How can teams prevent situations like Marner & Laine?

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by steveayres35, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. Mido Registered User

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    11.634 x 5 years happened this one time and then...
     
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  2. Bandit HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

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    Since when has anything about NHL contracts ever been reasonable? I'm not advocating any of this BTW, merely stating the reality of the situation.
     
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  3. end Registered User

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    People have really been pushing this idea that teams "knew" that 30 year old UFAs had to be overpaid "because they hadn't been paid yet" and many appear to be wistful about it. It's hard to imagine why people think traditional hockey GMs have a noncompetitive old boys network.

    The fans put the money in so the team with their town's name can win hockey games. They don't do it so that someone can get paid for something they did somewhere else five years ago that they were also paid for when it happened.

    The reason the RFA process is taking so long is because rival GMs are not offer sheeting players. The compensation tiers are fair returns for many of these RFAs contract demands.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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  4. XX Sticky Icky Icky

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    Sign them to a Keller style deal early. No point waiting if you have faith that the player is going to be good or won't crater so badly the contract becomes a true albatross.
     
  5. Roboturner913 Registered User

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    I've heard Marc Bergevin can be of some help in these situations
     
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  6. bukwas Stanley Cup 2022

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    Not sure why teams would be interested in preventing themselves from having contract negotiations with premier young talent.
    There is a hard cap, identify the players you feel are worthy of a substantial portion of it and pay them. Then proceed to fill out the remaining roster spots with the remaining cap space. The landscape is changing, adapt or be left behind.
     
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  7. Ducks in a row Go Ducks Quack Quack

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    Step 1: Draft player
    Step 2: Sign player to entry level contract
    Step 3: Player plays in the NHL
    Step 4: Re-sign player to a new contract after 2 seasons of his entry level contract is over

    You can't re-sign a player early to prevent a situation with a player holding out for a ton of money if they did well on their entry level contract before he can be re-signed.
     
  8. XX Sticky Icky Icky

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    Players are risk averse. If you gave Marner 90%+ of what he was asking for on an 8 year deal a year ago, he'd have taken it. All Toronto did by waiting is drive up the price and create a situation where Marner has all the leverage and can cause drama. Sometimes overpaying a bit up front is worth it if you expect to recoup a ton on the back half of the contract. Cost certainty is also worth something.

    It's a lot more desireable than what is happening now. With Laine, I get the vibe he doesn't care about being in Winnipeg so that's another dimension to any potential deal.
     
  9. Ducks in a row Go Ducks Quack Quack

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    They still had to wait some time before they could sign him to a new contract and by that time they could he already did well in the NHL and because of that he wanted to get payed a good amount.
     
  10. DREGER21 Registered User

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    I would prevent both sides from dragging out negotiations past day 1 of the regular season. If the RFA hasn’t signed by then.. they forfeit playing for the full season. If they hold out again in the following season... they forfeit the next 3 seasons. Not sure if this could be considered collusion by the GM’s.
     
  11. tealhockey @overtheboards

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    Careful drafting?
     
  12. XX Sticky Icky Icky

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    You can extend a player before an ELC is over.

    I am saying that, coming off his 69 point season they should have put an 8 year deal on the table with a ton of money to see if he'd take it. Most players will, because that contract is guarenteed money and it's not worth it to risk an injury or a down year, however confident you are in yourself. They would have gotten him for $11m or less, for sure. Now Toronto is on its way to trading him or signing him to a short deal that isn't desireable, if they can even manage that.

    All of this could have been avoided if they had the prescence of mind to offer him a surprisingly good contract a year ago.
     
  13. Ducks in a row Go Ducks Quack Quack

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    Yes but not until a certain point and by then the player could of played in the NHL doing great causing him to want to get pay a lot.

    A player plays in the NHL does great wants to get payed a lot all a team can do is pay that amount or refuse. If player isn't happy by how much the team is willing to play you then have holdout situations.
     
  14. Chips Registered User

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    If teams are visibly willing to play hardball with other players, then the next up won’t exactly feel sorry for fighting for the contract they feel they’ve earned.

