Post-Game Talk: Holland shits out his mouth.

[Stoneman89]

Holland won a cup in the Salary Cap Era. Not sure what people are on about stating the contrary.

True, missed that one. On the fumes from the last of the great players he had. But you have to admit, during the majority of his great success, he had an unlimited budget.

 

[Louis Cypher]

with 20% salary rollback in 2005.... It was all based on "Pre-cap riches"
It just didn't catch up to him by 2008 yet and he had Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom in their primes still...

Makes sense?

Yeah he won a cup in the cap Era. Makes sense?

 

[Oilhawks]

True, missed that one. A leftover from the last of the great players he had. But you have to admit, during the majority of his great success, he had an unlimited budget.

I’m pretty sure he had to do some work to get them cap compliant. I don’t know about the details though, someone like @Pizza!Pizza! would know

 

[Louis Cypher]

True, missed that one. A leftover from the last of the great players he had. But you have to admit, during the majority of his great success, he had an unlimited budget.

So did everyone else. How many cups did Philly win with their insane budget. Many other teams too spent crazy but didn't win shit.

 

[Stoneman89]

So did everyone else. How many cups did Philly win with their insane budget. Many other teams too spent crazy but didn't win shit.

I never said or insinuated that he didn't do a good job while he had that budget, or that other teams did a great job with massive dollars available. My point was he had the majority of his success while with a huge budget. I'm not sure how that can be argued.

 

[StargateSG1]

Yeah he won a cup in the cap Era. Makes sense?

You go with that... Good Luck! LOL

 

[Stoneman89]

I’m pretty sure he had to do some work to get them cap compliant. I don’t know about the details though, someone like @Pizza!Pizza! would know

I'm sure he did too, but a wonderful core was still left to give him one more cup and some success thereafter, riding HOFer Nick Lidstrom, Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsuyk..

 

[CycloneSweep]

So did everyone else. How many cups did Philly win with their insane budget. Many other teams too spent crazy but didn't win shit.

He was gifted the majority of his roster and pretty much the only thing he had to do was keep them.

Holland has never built a team, just sustained a good one. Prolonged a rebuild and did a ton of things that are still hurting the Red Wings today.

 

[Louis Cypher]

You go with that... Good Luck! LOL

I guess it doesn't fit your narative so let's dismiss that cup win. LOL

 

[Louis Cypher]

He was gifted the majority of his roster and pretty much the only thing he had to do was keep them.

Holland has never built a team, just sustained a good one. Prolonged a rebuild and did a ton of things that are still hurting the Red Wings today.

Ok whatever you say.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Ok whatever you say.

It’s true though? He was given mostly a complete roster, nailed a late draft pick and then kept resigning the same guys. In the later years he signed constant terrible contracts and terrible trades that are still hurting Detroit now. Go ask Detroit fans they will tell you the same thing.

 

[Oilhawks]

I'm sure he did too, but a wonderful core was still left to give him one more cup and some success thereafter, riding HOFer Nick Lidstrom, Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsuyk..

Yeah, like most GMs that win a Cup (or 3, in his case), he had some HOF players on his team

 

[Stoneman89]

Ok whatever you say.

Good comeback.

 

[Yak]

he's in no way owning this, keeps going on about his Detroit day's and how trades are hawd. The entire old boys club have no shame.

Not saying he said he is owning but his denial about the coach and goaltending and trades just shows how out of touch he is with reality. Because of that this season is all on him and if this seasons blows up it should be his head on the chopping block.

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

True, missed that one. On the fumes from the last of the great players he had. But you have to admit, during the majority of his great success, he had an unlimited budget.

I’m pretty sure he had to do some work to get them cap compliant. I don’t know about the details though, someone like @Pizza!Pizza! would know

He did have to make a bunch of adjustments, its one of the main reasons they let Cujo go and kept that worthless Manny Legace around. There were a few players that had to be sold off - he was going to get rid of even more to make room for Fedorov but when Sergei didn't immediately commit to the more than fair offer KH gave him they cut him instead.

