Hockey History

[BehindTheTimes]

That’s fair but anyone who says McDavid can’t do nothing more than skate fast is off their rocker in my opinion.

Sure, not to take anything away from McDavid, but I don’t think some really appreciate how great Mario and Wayne truly were.

I mean the arguments that the game has evolved so much and the newer breed would just blow them away in scoring is quite frankly absurd, but many try to make that argument.

Generational talents like Mario/Wayne transcend eras. We have plenty of evidence to support this too. Look at a player like Ray Bourque, 19 times was named to the All-star team and earned everyone of them across a 21 year career. Surely if the game evolved at that rate and newer is better than this shouldn’t be possible. When Bourque/Lidstroms career overlapped, Ray was clearly the better player, but Lids was special too and won a Norris Trophy in his 40’s.

Wayne in the 2nd half of his career as a shell of his former self was able to pace with the likes of a prime Joe Sakic and Jaromir Jagr. Mario came back after 3 seasons off and could barely skate, on one leg and averaged nearly a gpg over 41 games in 2000-2001, 76 points in 41 games by a guy who was clearly no longer himself.

The evidence that generational talents transcend eras is pretty clear.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I think Mario Lemieux is the greatest player of all time.

Wayne Gretzky had the greatest career. That is indisputable. But if I had to choose one for a seven game series assuming they're both at 100% and healthy in their prime - I'd take Lemieux.

I’d take Wayne without blinking.

 

[sandviper]

Sure, not to take anything away from McDavid, but I don’t think some really appreciate how great Mario and Wayne truly were.

I mean the arguments that the game has evolved so much and the newer breed would just blow them away in scoring is quite frankly absurd, but many try to make that argument.

Generational talents like Mario/Wayne transcend eras. We have plenty of evidence to support this too. Look at a player like Ray Bourque, 19 times was named to the All-star team and earned everyone of them across a 21 year career. Surely if the game evolved at that rate and newer is better than this shouldn’t be possible. When Bourque/Lidstroms career overlapped, Ray was clearly the better player, but Lids was special too and won a Norris Trophy in his 40’s.

Wayne in the 2nd half of his career as a shell of his former self was able to pace with the likes of a prime Joe Sakic and Jaromir Jagr. Mario came back after 3 seasons off and could barely skate, on one leg and averaged nearly a gpg over 41 games in 2000-2001, 76 points in 41 games by a guy who was clearly no longer himself.

The evidence that generational talents transcend eras is pretty clear.

Sure, and perhaps I was overzealous with the 99/66 comparisons. That said, having watched those players in their prime, I don’t think McDavid would be out of place in those discussions as far as skills are concerned. I get it’s hard as the game has changed so much.

I suppose one way to frame my thinking is McDavid to me is a generational talent but perhaps too early to label him as a generational player. In which case, all those accomplishments by past players, what they’ve been able to do later in their careers mean so much more.

Skills matter, but yes, what those players can actually do when it counts matter as well. McDavid hasn’t done that yet, though I will partly blame the management around him for wasting these prime years.

On a side note, I still think 66 was a better player than 99.

Anyhow, one thing I think we can all agree on is Suzuki isn’t a generational talent

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sure, and perhaps I was overzealous with the 99/66 comparisons. That said, having watched those players in their prime, I don’t think McDavid would be out of place in those discussions as far as skills are concerned. I get it’s hard as the game has changed so much.

I suppose one way to frame my thinking is McDavid to me is a generational talent but perhaps too early to label him as a generational player. In which case, all those accomplishments by past players, what they’ve been able to do later in their careers mean so much more.

Skills matter, but yes, what those players can actually do when it counts matter as well. McDavid hasn’t done that yet, though I will partly blame the management around him for wasting these prime years.

On a side note, I still think 66 was a better player than 99.

Anyhow, one thing I think we can all agree on is Suzuki isn’t a generational talent

I don’t think it’s too early to say McDavid is generational.

 

[BergevinsOnlyFan]

I don’t think it’s too early to say McDavid is generational.

I feel nobody would say that if he was a habs and we watched every game he has played

 

[BehindTheTimes]

IMO,

McDavid is great but he is NOT on Lemieux's nor Gretzky's level.

Would you honestly say this if McDavid was Russian or any other nationality than Canadian?

I don't think McDavid is even as good as prime Jagr.

I don’t either. One thing is for sure, Gretzky wouldn’t be losing scoring titles to Leon Draisatl or Kucherov, I’m pretty confident in that.

