Hockey History

Lafleurs Guy

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Guy Lafleur was smoking cigarettes during the intermissions and Lemieux was not in the best possible shape his whole career. I like McDavid I think he's good but let's not compare apples with oranges.
Not sure what your point is here. Guy Lafleur smoked cigarettes... Yep. So what?

As for Lemieux, Gretzky and a whole slew of others from the 70s and 80s, they weren't in peak shape. They didn't really lift weights and if they had, they may have lasted a lot longer than they did. What weights do for you is make you better for longer. But that was a completely different time. It was only in the late 80s and into the 90s that most players started to take conditioning more seriously. Jagr is a good example of this. Just awesome conditioning and it made him a force into his 40s. Was Jagr better than Lafleur at his peak (relatively speaking)? Maybe... I don't think so though if you're including the playoffs. Lafleur was just a machine. But Lafleur only lasted 6 great seasons. Some of that was due to injury and some of it was due to politics but however you slice it, he has six maginficent years to his resume. Jagr on the other hand has several more because he was in shape.

We'll see what happens with McDavid. He's a disciple of Gary Roberts' training group so he's taking the conditioning seriously.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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Hockey fans in 20 years.

- "Dmen were so slow in the 2020 no way he would be able to do this in 2040."
- "Yeah he would barely do 80 points in the current NHL".
- "Man those dmen could not even pivot both side let alone skate".
- "He really was not that great 2nd liners today are better hockey has evolved so much in the last 20 years".


Man, this is such an out of context satire that completely leaves out the biggest reason why people would say that: Adding many teams to the league quite simply dilutes the talent level, which gives a bigger disparity between the top and the rest, giving bigger margins to elite players.

A bigger talent pool versus a static league will inevitably cause the opposite and bring the extremes closer together and make the average player closer in talent to the top player. This will inevitably level off production, bringing the top player's production closer to the median.

Those are completely legit reasons to hold off comparisons between top players from different eras, but it seems hard to accept by those who put their childhood idols on a pedestal.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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1993-94 season was the beginning of the dead puck era and uber clutch & grab.

It doesn't really matter who Jagr played with. Look at the individual. Pens had a stacked team. Gretzky played on stacked teams as well.

Think of the things Jagr was able to do to in the height of the dead puck era.. now imagine no more clutching and grabbing allowed, at all.

You can take McDavid, but I would take a prime Jagr in 2021, any day of the week.

More like 95, mildly and then it skyrocketed up to 2000. Scoring was still high in 93 and 94. Hell, Hull was coming off several 70 and 80 goal seasons at that point, scored almost 60 in 93.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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McDavid is currently pacing for what would be a 152 point season. That would be the highest total of any player not named Gretzky, Lemieux or Yzerman. Pretty damn impressive.
 

BehindTheTimes

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Jun 24, 2018
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McDavid is currently pacing for what would be a 152 point season. That would be the highest total of any player not named Gretzky, Lemieux or Yzerman. Pretty damn impressive.
He’s definitely on a tear, but there’s little chance he will keep it up.
 

Weztex

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Yeah, for sure, but the goalies were so small back then, and generally awful. So many bad players had a ton of points in the late 80's and 90's, I mean Jason Allison could hardly skate and he was an allstar. I really don't think we can appreciate how bad the general player was bad in the day, because the game was so different. Tons of untalented goons, goalies that were 5'9 and covered 1/4 of the net, zero backchecking. BTW this was my favorite time to be a fan, but hockey was a different game 25 years ago. Watch an hour of 99's highlights, they are hilarious how bad the defense and goaltending were. He rarely would snipe a one-timer, to say he was protected is an understatement. If he was treated like Crosby out there, with the headshots and hits, he wouldn't be half the player he was.

I have half a dozen good friends who played in the NHL, they are the first to say the kids today are 2x the players from their glory days in the 90's. Of course the legends would still be amazing players in today's game, but no way 99 is potting 70 goals, he could never shoot the puck like Ovechkin, not even close.

Wow! This post is almost completely devoid of historical perpective or actual facts. Impressive.
 