As for the unlimited budget thing, thats not 100% true. Mike Illich put a lot of money into the Wings but IIRC only 2 seasons of the MI era were they the highest paid team in the league, 01-04. Even in 01/02 they had 5 players defer money just so the team could sign Brett Hull. Prior to the back to back cup wins the team was not that expensive, but Mr. I was really good about re-investing in a winning team. None of the current Red Wing 'fans' complaining about 'being in a tough spot because no good draft position for many years' were bitching when the team was winning and perennial playoff contender. Remember the 'Dead Things' were garbage until Illich bought them (1983) and Ken Holland was the head scout that helped build them into a contender until he became the GM in 97 and maintained that team and won 4 cups out of 5 finals appearances. Red Wings had a conference finals run in the late 80s and were a contender from 1993-2010 and continued making the playoffs for several years after that. Holland isnt young enough to achieve that same level of success with EDM, but if any GM in this league has a chance at getting the Oiler's dumpster fire under control it's him.

I'll go even further and point out that the Wings may have been a contender a few years earlier if Devellano hadn't been so keen on trading away the young talent Holland was scouting/drafting (Oates, Graves, Murphy, Klima) for one season of Bernie Federko and four years of ~50pt Jimmy Carson. In fact if you look through Devellano's trade history as a GM (History of hockey trades by general manager Jim Devellano - NHL Trade Tracker) you'll see how bad he was at trades compared to Holland who actually won a few (History of hockey trades by general manager Ken Holland - NHL Trade Tracker).

 

[Oilhawks]

He did have to make a bunch of adjustments, its one of the main reasons they let Cujo go and kept that worthless Manny Legace around. There were a few players that had to be sold off - he was going to get rid of even more to make room for Fedorov but when Sergei didn't immediately commit to the more than fair offer KH gave him they cut him instead.

As for the unlimited budget thing, thats not 100% true. Mike Illich put a lot of money into the Wings but IIRC only 2 seasons of the MI era were they the highest paid team in the league, 01-04. Even in 01/02 they had 5 players defer money just so the team could sign Brett Hull. Prior to the back to back cup wins the team was not that expensive, but Mr. I was really good about re-investing in a winning team. None of the current Red Wing 'fans' complaining about 'being in a tough spot because no good draft position for many years' were bitching when the team was winning and perennial playoff contender. Remember the 'Dead Things' were garbage until Illich bought them (1983) and Ken Holland was the head scout that helped build them into a contender until he became the GM in 97 and maintained that team and won 4 cups out of 5 finals appearances. Red Wings had a conference finals run in the late 80s and were a contender from 1993-2010 and continued making the playoffs for several years after that. Holland isnt young enough to achieve that same level of success with EDM, but if any GM in this league has a chance at getting the Oiler's dumpster fire under control it's him.

I'll go even further and point out that the Wings may have been a contender a few years earlier if Devellano hadn't been so keen on trading away the young talent Holland was scouting/drafting (Oates, Graves, Murphy, Klima) for one season of Bernie Federko and four years of ~50pt Jimmy Carson. In fact if you look through Devellano's trade history as a GM (History of hockey trades by general manager Jim Devellano - NHL Trade Tracker) you'll see how bad he was at trades compared to Holland who actually won a few (History of hockey trades by general manager Ken Holland - NHL Trade Tracker).

Interesting, much appreciated! I’d toss you a like if I could

 

[SwedishFire]

That's the third time a fan base has thought this.. leafs then avs.. now us.

Then it probably is very fragile confidence

 

[SwedishFire]

Barrie can't skate worth shit, that's half the problem. I don't know if he's lost a step, is out of shape, or a combination of both, but he's slow and has trouble pivoting when skating backwards. He gets turnstiled constantly from the outside.

His decision making has also slowed down and I'm not sure if I'd even qualify him as a good puck mover anymore. He's ok from the offensive blue line in, but that's really it. They badly need to dump him before the rest of the league knows that he now definitively sucks and he becomes unmovable.

Oh. This sounds all to true. I was suspecting he was a one trick pony and really he is. He fills in elite offense when a team has a major need for it, and that blinding everyone.

Yes, if so, oilers should trade him for anothrr need.

