Horton vs Semin

[borro]

This "insight" from the guy who called Horton a "disappointment"

Homer alert.

Nothing to counter that argument? Maybe because you have nothing. Most picks taken out of the Top10 don't play their first year at all, forget playing on a first line AND producing. Show me how many played significant roles. If you understood why I feel he was a disappointment, maybe you could answer. Maybe it's just easier to make stupid jokes.

 

[borro]

IMO Horton will be the best player from his draft class. Better than Zherdev, better than Staal, and better than Fleury

So let's summmarize the PERFORMANCE (what has been shown) versus the bravado (which may or may not happen).

Semin plays 3 less games and equals Horton in scoring. Hmmm that looks like ADVANTAGE SEMIN

Semin doesn't even get ice time in early games because of other players. When he gets a chance he shows he is exceptionally creative. ADVANTAGE SEMIN

Semin follows this up scoring at a point a game clip in RUSSIA. A league noted for defense. ADVANTAGE SEMIN

So do I say this means Semin will outperform Horton in the long run? Well, let's just say he is doing it so far.

 

[Genghis Keon]

Nothing to counter that argument? Maybe because you have nothing. Most picks taken out of the Top10 don't play their first year at all, forget playing on a first line AND producing. Show me how many played significant roles. If you understood why I feel he was a disappointment, maybe you could answer. Maybe it's just easier to make stupid jokes.

Semin was drafted in 2002. Horton was drafted in 2003.

 

[Sammy*]

Nothing to counter that argument? Maybe because you have nothing. Most picks taken out of the Top10 don't play their first year at all, forget playing on a first line AND producing. Show me how many played significant roles. If you understood why I feel he was a disappointment, maybe you could answer. Maybe it's just easier to make stupid jokes.

Cause your points were frankly stupid. The statistical difference between the two is insignifigant. You were the guy saying " Semin. He has already shown he can produce at the NHl level. Horton has not. He has seemed to be a disappointment.". That statement is ridiculous (given they produced virtually the same) & by itself shows that you really dont have much of a grasp of the issue & were just been a homer.
And by the way, who exactly was Horton playing with on that offensive juggernaught that was so superior to who Semin played with?

 

[borro]

Semin was drafted in 2002. Horton was drafted in 2003.

The comparison is on what expectations should be. A guy drafted Top 5 should outperform a guy drafted Top 15.

 

[andora]

The comparison is on what expectations should be. A guy drafted Top 5 should outperform a guy drafted Top 15.

what hitting more.. if horton hit more does that mean he outperformed him? or how about how many times he drove to the net and crashed the crease to set up chances...

jeez.. i think you're being a tad anal here, hell just be happy these two are contributing to their teams so quick after being drafted

 

[borro]

Cause your points were frankly stupid. The statistical difference between the two is insignifigant. You were the guy saying " Semin. He has already shown he can produce at the NHl level. Horton has not. He has seemed to be a disappointment.". That statement is ridiculous (given they produced virtually the same) & by itself shows that you really dont have much of a grasp of the issue & were just been a homer.
And by the way, who exactly was Horton playing with on that offensive juggernaught that was so superior to who Semin played with?

If the performance is "statistically insignificant" then how can one be viewed as far more potential? You choose to only look at one side of the question. Getting hurt alot can also factor into a players value and potential. That was not even mentioned. You were the homer by refusing upon challenge to produce ANY evidence that Horton will be better. "Where's the Beef?" If it is so obvious you should have something to show me.

Maybe you feel Junior stats comparing to someone for a Russian league are fair comparisons. Wouldn't be a fair comparison but I'm sure you'd call it irrefutable. In the only level field, Semin outproduced him. The significance is, arguably he had more weapons to work with. Who would you rather have from an offensive standpoint: Jokinen or Halpern? Bouwmeester or Boumedienne. Semin's production given his environment is at LEAST the equal of Horton's. So where is this great gap?

 

[Sammy*]

Horton is a top5 pick and Semin was not even picked top 10 and they have almost equal production. Advantage Semin
Only you know what in gods name this has to do with who will be better in a few years.

Semin plays on a first line against first line competition. Horton does not: Advantage Semin.
How you know this is anyones guess , but even if true, likely works to Semins advantage
Horton plays more games-doesn't get more points. Advantage Semin
Statistically insignifigant.

The teammates Semin plays with are a stripped down version and he has little talent with him. Advantage Semin.
Please enlighten us all on the great offensive talent who Horton was playing with.

Semin doesn't even get ice time in early games because of other players.
I have always thought a "1st liner" gets 1st line ice time. Furthurmore, beyond your bald face statements of fact, do you have anything to back this up or to say Horton does get "1st line ice time or getys on the ice early?

 

[borro]

The teammates Semin plays with are a stripped down version and he has little talent with him. Advantage Semin.
Please enlighten us all on the great offensive talent who Horton was playing with.

