How can teams prevent situations like Marner & Laine?

[Mido]

11.634 x 5 years happened this one time and then...

 

[Bandit]

According to literally every comparable that exists for a playmaking winger like Marner.

Asking to be the highest or 2nd highest paid winger in NHL history because you had one season over PPG is not reasonable.

Since when has anything about NHL contracts ever been reasonable? I'm not advocating any of this BTW, merely stating the reality of the situation.

 

[end]

People have really been pushing this idea that teams "knew" that 30 year old UFAs had to be overpaid "because they hadn't been paid yet" and many appear to be wistful about it. It's hard to imagine why people think traditional hockey GMs have a noncompetitive old boys network.

The fans put the money in so the team with their town's name can win hockey games. They don't do it so that someone can get paid for something they did somewhere else five years ago that they were also paid for when it happened.

The reason the RFA process is taking so long is because rival GMs are not offer sheeting players. The compensation tiers are fair returns for many of these RFAs contract demands.

 

[XX]

Sign them to a Keller style deal early. No point waiting if you have faith that the player is going to be good or won't crater so badly the contract becomes a true albatross.

 

[Roboturner913]

I've heard Marc Bergevin can be of some help in these situations

 

[bukwas]

Not sure why teams would be interested in preventing themselves from having contract negotiations with premier young talent.
There is a hard cap, identify the players you feel are worthy of a substantial portion of it and pay them. Then proceed to fill out the remaining roster spots with the remaining cap space. The landscape is changing, adapt or be left behind.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Sign them to a Keller style deal early. No point waiting if you have faith that the player is going to be good or won't crater so badly the contract becomes a true albatross.

Step 1: Draft player
Step 2: Sign player to entry level contract
Step 3: Player plays in the NHL
Step 4: Re-sign player to a new contract after 2 seasons of his entry level contract is over

You can't re-sign a player early to prevent a situation with a player holding out for a ton of money if they did well on their entry level contract before he can be re-signed.

 

[XX]

You can't re-sign a player early to prevent a situation with a player holding out for a ton of money if they did well on their entry level contract before he can be re-signed.

Players are risk averse. If you gave Marner 90%+ of what he was asking for on an 8 year deal a year ago, he'd have taken it. All Toronto did by waiting is drive up the price and create a situation where Marner has all the leverage and can cause drama. Sometimes overpaying a bit up front is worth it if you expect to recoup a ton on the back half of the contract. Cost certainty is also worth something.

It's a lot more desireable than what is happening now. With Laine, I get the vibe he doesn't care about being in Winnipeg so that's another dimension to any potential deal.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Players are risk averse. If you gave Marner 90%+ of what he was asking for on an 8 year deal a year ago, he'd have taken it. All Toronto did by waiting is drive up the price and create a situation where Marner has all the leverage and can cause drama. Sometimes overpaying a bit up front is worth it if you expect to recoup a ton on the back half of the contract. Cost certainty is also worth something.

It's a lot more desireable than what is happening now. With Laine, I get the vibe he doesn't care about being in Winnipeg so that's another dimension to any potential deal.

They still had to wait some time before they could sign him to a new contract and by that time they could he already did well in the NHL and because of that he wanted to get payed a good amount.

 

[DREGER21]

I would prevent both sides from dragging out negotiations past day 1 of the regular season. If the RFA hasn’t signed by then.. they forfeit playing for the full season. If they hold out again in the following season... they forfeit the next 3 seasons. Not sure if this could be considered collusion by the GM’s.

 

[tealhockey]

Careful drafting?

 

[XX]

They still had to wait some time before they could sign him to a new contract and by that time they could he already did well in the NHL and because of that he wanted to get payed a good amount.

You can extend a player before an ELC is over.

I am saying that, coming off his 69 point season they should have put an 8 year deal on the table with a ton of money to see if he'd take it. Most players will, because that contract is guarenteed money and it's not worth it to risk an injury or a down year, however confident you are in yourself. They would have gotten him for $11m or less, for sure. Now Toronto is on its way to trading him or signing him to a short deal that isn't desireable, if they can even manage that.

All of this could have been avoided if they had the prescence of mind to offer him a surprisingly good contract a year ago.

 

[Ducks in a row]

You can extend a player before an ELC is over.

I am saying that, coming off his 69 point season they should have put an 8 year deal on the table with a ton of money to see if he'd take it. Most players will, because that contract is guarenteed money and it's not worth it to risk an injury or a down year, however confident you are in yourself. They would have gotten him for $11m or less, for sure. Now Toronto is on its way to trading him or signing him to a short deal that isn't desireable, if they can even manage that.

All of this could have been avoided if they had the prescence of mind to offer him a surprisingly good contract a year ago.

Yes but not until a certain point and by then the player could of played in the NHL doing great causing him to want to get pay a lot.

A player plays in the NHL does great wants to get payed a lot all a team can do is pay that amount or refuse. If player isn't happy by how much the team is willing to play you then have holdout situations.

 

[Chips]

If teams are visibly willing to play hardball with other players, then the next up won’t exactly feel sorry for fighting for the contract they feel they’ve earned.

Consistency in signing all their RFAs regardless of skill. Term should be the same, money proportional as possible.


More favorable conditions encouraging other teams to offersheet.

 

[Brownies]

It's already lead to difficult decisions. At the expense of their defense they chose to add an extraneous offensive player that lead them to the same seed and end playoff result that they had without him. The difference here is that if you trade Marner and keep Tavares, you're trading a guy who hasn't entered his prime and keeping a guy who will be out of his while Marner is squarely in his. It's not a good trade off.

