 

[robertmac43]

He is the greatest goal scorer of all time. That is that.

 

[capsfan59]

Mario Schmario. Does he have more goals than Ovechkin?
Longevity matters big time. Look at Roger Federer. Still going strong.