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widowmaker

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He’s definitely on a tear, but there’s little chance he will keep it up.
I'm sure he'll keep it up for this season in this weak division.......Next year when things are back to normal he'll taper off to more McDavid normal numbers which are still real good for today
 

BehindTheTimes

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I'm sure he'll keep it up for this season in this weak division.......Next year when things are back to normal he'll taper off to more McDavid normal numbers which are still real good for today
I would bet against him keeping it up.
 

BehindTheTimes

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Wow! This post is almost completely devoid of historical perpective or actual facts. Impressive.
These posts are so ridiculous. Players don’t evolve nearly as fast as some seem to think. The stars of the 90’s would still be stars today. How do I know this? We have example after example where star players spanned across multiple eras throughout their own 20 year careers, many have remained competitive into their late 30’s and even early 40’s. The players haven’t changed that much, the equipment, the tools and systems have. We aren’t just talking about stars here, we are talking about 2 of the biggest outliers in the history of professional sports. They weren’t just very good players, they were lapping the field, leaving them in their dust. Locking up scoring races at the 60 game mark, beating their closest rival by 70 points who many times was their very own teammate, and the only reason they were within 70 points is because they benefited from playing with them.

Wayne/Mario would never lose a scoring title to anyone but each other if they were both in the league today in their prime. They wouldn’t be out scored by Kucherov or Draisatl and certainly not any Sedins either. They’d be winning scoring title by 30-40 points with relative ease. No doubt in my mind at all.
 
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BigDaddyLurch

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Wayne/Mario would never lose a scoring title to anyone but each other if they were both in the league today in their prime. They wouldn’t be out scored by Kucherov or Draisatl and certainly not any Sedins either. They’d be winning scoring title by 30-40 points with relative ease. No doubt in my mind at all.

IMO, if Mario was in his prime in this era of no-touch hockey, he'd be averaging 2 goals a game...
 

widowmaker

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IMO, if Mario was in his prime in this era of no-touch hockey, he'd be averaging 2 goals a game...
. Doubt it.........Goalies are so much better athletically and technically than in his hayday......the talent gap between 3-4 liners and top guys also really isn't that much nowadays as used to........He'd still score over 50 and probably over 60 though
 

BehindTheTimes

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IMO, if Mario was in his prime in this era of no-touch hockey, he'd be averaging 2 goals a game...
He wouldn’t be struggling that’s for sure. He was the best pure goal scorer ever imo. On a breakaway he was seldom stopped. I only remember a few times where he was bested by the goaltender. That top corner, glove side, just under the bar was pure gold. So many options that the goaltenders were terrified. He’d do the same today, except he wouldn’t need to drag a forward through the neutral zone and two dmem on his back in offensive zone. If he did, it would be called everytime and he was damn lethal on the pp too. The eye test alone tells you there was no one on Wayne/Mario’s level, not then and not today, but when u see what a one legged, unable to skate Mario did in them 41 games upon returning where he scored 35 goals and 76 points in 41 games while being half the player he was in his prime that should tell you all you need to know.

The two greatest players on earth had careers that overlapped one another and with systems and the creativity/skill plays being coached out of the game today it is doubtful we ever see another. These systems/discipline are enforced now long before the pro game. It will be difficult to ever see a player at those levels again.
 

BenchBrawl

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He's a transcending skater without question but that's it. He's not head and shoulders better than everybody else in the league. He's not a Wayne, Mario, Bobby.... Of course that's just my opinion.

Obviously he's not a Wayne, Mario or Orr. What kind of standard is that though? lol

Just by the eye-test it's obvious he's not in their league. He belongs in the Guy Lafleur tier of all-time players, and even then, let's wait for him to have one great playoff before putting him on this pedestal.

For Mario, thing with him is that ALL his skills were at 10/10 level. Slapshots, wristshots, snapshots, passes, stickhandling and dangling, cat and mouse game, breakaways, IQ, size, skating mobility and diversity of speed gears, creativity, clutchness and flair for the dramatic, he was maximally talented.

Bobby Orr controlled the entire game and is the most impactful player in hockey history when on the ice.

Wayne Gretzky is the only player whose passes take a few replays in slow-mo to even understand why he did the play where and when he did it. Even with the advantage of the overview camera, of multiple replay viewings, his plays seem to come from a strange mental land.