Is it really what’s happening ? Tavares had a great season last year and they managed to get Barrie. They won’t simply lose Marner, if it happens. They’ll be able to get some help by trading him if they choose so.

 

[NiL8r87]

Which is fine, but then you don't also complain that you can't sign some other guy because you paid the elite talent. Make the choice, live with the consequence.

What do you mean? Assuming Marner gets paid what he’s worth then the Leafs can afford both.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Is it really what’s happening ? Tavares had a great season last year and they managed to get Barrie. They won’t simply lose Marner, if it happens. They’ll be able to get some help by trading him if they choose so.

Barrie isn't the answer to their defensive woes. But you completely missed the point of my previous post. Marner has way more prime years left in him than Tavares does.

 

[Sanchise90]

If teams are visibly willing to play hardball with other players, then the next up won’t exactly feel sorry for fighting for the contract they feel they’ve earned.

Consistency in signing all their RFAs regardless of skill. Term should be the same, money proportional as possible.


More favorable conditions encouraging other teams to offersheet.

I'd argue outside maybe of the 4 1sts, the conditions are already pretty favourable. But, even then, the type of player you offer sheet at the AAV of 4 1sts is probably worth more than 4 1sts truth be told.

It's more on GM's acting like absolute wusses not willing to offer sheet but perfectly willing to overpay UFA's and eat decline years.

 

[Sanchise90]

Not sure why teams would be interested in preventing themselves from having contract negotiations with premier young talent.
There is a hard cap, identify the players you feel are worthy of a substantial portion of it and pay them. Then proceed to fill out the remaining roster spots with the remaining cap space. The landscape is changing, adapt or be left behind.

This is 1000% the truth.

 

[Chips]

I'd argue outside maybe of the 4 1sts, the conditions are already pretty favourable. But, even then, the type of player you offer sheet at the AAV of 4 1sts is probably worth more than 4 1sts truth be told.

It's more on GM's acting like absolute wusses not willing to offer sheet but perfectly willing to overpay UFA's and eat decline years.

Those four 1sts represent potential talent to boost your team on much cheaper ELCs. Competitors often rely on having those players because they’re near the cap already with gaps in depth; teams are very reluctant to give them up, especially that many. To snatch away a top RFA you’re still going to have to pay close to the same UFA money so their team won’t match.

Might as well sign the UFA and have those 1sts turn into young talent to join the team while the UFA is still there.


Not to mention if even two of those firsts turn into good players, you can flip them for more than one player, possibly on better deals, than you would have signed to snag that single expensive RFA


The compensation is really high, solid attempts wouldn’t be so rare otherwise. It’s specifically designed to give the illusion of there being more “free agent” years than there really are to appease players who don’t want 5+ year ELCs.

The idea being to protect Owners’ shitty teams from losing young players, but of course every other team abuses it as well. Those teams can afford to pay RFAs proper value for their contributions (Panarin v Aho), as they should, but choose to play hardball with their overwhelming leverage, and use the money saved to grossly overpay said UFAs. Largely where that comes from.

 

[dlawong]

I agree giving plugs who are replacement level millions of dollars is bad, but who are some of these players?

Draft players with billionaire parents so money meant less to them but other things like fame and acceptance may meant more? Of course they need to be talented as well.

It is difficult to stop a talented player wanting the same as what someone else can get especially if he sees himself as talented and valuable as the next guy. Once the trend is set, it is not surprising to expect others to follow suite. Also it is not always about the players, but their agent & families whether they play the negotiation tactics aggressively.

NHL can control cost of young talents only if they increase the ELC contract years from 3 to 5 so the player will have to truly prove that they are worth those big RFA contract. The other thing they can do is merging some low market teams so there are more NHL players competing for jobs. It is all about market demand and supplies. Don't think this will happen though.

 

[Oddbob]

Players are risk averse. If you gave Marner 90%+ of what he was asking for on an 8 year deal a year ago, he'd have taken it. All Toronto did by waiting is drive up the price and create a situation where Marner has all the leverage and can cause drama. Sometimes overpaying a bit up front is worth it if you expect to recoup a ton on the back half of the contract. Cost certainty is also worth something.

It's a lot more desireable than what is happening now. With Laine, I get the vibe he doesn't care about being in Winnipeg so that's another dimension to any potential deal.

How do you know Toronto didn't make an offer early last year? Also, paying more upfront with the hope of the player earning it, can and has backfired dramatically in the past.

Answering the question at hand, I don't think you can prevent situations like this. It doesn't happen all that often that one team has 2 elite young guys who need to be paid big bucks, and paying one high dollars is inevitably going to lead to paying the other high as well. I think at most, Dubas could have played a little harder ball to get closer to 11 flat for Matthews, but who knows what was all done in negotiations.

 

[serp]

Have your management group build a fantastic relationship with the player and hope he and your GM come to an understanding early enough how the contract situation is handled ? I don't think its completely prevently . There's only so much you can do if the player / his agent and you are not on the same page .

 

[Cats2TheCup]

Don’t draft stars. Trade all your first round picks for third and fourth rounders. Then when you’re nowhere near the cap overpay for at least 3 of them when they’re free agents and build a super team.

 

[CountKong]

OP, this is the answer to your question. There are several stupid answers in this thread.

The days of overpaying old washed up UFA's going for their retirement contract are gone(as a Flames fan, I can relate to this because our current GM has done this), now you have to pay for your top RFA's because that where the money, the young players are better than ever, so you have to pay them, they are the one that are going to help you win, not Lucic, Eriksson, Ladd, etc.

Agreed! Having older, less productive players (sometimes dead weight) can be extremely demobilizing to a workforce. That being said, a certain amount of consistency should be shown before getting a huge payday (as in the case of Laine).