BlueBaron
Registered User
The goal is to have so many prospects under contract that every year we lose some if we want to draft new ones. Why do I have to explain everything to you people?
Hindsight is 20/20, were these the right decisions?
- Thread starter Orfieus
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The goal is to have so many prospects under contract that every year we lose some if we want to draft new ones. Why do I have to explain everything to you people?
Nithoniniel
Registered User
Oh absolutely. I've never been as negative on the players in question as many others. They were both good players. Ideally, we'd pick up options like that in FA though, not at the TDL.
MikeBabchuk
Mike Bobcat
ACC1224
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If Moore works out better or Fehr keeps his mouth shut they probably don't need to add the depth centre.
Martin Skoula
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The original question was about not trading JVR and Bozak (which I would have done last offseason), but yeah trading 2 2nds for 4th line center bandaids that we don't even re-sign is also a bad habit. The stable of prospects includes exactly 0 centers and 0 strong goaltenders, it still has massive holes. Many of those prospects (Grundstrom, Korshkov, Dermott) are directly filling holes from players who are walking for free (JVR, Komarov, Gardiner probably). We can't afford to spend those prospects on bringing in a piece that makes a difference like McDonagh because we wouldn't be able to fill roster turn-over.
If we built such a flawed team that we NEED to rent a Plekanec to be kind of competitive in the first round, we're not ready to be in a contender's rental mindset.
I agree, after a while, hoarding draft picks is not the answer. I disagree that that time is less than 2 calendar years after finishing last overall. Tampa's prospect pool was overflowing which allowed them to make the McDonagh trade. Ours is not even close, the only position where we are stocked is on the wing. Our center depth and goalie depth is atrocious at the prospect level, and our defense pool is mediocre at best. A strong draft this year would have been enough to fix all of those problems.
ShaneFalco
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GoonieFace
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ShaneFalco
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A 30 goal scorer and a top 4 d-man walking for nothing, and that's fine?
With the holes on this team? Wow
BlueBaron
Registered User
I'm hoping we trade Gardiner this summer. Yes I can live with JVR walking. Many of us can. Now the kids know what a game 7 is like. Hard to put a value on that.
No point debating me, I wanted to not pull the rug out from under our team and try to make some noise, playoff Tank nation knew the future and wanted to show the kids they had no faith in them.
You now have hindsight to support your position while all I have is the knowledge we tried and it did not work out.
Of course it is always possible Gardiner is extended and JVR stays with us, but I'm not counting on that either. If we were desperate for picks and prospects I might feel differently, but I do not mind investing some assets to further the education of our kids.
ShaneFalco
Registered User
Not desperate for picks and prospects but big holes to fill on this team. Even bigger now with those guys walking. And the picks traded are for temporary fixes - which is my biggest issue - 20 Games.
The "kids" have been ousted in the first round twice. How long does that continue to be a learning experience?
The "kids" have been ousted in the first round twice. How long does that continue to be a learning experience?
Agreed and I do question whether we had it and gave it away in Fehr this year.
I agree that we're not ready to be in a contender's rental mindset. I'm assuming management does as well, which is why they aren't making trades like the one Tampa made for McDonagh.
We've been building our young core since we drafted Rielly in 2012, not just since we bottomed out a couple years ago, and have one of the best up-and-coming teams in the League to show for it. Just because they support them when they've earned it doesn't mean we're ready to scrap our future for the here and now. If that's what these moves are to you, then we have fundamentally different views on the relative value of those 2nd-round picks to this club at this point in time, and we may need to simply agree to disagree.
Al14
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It may not of been going "all in", however, it was an attempt to upgrade our ability to compete directly with Boston. If it wasn't done to better compete against Boston, then, why spend the assets to acquire him?
They traded for Boyle last season to try to get to the playoffs. It was successful. This season, Plekanec was acquired in an attempt to get passed Boston. Well, it failed! We lost assets for absolutely no improvement to the season prior.
ShaneFalco
Registered User
I dunno maybe it's just me, but two years away from being cellar dwellers, before Matthews, made the playoffs once in 10 years. Terrible depth at C and lacking in other areas that have been mentioned already. But 6 guys walking, including a 30 goal scorer, and potentially a top 4 d-man...... and then 2nd round picks + prospects this year traded for what turned out be 20 game rentals. Just not what I would call good asset management and team building at this stage.
Which of Washington or Boston were you expecting us to beat? I don't mean which one did you think we could beat, or had a good chance to beat - Which one were you actually, truly expecting us to beat?
