Horton vs Semin

[Levitate]

You haven't acknowledged that Semin would have doubled or more his stats had he got that playing time early. I trust your Horton facts. Your Semin facts are way off.

same might be said for horton though...what if he started off with 1st line icetime? didn't get injured? what if what if what if?

they're both good players, i'd probably take horton personally, but i think in the end we're just getting a lot of people sucking up to their teams prospects

 

[Amen evil king]

So there is no chance Semin impressed and was given more playing time?

Of course he impressed, he had a good rookie season. What people are saying here is that he really had no competition for that icetime, he was almost guaranteed 1st PP icetime after the firesale since he was one of the only threats on the whole team. Semin got more icetime, and not surprisingly his production increased because of it. Jeff Halpern put up a point per game after the allstar break; see what a bit of guaranteed icetime can do for you point totals?

I said that I hadn't seen him when I watched the Panthers.

Ahh, so you are trying to argue potential based entirely on a player first year numbers?

Well, here's a little example for you. Joe Thornton was drafted in 1997, and immediately made the lineup ala Nathan Horton. Thornton only got 7 points that season. Jan Bulis got drafted a year earlier ('96), had a year to develop (like Semin..), and then entered the NHL in the same year Thornton did. Jan Bulis put up over twice as many points as Thornton in less games. Using your logic, after their first seasons you would be saying Jan Bulis is twice the player Thornton is and ever will be. See how ridiculous that sounds?

Meanwhile Semin is putting up big numbers game after game in the RSL means NOTHING? I guess this means you're in denial of that because you haven't acknowlwedged/admitted this.

Sure, its pretty outstanding what he's doing over there. But there are countless examples of how scoring in the RSL doesn't translate into NHL success, and vice versa.

You haven't acknowledged the correctness of even stats for a player drafted 10 picks earlier is a disappointment (not to mention the 3 games you had on him).

I have to ask here - you do know that Horton was drafted a year later right? That he's a year younger? I think many people would be saying 'Advantage Horton' that he equaled the production of a former top-15 pick who was a year older.

You haven't acknowledged that Semin would have doubled or more his stats had he got that playing time early. I trust your Horton facts. Your Semin facts are way off.

You haven't acknowledged that Semin picked up nearly half of his points with Bondra, Jagr, Lang and Gonchar, despite all your claims otherwise. Nobody has and nobody will acknowledge that 'Semin would have doubled or more his stats had he got that playing time early' because its such a wild unsubstantiated claim. His production didn't increase that much after the fire sale, definitely not enough to claim (with a straight face at least) that Semin would have doubled his points.

You've told us that you've never seen Horton play, and are judging him only on the stats he put up as an 18 year old in the NHL. I really don't think there is anything more that needs to be said.

 

[borro]

Man, you just keep making yourself look worse. Biggest.Homer.Ever.

You are obviously a waste to talk to...When you learn to listen a tiny bit let me know.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

You are obviously a waste to talk to...When you learn to listen a tiny bit let me know.

When you can admit that 10 of his points came from the stars before they were traded, let everyone else know. Just one shy of half his points came from playing with Lang, Jagr, Bondra, Gonchar, & Nylander. And 12 of his points came on the PP, more than half...but just 7 of those PP points came after the firesale occurred (assisting on 3 of Halpern's goals and one goal assisted by Halpern). Semin no matter how you slice it benefitted from those superstars before they left. Now you can go check out Horton's stats and I'd like to see those "superstars" he was playing with.

 

[Chimaera]

When you can admit that 10 of his points came from the stars before they were traded, let everyone else know. Just one shy of half his points came from playing with Lang, Jagr, Bondra, Gonchar, & Nylander. And 12 of his points came on the PP, more than half...but just 7 of those PP points came after the firesale occurred (assisting on 3 of Halpern's goals and one goal assisted by Halpern). Semin no matter how you slice it benefitted from those superstars before they left. Now you can go check out Horton's stats and I'd like to see those "superstars" he was playing with.