Semin doesn't even get ice time in early games because of other players.
I have always thought a "1st liner" gets 1st line ice time. Furthurmore, beyond your bald face statements of fact, do you have anything to back this up or to say Horton does get "1st line ice time or getys on the ice early?[/QUOTE]

Semin played most of his minutes after the talent (Jagr, Lang etc) were traded away. The significance is facing a teams top checking line versus not facing it. Semin played 1st line after this and excelled. Caps fans feel he may have doubled his point total had he got that time all year.

 

[borro]

Horton is a top5 pick and Semin was not even picked top 10 and they have almost equal production. Advantage Semin
Only you know what in gods name this has to do with who will be better in a few years.

Semin plays on a first line against first line competition. Horton does not: Advantage Semin.
How you know this is anyones guess , but even if true, likely works to Semins advantage
Horton plays more games-doesn't get more points. Advantage Semin
Statistically insignifigant.

The teammates Semin plays with are a stripped down version and he has little talent with him. Advantage Semin.
Please enlighten us all on the great offensive talent who Horton was playing with.

Semin doesn't even get ice time in early games because of other players.
I have always thought a "1st liner" gets 1st line ice time. Furthurmore, beyond your bald face statements of fact, do you have anything to back this up or to say Horton does get "1st line ice time or getys on the ice early?

You have yet to produce ANY evidence of this tremendous gap between Horton and Semin. When you find some, let me know Homer.

 

[Captain Conservative]

As a caps fan, heres how I break it down:

Semin clearly has the advantage in offensive upside, and Horton has had some injury problems, which detract from his value. Horton is more of a lock to reach his potential and be an NHL regular because his game is more well rounded right now. This is in spite of the fact that he was drafted a year before Semin. I also think that Horton has a better attitude and will be more of a team leader. Personally, i'd rather have Horton, but it is close.

 

[Sammy*]

If the performance is "statistically insignificant" then how can one be viewed as far more potential? You choose to only look at one side of the question. Getting hurt alot can also factor into a players value and potential. That was not even mentioned. You were the homer by refusing upon challenge to produce ANY evidence that Horton will be better. "Where's the Beef?" If it is so obvious you should have something to show me.

Maybe you feel Junior stats comparing to someone for a Russian league are fair comparisons. Wouldn't be a fair comparison but I'm sure you'd call it irrefutable. In the only level field, Semin outproduced him. The significance is, arguably he had more weapons to work with. Who would you rather have from an offensive standpoint: Jokinen or Halpern? Bouwmeester or Boumedienne. Semin's production given his environment is at LEAST the equal of Horton's. So where is this great gap?

The gap imo is in where you project the 2 out to, not where they are today.
Ya see, the question was not ''who had a better year?' (about equal) the question was " Who will be the best player in few years?".
I take it you would have got rid of Thornton after his rookie year cause he didnt light it up?
And by the way, lighting it up in the Russian league is by no means a real good indicator of who will produce real well at the NHL level.

 

[borro]

The gap imo is in where you project the 2 out to, not where they are today.
Ya see, the question was not ''who had a better year?' (about equal) the question was " Who will be the best player in few years?".
I take it you would have got rid of Thornton after his rookie year cause he didnt light it up?
And by the way, lighting it up in the Russian league is by no means a real good indicator of who will produce real well at the NHL level.

So it should be held against him? This is much closer than people think, that's all I'm saying.

 

[andora]

You have yet to produce ANY evidence of this tremendous gap between Horton and Semin. When you find some, let me know Homer.

so evidence with the strength of cheap yarn is better?

 

[Sammy*]

You have yet to produce ANY evidence of this tremendous gap between Horton and Semin. When you find some, let me know Homer.

Bigger, stronger, tougher by alot. About equal in skating ability.
In short, for about the same reasons the scouts had Horton rated as a very very high pick in a very deep draft & Semin was not rated near nor drafted as high in a way weaker draft.
IMO, not much has changed.
And btw, not a fan of either, merely like to point out homer statements when I see them.

" Semin. He has already shown he can produce at the NHl level. Horton has not. He has seemed to be a disappointment.".

 

[borro]

Bigger, stronger, tougher by alot. About equal in skating ability.
In short, for about the same reasons the scouts had Horton rated as a very very high pick in a very deep draft & Semin was not rated near nor drafted as high in a way weaker draft.
IMO, not much has changed.
And btw, not a fan of either, merely like to point out homer statements when I see them.

" Semin. He has already shown he can produce at the NHl level. Horton has not. He has seemed to be a disappointment.".

So is Georges Laracque better than him? He's tougher and stronger by alot. It's an apples and oranges comparison. Doesn't make Semin's far superior puckhandling skills meaningless. Those are largely opinion. Maybe you could use a stats like hits. Semin is no shrinking violet though. He has a mean streak. No he's not a power forward. He's not weak either.

 

[borro]

so evidence with the strength of cheap yarn is better?

Some evidence?

You find it insignificant that he performed on a 1st line vs 1st line checking?

You find it insigificant that he played first year after signing while most don't?

You find it insignificant that his numbers outpaced phenom in less minutes?

You find it insignificant that he is performing like a man in the RSL?

Just what do you find significant? You want him to beat the tar out of Gomez?