 

[29Beast97Mode]

 

[foshizzle]

Now imagine if Chiarelli had done his job. Imagine this teams depth had he not traded:

• First round and high 2nd round pick for Reinhart -> lost in expansion draft for nothing
• Ryan Strome for Spooner -> Gagner -> turned into nothing
• Justin Schultz for 3rd round pick lottery ticket -> long cook hopeful Filip Berglund
• Caggiulia for Manning -> turned into nothing
• Patrick Maroon ->Joey Dudek + 3rd round pick -> turned into nothing

Out the door went a bonafide top nine centre/forward (Strome); big physical forward (Maroon); a fourth line player (Cagiulia); a third/second pairing puck moving d (Schultz). And cherry first round player and high second round prospect depth that quite likely is delivering solid NHL depth right now (and best case scenario had plugged a top six forward hole).

Chiarelli built on past rebuild failures that failed in the amateur draft to find quality NHL roster talent beyond cherry elite first round picks dealt high quality prime NHL players like Petry and Cogliano for middling lottery tickets which carry low likelihood of ever delivering NHL talent the likes of Petry or Cogliano and in the hands of incompetent organizational eyes turns into nothing burgers.

The old Newton adage comes to mind "I stand on the shoulders of giants". Though in the Oilers case Holland's standing on a decade and a half of incompetent management that carved out high potential through the earned draft failure position and turned this into an expensive, shitty bottom ten team when he arrived. Holland's compounded the problem with mediocre trades but the deck Chiarelli was given and squandered is truly epic. His starting point was drafting McDavid and two elite picks through which to build this team's foundation. But in fairness also digging out from past organization incompetence too.

Im
Not arguing that Chiarelli was an incredibly shitty GM- Holland has managed to top him. All of the success the Oilers have had over the past 2 years have been off players from Chiarelli. Holland is destroying this team

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Im
Not arguing that Chiarelli was an incredibly shitty GM- Holland has managed to top him. All of the success the Oilers have had over the past 2 years have been off players from Chiarelli. Holland is destroying this team

Nah. Chiarelli blasted this team back to the Stone Age by the time they took away his keys. Holland may be running in spot with his off-season work and poor trades but there's two years of progressive improvement with players from all past poor management maturing into peak years core players. Chiarelli's mess hollowed out the NHL roster that left holes everywhere and no quality depth.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Nah. Chiarelli blasted this team back to the Stone Age by the time they took away his keys. Holland may be running in spot with his off-season work and poor trades but there's two years of progressive improvement with players from all past poor management maturing into peak years core players. Chiarelli's mess hollowed out the NHL roster that left holes everywhere and no quality depth.

Holland has done nothing to fix the team and has outright ignored obvious holes like goaltending. It would be hard to do a worse job than he has done. And now he is doubling down on the do nothing attitude about the goaltending….even the coach can’t stand it anymore..

 

[Czechboy]

Im
Not arguing that Chiarelli was an incredibly shitty GM- Holland has managed to top him. All of the success the Oilers have had over the past 2 years have been off players from Chiarelli. Holland is destroying this team

The worst thing is.. people won't realize this till the next GM comes in and says 'what the f*** do you want me to do with Ryan, Kass, Smith, Keith, Barrie, 5 mill in buyouts next year?'

Nicholson hired the 2 worst GM's back to back.

And I HATED CHIA.. But I will repeat this often (not for you) but complaining about the shitty Koski contract is cherry picking. chias has left us 3 contracts. They add up to 25 million dollars... they are Koski, Drai and McDavid. No poster, GM or casual fan would turn down that trio for that much money. Can't complain about the 1 awful contract without noticing the 2 really really good ones. There are 3 left not one.

And if the Koski contract is such an albatross for Holland.. 1000 days to do something. Not 'try' but actually do something.

 

[Louis Cypher]

Holland isn't going to tell the pinhead media and the fans what his real plans are. He's not going to say he's firing the coach or been trying to trade Koskinen for 1000 days. Give your head a shake. MacT was the one who would tell the media all his plans. LOL

 

[Beerfish]

Holland isn't going to tell the pinhead media and the fans what his real plans are. He's not going to say he's firing the coach or been trying to trade Koskinen for 1000 days. Give your head a shake. MacT was the one who would tell the media all his plans. LOL

Ah yes the evil genius keeping the cards to himself theory. This one really did give me an LOL moment.