I'm going to have to jump in here.... While I do agree that borro consistently stuffs his foot in his mouth, as he has done here. You're taking this "Benefitted" from stars thing too far. For one thing, did you even watch any of those games? The stat sheet can say a lot, but it is just paper. While he did "help" from having good players on his team, those points aren't just handed out by the other players. I mean, he still has to be able to finish or setup the play for the others to assist. It's not like he just happened to be on the ice and got those points. And so Horton didn't play with talented linemates for the majority of his time, what's that saying? Is that saying he didn't have any chemistry with Jokinnen, or Valeri Bure, or Kozlov? Maybe the coach felt he wasn't "talented enough" to play with those players with some obvious offensive success. See where I'm going? I'm not suggesting that (because I don't think that's the case), but If anything, Horton not being on a line with those players is going to benefit (there's that word again) from not facing the top checking line or the top defensive pair, since they are going to go after the proven scorers. Like Semin did some of the year (read about 1/3rd to a 1/2), and like in my opinion Horton did most of the year (read about 3/4ths), until teams realized he was a decent threat in himself.

And your powerplay thing is a load as well. Did you even watch the Capitals powerplay at the end of the year? The whole powerplay was all Semin. All Semin, with a little Halpern running interference up front. He was creating, setting up, and running the whole thing. He probably should have had at least 10-15 more points if any of the players on his line had any finish whatsoever. See, Semin was looking for others to get things done by constantly making nice setups and passes, but his linemates did not have enough finish to do the job.

Oh, and on your note, Nylander was injured for most of last year, at least while he was there. Semin was on Jagr's line a total of maybe 3-4 games tops. Bondra played on his line a few times, but not a whole lot either. And yes, Gonchar was out there. But he wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire either.

Look, here's all I'm saying. Your opinion that Semin didn't earn all his points is garbage. Yes, he had a decent number of games where he played with some talented players. So did Horton if you want to make that claim. However, playing with talent does not mean the NHL automatically gives you a few goals here and there to pad your stats. You still have to earn the points.


The basis of this whole thread is stupid. It's apples and oranges. A power forward with a solid 2 way game, versus a flashy playmaking sniper. Both are talented, and both are going to be good. It's a pick your poison type of thing.

And borro generally puts his foot in his mouth. Just lay off him. Especially if you want to follow his own shoddy line of argument. It just makes you look bad as well.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

I'm going to have to jump in here.... While I do agree that borro consistently stuffs his foot in his mouth, as he has done here. You're taking this "Benefitted" from stars thing too far. For one thing, did you even watch any of those games? The stat sheet can say a lot, but it is just paper. While he did "help" from having good players on his team, those points aren't just handed out by the other players. I mean, he still has to be able to finish or setup the play for the others to assist. It's not like he just happened to be on the ice and got those points. And so Horton didn't play with talented linemates for the majority of his time, what's that saying? Is that saying he didn't have any chemistry with Jokinnen, or Valeri Bure, or Kozlov? Maybe the coach felt he wasn't "talented enough" to play with those players with some obvious offensive success. See where I'm going? I'm not suggesting that (because I don't think that's the case), but If anything, Horton not being on a line with those players is going to benefit (there's that word again) from not facing the top checking line or the top defensive pair, since they are going to go after the proven scorers. Like Semin did some of the year (read about 1/3rd to a 1/2), and like in my opinion Horton did most of the year (read about 3/4ths), until teams realized he was a decent threat in himself.

And your powerplay thing is a load as well. Did you even watch the Capitals powerplay at the end of the year? The whole powerplay was all Semin. All Semin, with a little Halpern running interference up front. He was creating, setting up, and running the whole thing. He probably should have had at least 10-15 more points if any of the players on his line had any finish whatsoever. See, Semin was looking for others to get things done by constantly making nice setups and passes, but his linemates did not have enough finish to do the job.

Oh, and on your note, Nylander was injured for most of last year, at least while he was there. Semin was on Jagr's line a total of maybe 3-4 games tops. Bondra played on his line a few times, but not a whole lot either. And yes, Gonchar was out there. But he wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire either.

Look, here's all I'm saying. Your opinion that Semin didn't earn all his points is garbage. Yes, he had a decent number of games where he played with some talented players. So did Horton if you want to make that claim. However, playing with talent does not mean the NHL automatically gives you a few goals here and there to pad your stats. You still have to earn the points.


The basis of this whole thread is stupid. It's apples and oranges. A power forward with a solid 2 way game, versus a flashy playmaking sniper. Both are talented, and both are going to be good. It's a pick your poison type of thing.

And borro generally puts his foot in his mouth. Just lay off him. Especially if you want to follow his own shoddy line of argument. It just makes you look bad as well.