 

[Atlas]

Semin is a wildcard. He might be a superstar or he might fizzle out entirely. It will depend on what kind of character he has.

Horton could be just as dominant and is less likely to fizzle out.


No clear winner on this one.

 

[andora]

Some evidence?

You find it insignificant that he performed on a 1st line vs 1st line checking?

You find it insigificant that he played first year after signing while most don't?

You find it insignificant that his numbers outpaced phenom in less minutes?

You find it insignificant that he is performing like a man in the RSL?

Just what do you find significant? You want him to beat the tar out of Gomez?

on your first point, i could question this. you said somewhere in this thread that semin was forced to play with dripped down talent beside him. if this so called dripped down talent is your first line, how can you be so sure the other team is putting their best line.. check that, their best checking line against it all the time.. also, how are you so sure that every team washington played with semin on this supposed first line matched lines, making sure semin received this deadly first line checking every minute of every shift of every game... i'd like to see the website that keeps ice matchup stats that intense (honestly if there is one i digress and would love to read it)

on your second point, no of course i don't find that insignificant.. WHAT I WAS IMPLYING was that you spouted off a bunch of sentences with an assertive tone that elevated semin high above horton, while also somehow dismissing the fact that horton has close to the same stats in similar games played.. it's great that he performed really well for half the season, and he's going to be a really good player i have no doubt..

i don't understant the third one, the phenom part. is horton supposed to be the phenom ?

your fourth, well, all i'll say is if you look down the list at the scorers over in that league, you'll find some interesting names leading their teams, and surprising names not even close to leading their teams... good for him though, he's playing well

your last sentence, what ?

 

[turnbuckle*]

That's a tough question. a Tim Horton double double, or pulling the pud.

I'm not a coffee drinker, so.....

 

[Chris]

Horton wins all in the end.

 

[Til the End of Time]

First off, I would like to know how you orginally considered Horton a disappointment, but Semin was not when they had the exact same amount of points? If your reasoning is that Semin played in three less games than Horton, your arguement is ridiculous to begin with.

Semin. He has already shown he can produce at the NHl level. Horton has not.

Horton is a top5 pick and Semin was not even picked top 10 and they have almost equal production. Advantage Semin

I don't understand this. Semin has shown he can produce at the NHL, while Horton hasn't. But now they have almost equal production? Sounds like you are contradicting yourself.

I personally expect a Top5 pick to play the year he is drafted with the possible exception of a goaltender and maybe dman. I consider it a disappointment if they dont.

Horton ... has seemed to be a disappointment.

If a forward is picked in the top five and doesn't play, then you consider him a dissapointment. Yet Horton did play and produce, but you somehow still consider him a disappointment? Again, contradicting yourself.

Most picks taken out of the Top10 don't play their first year at all, forget playing on a first line AND producing. Show me how many played significant roles.

I assume you are referring to Semin here, and as others have pointed out, he didn't play in the NHL they year he was drafted. Not only do you know nothing about Horton, but it seems your knowledge of Semin is limited as well. If you weren't referring to Semin, then what the heck were you talking about?

I chose Horton over Semin by a considerable margin for several reasons. Horton has an outstanding offensive game, which is probably similar to Semin's. However, Horton also excels in the physical aspects of the game, which Semin does not. Horton also has been known for his leadership qualities. Semin has not. Basically Horton possesses a strong all around game.

The only thing Semin might have over him would be pure offensive ability, but even that is not certain. Otherwise Horton is superior to Semin in all aspects of the game.

I am neither a Panther's fan, as you suggested, nor a Cap's fan. I have no bias against either of these players. But when I see someone blatantly being a homer, it needs to be pointed out.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

what hitting more.. if horton hit more does that mean he outperformed him? or how about how many times he drove to the net and crashed the crease to set up chances...

jeez.. i think you're being a tad anal here, hell just be happy these two are contributing to their teams so quick after being drafted

A tad? He's acting like someone beat the **** out of his mom when he was tied to a chair with electric tape with his eyes propped open.

 

[Winston Wolf]

Semin plays 3 less games and equals Horton in scoring. Hmmm that looks like ADVANTAGE SEMIN

Hmmm, that looks like insignificant horse****. Just like draft positions, as it means absolutely nothing now as we're comparing players, not where they were drafted.

Semin doesn't even get ice time in early games because of other players. When he gets a chance he shows he is exceptionally creative. ADVANTAGE SEMIN

Could the exact same not be said for Horton? Yes, of course it could.

Semin follows this up scoring at a point a game clip in RUSSIA. A league noted for defense. ADVANTAGE SEMIN

Considering Horton's not playing in the RSL they obviously can't be accurately compared, but it's no surprise to see you give the advantage to Semin.

I also suggest you check each player's game logs as it shows Semin benefitted from Jagr, Lang, Bondra, and Gonchar far more than Horton did from any of Florida's top players. ADVANTAGE HORTON :lol

 

[CanoeRider]

That's a tough question. a Tim Horton double double, or pulling the pud.

I'm not a coffee drinker, so.....

haha make me laugh :lol