    Consistency in signing all their RFAs regardless of skill. Term should be the same, money proportional as possible.


    More favorable conditions encouraging other teams to offersheet.
     
  15. Brownies Registered User

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    Is it really what’s happening ? Tavares had a great season last year and they managed to get Barrie. They won’t simply lose Marner, if it happens. They’ll be able to get some help by trading him if they choose so.
     
  16. NiL8r87 Registered User

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    What do you mean? Assuming Marner gets paid what he’s worth then the Leafs can afford both.
     
  17. TheBloodyNine Berserk

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    Barrie isn't the answer to their defensive woes. But you completely missed the point of my previous post. Marner has way more prime years left in him than Tavares does.
     
  18. Sanchise90 Registered User

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    I'd argue outside maybe of the 4 1sts, the conditions are already pretty favourable. But, even then, the type of player you offer sheet at the AAV of 4 1sts is probably worth more than 4 1sts truth be told.

    It's more on GM's acting like absolute wusses not willing to offer sheet but perfectly willing to overpay UFA's and eat decline years.
     
  19. Sanchise90 Registered User

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    This is 1000% the truth.
     
  20. Chips Registered User

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    Those four 1sts represent potential talent to boost your team on much cheaper ELCs. Competitors often rely on having those players because they’re near the cap already with gaps in depth; teams are very reluctant to give them up, especially that many. To snatch away a top RFA you’re still going to have to pay close to the same UFA money so their team won’t match.

    Might as well sign the UFA and have those 1sts turn into young talent to join the team while the UFA is still there.


    Not to mention if even two of those firsts turn into good players, you can flip them for more than one player, possibly on better deals, than you would have signed to snag that single expensive RFA


    The compensation is really high, solid attempts wouldn’t be so rare otherwise. It’s specifically designed to give the illusion of there being more “free agent” years than there really are to appease players who don’t want 5+ year ELCs.

    The idea being to protect Owners’ shitty teams from losing young players, but of course every other team abuses it as well. Those teams can afford to pay RFAs proper value for their contributions (Panarin v Aho), as they should, but choose to play hardball with their overwhelming leverage, and use the money saved to grossly overpay said UFAs. Largely where that comes from.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  21. dlawong Registered User

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    Draft players with billionaire parents so money meant less to them but other things like fame and acceptance may meant more? Of course they need to be talented as well.

    It is difficult to stop a talented player wanting the same as what someone else can get especially if he sees himself as talented and valuable as the next guy. Once the trend is set, it is not surprising to expect others to follow suite. Also it is not always about the players, but their agent & families whether they play the negotiation tactics aggressively.

    NHL can control cost of young talents only if they increase the ELC contract years from 3 to 5 so the player will have to truly prove that they are worth those big RFA contract. The other thing they can do is merging some low market teams so there are more NHL players competing for jobs. It is all about market demand and supplies. Don't think this will happen though.
     
  22. Oddbob Registered User

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    How do you know Toronto didn't make an offer early last year? Also, paying more upfront with the hope of the player earning it, can and has backfired dramatically in the past.

    Answering the question at hand, I don't think you can prevent situations like this. It doesn't happen all that often that one team has 2 elite young guys who need to be paid big bucks, and paying one high dollars is inevitably going to lead to paying the other high as well. I think at most, Dubas could have played a little harder ball to get closer to 11 flat for Matthews, but who knows what was all done in negotiations.
     
  23. serp Registered User

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    Have your management group build a fantastic relationship with the player and hope he and your GM come to an understanding early enough how the contract situation is handled ? I don't think its completely prevently . There's only so much you can do if the player / his agent and you are not on the same page .
     
  24. Cats2TheCup Registered User

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    Don’t draft stars. Trade all your first round picks for third and fourth rounders. Then when you’re nowhere near the cap overpay for at least 3 of them when they’re free agents and build a super team.
     
  25. CountKong Registered User

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    Agreed! Having older, less productive players (sometimes dead weight) can be extremely demobilizing to a workforce. That being said, a certain amount of consistency should be shown before getting a huge payday (as in the case of Laine).
     

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