I went thru the gamelog to check his stats in every game he(Semin) had points. The only point I was making (and I never said he didn't earn those points at all) was that he got almost half his points playing on lines (mostly PP) with superstar players (and I believe there was a goal that he either assisted on or Nylander assisted on before he was traded). I'm sure the kid has talent...not questioning that...but borro stated that Semin didn't play with those players when he actually did. Borro admitted himself that he never saw Horton last season and he made this statement that Horton was a disappointment. I admit that I didn't see Semin that much and wasn't saying anything against him as a player. Just refuting the point that Semin did play with those players. It is a preference thing and you can't really compare the 2 players.

 

[PanthersRule96]

same might be said for horton though...what if he started off with 1st line icetime? didn't get injured? what if what if what if?

they're both good players, i'd probably take horton personally, but i think in the end we're just getting a lot of people sucking up to their teams prospects

IMO, with the type of game both of these play and how Semin was a LOT more ready for the NHL with prep in the RSL AND being a year older, Semin would've produced more than Horton if thye were both put on a line with Superstars. Put Horton with Lang and Jagr and I bet money that he would produce less than Semin would on that line at the beginning of the year. Horton was not worthy of first line or even second line icetime at the beginning of the year. He hit probably 20 posts this year plus his 14 goals and was so close to scoring earlier in the year but was not adjusted to the increased speed in the NHL. Semin is a scorer, but as Horton developed, IMO you would've seen a shift. Sure, Semin started the year out well and had a decent season but slightly tailed off like all other caps at the end of the year. Horton, OTOH, went from a slow start or adjustment period, to being the best player on the panther team. That says SOMETHING at least as there was Jokinen, still Marcus Nilson, Val Bure (he was as good as Horton when Horton was on fire) and Kozlov. Who did the Caps have, Halpern, who else??? Was there anyone else on the Capitols after the firesale???? Exactly. MAybe a good dman in Witt but that's it. Horton outperformed all of those panther players before the season ended. 3 of the four have been NHL allstars while the other is an experienced player who produced a decent point total. Regardless, no matter how you look at it, I'd rather have a player improve and have low stats and finish the year awesomely than have a good point total and not improve like the other did. (semin did really improve, but Horton was unreal on his tear.)

 

[Chimaera]

IMO, with the type of game both of these play and how Semin was a LOT more ready for the NHL with prep in the RSL AND being a year older, Semin would've produced more than Horton if thye were both put on a line with Superstars. Put Horton with Lang and Jagr and I bet money that he would produce less than Semin would on that line at the beginning of the year. Horton was not worthy of first line or even second line icetime at the beginning of the year. He hit probably 20 posts this year plus his 14 goals and was so close to scoring earlier in the year but was not adjusted to the increased speed in the NHL. Semin is a scorer, but as Horton developed, IMO you would've seen a shift. Sure, Semin started the year out well and had a decent season but slightly tailed off like all other caps at the end of the year. Horton, OTOH, went from a slow start or adjustment period, to being the best player on the panther team. That says SOMETHING at least as there was Jokinen, still Marcus Nilson, Val Bure (he was as good as Horton when Horton was on fire) and Kozlov. Who did the Caps have, Halpern, who else??? Was there anyone else on the Capitols after the firesale???? Exactly. MAybe a good dman in Witt but that's it. Horton outperformed all of those panther players before the season ended. 3 of the four have been NHL allstars while the other is an experienced player who produced a decent point total. Regardless, no matter how you look at it, I'd rather have a player improve and have low stats and finish the year awesomely than have a good point total and not improve like the other did. (semin did really improve, but Horton was unreal on his tear.)

Not to nit-pick, but Semin got better as the season went on. Most people would agree with that.

 

[Ponik]

Semin

 

[borro]

I went thru the gamelog to check his stats in every game he(Semin) had points. The only point I was making (and I never said he didn't earn those points at all) was that he got almost half his points playing on lines (mostly PP) with superstar players (and I believe there was a goal that he either assisted on or Nylander assisted on before he was traded). I'm sure the kid has talent...not questioning that...but borro stated that Semin didn't play with those players when he actually did. Borro admitted himself that he never saw Horton last season and he made this statement that Horton was a disappointment. I admit that I didn't see Semin that much and wasn't saying anything against him as a player. Just refuting the point that Semin did play with those players. It is a preference thing and you can't really compare the 2 players.

Just to clarify here...Borro said his ice time was limited earlier in the year. That is fact. I never said he didn't benefit some from playing on those lines. Is Jagr and Lang and Nylander helping him in the RSL? No. He is still on fire. I simply refuted the claim that Horton did not have better linemates. I still believe that taking the season as a whole, he did. Somehow Semin's points are meaningless and Horton's are better. As Chimera is getting at, you still have to make the pass or score the goal.