 

[Mrb1p]

I don’t either. One thing is for sure, Gretzky wouldn’t be losing scoring titles to Leon Draisatl or Kucherov, I’m pretty confident in that.

Well he did lose one to Dionne, Stevens, a lot of people in 94, Selanne and Kariya in 96 and a lot of people in 98

 

[Skip Bayless]

I think you people need to establish what "generational talent" is first before discussing wether McDavid is or isn't one.

Because I'm reading a bunch of comparisons between generations and what ifs and citing stats and scoring races, and it makes no sense.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

IMO,

McDavid is great but he is NOT on Lemieux's nor Gretzky's level.

Would you honestly say this if McDavid was Russian or any other nationality than Canadian?

I don't think McDavid is even as good as prime Jagr.

Jagr didn't have a 100 point season until he was 23 - with Mario putting up an incredibly stupid season. He didn't hit his prime until 25.

McDavid already has three 100 point seasons under his belt and would've had his fourth last year ( 97 points in 64 games) and he's just turned 24. And he's done this in a tougher league and on horrible teams btw.

Relative to age, he's better than Jagr by a country mile.

As for being at Lemieux or Gretzky's level... if that's the bar for 'generational' then the term no longer has meaning. If you want to compare him to Crosby, OV, Lindros etc... then yeah, he's generational. If he stays healthy he's going to put up insane numbers over the next five years. Just too bad the covid crap has gotten in the way.

Anyways, how 'bout that Nick Suzuki guy?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Well he did lose one to Dionne, Stevens, a lot of people in 94, Selanne and Kariya in 96 and a lot of people in 98

If you think that was prime Wayne, I don’t know what to tell you. He tied Dionne as a kid in his 1st year. I remember everyone back then said the same things, he’s too small, he can’t make it in this league bla bla bla and then he goes on to obliterate just about every record in existence. He would eat this league up with the reduced clutching/grabbing etc. He’d be in the 150-160 point range in his prime and have the title locked up 60-70 games in.

 

[Mrb1p]

If you think that was prime Wayne, I don’t know what to tell you. He tied Dionne as a kid in his 1st year. I remember everyone back then said the same things, he’s too small, he can’t make it in this league bla bla bla and then he goes on to obliterate just about every record in existence. He would eat this league up with the reduced clutching/grabbing etc. He’d be in the 150-160 point range in his prime and have the title locked up 60-70 games in.

I did not say he would not, its pretty clear both Lemieux and Gretzky would destroy this league, but I am being fair, he did lose scoring races.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I did not say he would not, its pretty clear both Lemieux and Gretzky would destroy this league, but I am being fair, he did lose scoring races.

I don’t think it’s being fair to compare Wayne in the 2nd half of his career, post Gary Suter to players in the prime and say “see, he lost scoring titles” this is the opposite of fair. It was quite obvious I was talking about Prime Wayne. No one could challenge him except Super Mario.

No one would fault Crosby for losing scoring races in his 30’s either. This is expected, but doesn’t tarnish his legacy one bit. I think Lemieux had more talent, but in a best of 7, both in their prime I think Wayne brings more to the table. Better defensively as well, better at 5 on 5 etc

 

[Mrb1p]

I don’t think it’s being fair to compare Wayne in the 2nd half of his career, post Gary Suter to players in the prime and say “see, he lost scoring titles” this is the opposite of fair. It was quite obvious I was talking about Prime Wayne. No one could challenge him except Super Mario.

No one would fault Crosby for losing scoring races in his 30’s either. This is expected, but doesn’t tarnish his legacy one bit. I think Lemieux had more talent, but in a best of 7, both in their prime I think Wayne brings more to the table. Better defensively as well, better at 5 on 5 etc

I mean, he's Wayne Gretzky. He's not Paul Byron. He should be held to the greatest standard. I mean, Lemieux finished 2nd in PPG in 03 at 37 and in 01 coming back from retirement he finished first by a lot. At 37, Wayne was 8th in PPG.

Basically, its impossible to pinpoint a prime for Lemieux, he was primed all over his career, Wayne clearly declined after 35 (Declined into a top 5 point producer, lmao!)

Edit: From 94 to 98 (Age 34 to 38) Wayne fell to 8th in total points, 9th in PPG) now obviously this is hard to do for Mario but wtv, Lemieux was first in that 34-38 time frame. (and even going to 40)

Edit 2: I dont even know what Im discussing btw Im just being amazed at those two guys stats lines

 

[Scriptor]

That’s fair but anyone who says McDavid can’t do nothing more than skate fast is off their rocker in my opinion.