All of them were 2, 3 notches above McDavid and more talented than he ever will be. Mario and Wayne would never lose an Art Ross to a teammate, unless they missed *a lot* of games to injuries.
 
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Essenege

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What he is doing is incredible, but there was plenty of players more dominant in point production compared to their pairs.

Players with larger separation

Gretzky
Lemieux
Esposito
Orr

on a similar level

Lafleur/Dionne
(Young) Gordie Howe
Crosby (prime pace...66 in 41 means 132 in a season where Sedin was first at 104...and he did average that pace during its 3 injured season.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Jul 20, 2007
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What he is doing is incredible, but there was plenty of players more dominant in point production compared to their pairs.

Players with larger separation

Gretzky
Lemieux
Esposito
Orr

on a similar level

Lafleur/Dionne
(Young) Gordie Howe
Crosby (prime pace...66 in 41 means 132 in a season where Sedin was first at 104...and he did average that pace during its 3 injured season.
Sure... but McDavid is just coming into his prime now. It reminds me of Yzerman in '88. He was just heating up and then got hurt. Next year he exploded for 155.

McDavid has a mind boggling 27 points in his last ten games. Yes, it's an easier league due to covid but he's going to improve from where he is now. Pacing at 150 or whatever is just unheard of in this day and age.
 
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Essenege

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Sure... but McDavid is just coming into his prime now. It reminds me of Yzerman in '88. He was just heating up and then got hurt. Next year he exploded for 155.

McDavid has a mind boggling 27 points in his last ten games. Yes, it's an easier league but he's going to improve from where he is now. Pacing at 150 or whatever is just unheard of in this day and age.

If he maintains that pace over the next season or 2 in the regular setup...I agree a close to 2PPG is crazy. He’d still be behind Gretz and Mario in my book (Mario’s production coming back at 35 y/O in the heart of the DPE was similar to McD now!!), but I can see him ending up 3rd best. If he clips 2-3>= 150pts pace season I would definitely reconsider. I think this is the kind of production prime Gretz/Lemieux would put up in today’s NHL (150-175 pts)
 

BehindTheTimes

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Jun 24, 2018
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Sure... but McDavid is just coming into his prime now. It reminds me of Yzerman in '88. He was just heating up and then got hurt. Next year he exploded for 155.

McDavid has a mind boggling 27 points in his last ten games. Yes, it's an easier league but he's going to improve from where he is now. Pacing at 150 or whatever is just unheard of in this day and age.
It was unheard of in the 80’s too, until you know who.
 
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Lafleurs Guy

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If he maintains that pace over the next season or 2 in the regular setup...I agree a close to 2PPG is crazy. He’d still be behind Gretz and Mario in my book (Mario’s production coming back at 35 y/O in the heart of the DPE was similar to McD now!!), but I can see him ending up 3rd best. If he clips 2-3>= 150pts pace season I would definitely reconsider. I think this is the kind of production prime Gretz/Lemieux would put up in today’s NHL (150-175 pts)
Being behind Mario and Gretz... no shame in that.
 
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Lafleurs Guy

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It was unheard of in the 80’s too, until you know who.
Funny, I did a quick calc.

27 in 10 = 2.7 per game. 2.7 x 80 = 216 points. One more than Gretzky.

No, I don't think he'll ever do that but it just shows how insanely hot he is right now.
 

BehindTheTimes

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Jun 24, 2018
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Funny, I did a quick calc.

27 in 10 = 2.7 per game. 2.7 x 80 = 216 points. One more than Gretzky.

No, I don't think he'll ever do that but it just shows how insanely hot he is right now.
He’s having an elite season for sure. It’s too bad it will always have an asterisk by it for being in the the weakest division and not being a complete season. I don’t fault him for the division he plays in, but this will be the talk from many.

I feel this will be his biggest season and those numbers are a bit inflated, but it’s incredible no matter how you slice it.

Gretzky also had a 51 game scoring streak where he recorded 153 points. 3 ppg. If you include the last 9 games from the previous season, his streak is at 60 games. Just crazy.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Jul 20, 2007
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Btw, since this is the hockey history thread... Paul Coffey not winning the Norris in 1984 was like Spielberg not getting best director in 1975. A crime.
 

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