The difference between Byron and McDavid (apart from size) is that, while they both can skate like the wind, McDavid can execute mad skills at high speed. Byron, not so much.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

The difference between Byron and McDavid (apart from size) is that, while they both can skate like the wind, McDavid can execute mad skills at high speed. Byron, not so much.

McDavid is a way better skater too.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I mean, he's Wayne Gretzky. He's not Paul Byron. He should be held to the greatest standard. I mean, Lemieux finished 2nd in PPG in 03 at 37 and in 01 coming back from retirement he finished first by a lot. At 37, Wayne was 8th in PPG.

Basically, its impossible to pinpoint a prime for Lemieux, he was primed all over his career, Wayne clearly declined after 35 (Declined into a top 5 point producer, lmao!)

Sure, I value less what they did post 35 years old. Players age differently, Lemieux had a unique body type along with his immense skill to still dominate while aging and being decimated by injuries. Wayne declined more as he aged and suffered injuries, but you gotta remember he also played a shit ton more hockey.
When evaluating the best ever in these types of discussions I think what they did at their very best/prime peak over how they did in their declining years.

 

[Mrb1p]

Sure, I value less what they did post 35 years old. Players age differently, Lemieux had a unique body type along with his immense skill to still dominate while aging and being decimated by injuries. Wayne declined more as he aged and suffered injuries, but you gotta remember he also played a shit ton more hockey.
When evaluating the best ever in these types of discussions I think what they did at their very best/prime peak over how they did in their declining years.

I don't know, I see it as a statement to Lemieux level of talent that he could still be in best ever territory while being so broken down. While Gretzky slowed down to average HOF at ages he shouldve still been pretty dominant, especially with his cerebral style of play.

 

[Mrb1p]

That’s fair but anyone who says McDavid can’t do nothing more than skate fast is off their rocker in my opinion.

Id say McDavid can't be the best player in the world if he doesnt skate as fast. His skills are elite, but theyre not generational. His ability to make plays at speed make him generational.

A betting man would say he's going to see the greatest crash and burn of all the GOAT players. By 30, hell be a PPG player only.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don’t think it’s being fair to compare Wayne in the 2nd half of his career, post Gary Suter to players in the prime and say “see, he lost scoring titles” this is the opposite of fair. It was quite obvious I was talking about Prime Wayne. No one could challenge him except Super Mario.

No one would fault Crosby for losing scoring races in his 30’s either. This is expected, but doesn’t tarnish his legacy one bit. I think Lemieux had more talent, but in a best of 7, both in their prime I think Wayne brings more to the table. Better defensively as well, better at 5 on 5 etc

Gretzky did not really play defense. He would sit there at the blueline and wait to be sprung. And btw, it's fine to do that when you're a 200 point player. They'd still have a guy on him even when he was away from the play.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Creating this thread as a catch all to the discussions that concern players/teams of the past. Enjoy!

 

[Mrb1p]

Creating this thread as a catch all to the discussions that concern players/teams of the past. Enjoy!

Maybe move the greztky talk into this one, were derailing pretty hard lmao.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Maybe move the greztky talk into this one, were derailing pretty hard lmao.

That's why it was created.

In the process of moving that conversation now.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Id say McDavid can't be the best player in the world if he doesnt skate as fast. His skills are elite, but theyre not generational. His ability to make plays at speed make him generational.

A betting man would say he's going to see the greatest crash and burn of all the GOAT players. By 30, hell be a PPG player only.

I would take that bet.

Provided he stays healthy, I think he's going to put up better numbers over the next five years than any player since Lemieux. He'll do it in a hard league and on crappy teams. He's pretty freaking good.

 

[Mrb1p]

I would take that bet.

Provided he stays healthy, I think he's going to put up better numbers over the next five years than any player since Lemieux. He'll do it in a hard league and on crappy teams. He's pretty freaking good.

Yeah, until his skating declines, which is the thing that goes first usually. Thats what Im saying, he's going to post GOAT numbers, well modern-times wise, but he's going to fall off quick IMO, that kind of speed goes quick.

Edit: Basically at the end of the day, he doesn't fall above Crosby on the all-time list.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yeah, until his skating declines, which is the thing that goes first usually. Thats what Im saying, he's going to post GOAT numbers, well modern-times wise, but he's going to fall off quick IMO, that kind of speed goes quick.

He's not going to drop off that quickly though. Point per game by 30? I'd be shocked.