I would say it's all a learning experience until we're expected to win and we don't. Then there shouldn't really be many more surprises. You've said yourself that they're only 2 years removed from last place, and relying on a lot of 20-year-old kids to help lead the charge - certainly the give-up point hasn't hit already.
As far as holes on the team go, I honestly believe that between the core we have now, the prospets we have in the system, and the draft picks we have at our disposal, the only hole we truly have right now is patience.
ACC1224
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That and a bonafide #1 defenseman.
It will be interesting what the reaction will be to the many riches that go out the door for that player.
Weekends here!!
Bigmarycombo
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I was in the trade them at the deadline group.
My reasoning
Unlike some that thought we were legitimate cup contenders
I didn’t. Not hindsight but just my opinion.
My thinking was with a top 5 offence and a bottom five defense
We might get lucky and get to the second round.
We comfortably knew at the deadline that we were making the playoffs and so were Boston and Tampa.we also knew we would have to beat them both to get to the east final.
Let’s look at our deadline deal. Turtleneck man. Wtf!
If our management is as smart as they should be then they of all
People should realize we needed defense. They didn’t get anyone.
Shame on them.
Most definitely at the very least jvr and bozak should have been traded.
The arguement is we didn’t want to show the kids we weren’t supporting them is problematic. First of all what does marner and nylander think when they make a mistake and the next thing you know they are on the fourth line. Don’t you for once think that they sit on the bench and watch jvr do nothing defensively and at 6 3
Watch him play as soft as butter that they don’t think wow how does this guy get away with doing nothing all the time and we get punished.
I was confident that both Johnsson and kappanen would play better than bit jvr and bozak because they are hungry and want to get to the big team and. Work their tails off.
For me jvr and bozak are part of the entitled which has hurt us for 50 years.
Should have traded them we are not good enough to be losing assets for nothing at this point.
Poor management and I think it was Babcock putting up a stink about keeping them. Him and his veteran gud pros
My reasoning
Unlike some that thought we were legitimate cup contenders
I didn’t. Not hindsight but just my opinion.
My thinking was with a top 5 offence and a bottom five defense
We might get lucky and get to the second round.
We comfortably knew at the deadline that we were making the playoffs and so were Boston and Tampa.we also knew we would have to beat them both to get to the east final.
Let’s look at our deadline deal. Turtleneck man. Wtf!
If our management is as smart as they should be then they of all
People should realize we needed defense. They didn’t get anyone.
Shame on them.
Most definitely at the very least jvr and bozak should have been traded.
The arguement is we didn’t want to show the kids we weren’t supporting them is problematic. First of all what does marner and nylander think when they make a mistake and the next thing you know they are on the fourth line. Don’t you for once think that they sit on the bench and watch jvr do nothing defensively and at 6 3
Watch him play as soft as butter that they don’t think wow how does this guy get away with doing nothing all the time and we get punished.
I was confident that both Johnsson and kappanen would play better than bit jvr and bozak because they are hungry and want to get to the big team and. Work their tails off.
For me jvr and bozak are part of the entitled which has hurt us for 50 years.
Should have traded them we are not good enough to be losing assets for nothing at this point.
Poor management and I think it was Babcock putting up a stink about keeping them. Him and his veteran gud pros
Trapper
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- Nov 21, 2013
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I'd rather be sitting with an extra 1st round pick, an 82 game season worth of experience for Kapanen and 40 games experience for Leivo/Johnsson heading into this summer.
There is no 6th in the league in the summer and no team is out of the playoffs. And maybe (a big maybe) Leivo might have gotten lucky and scored 12 + goals playing with Marner and drawing some interest from someone.
It does not send a bad message to move JVR in the summer to have a competition for Leivo/Kappy/Johnsson. Instead you buried a player in the minors who should be here and buried another in the press box.
This is Year 3 of the new order. JVR and Gardiner are the last of the old pieces of value. Assets to get 1st round picks. Assets that don't involve touching Kadri/Nylander/whatever. There will come a time (if we are as good as some predict) that we will draft only 25 + on a yearly basis. I'd rather finish off the 3-5 year plan with the extra picks (to be developing centers and perhaps movable young assets in trade).
Then win a damn round first before even picking up the phone at the trade deadline.
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Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
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i have to say... so?
many of the top teams had struggles in the first round for a few years before they advanced. the first year the Leafs made it they were up against the PC winners/Cup contender and they forced it to six. This year I think was honestly better (in the long run), because (and i've seen you say this and others) we were "lucky" to get to seven, blah blah.
I said it a few weeks ago, and I am saying it now. I'm not upset that we lost, I'm upset that the Leafs handed the series to Boston the way they did. (and Boston was smart enough to go "oh okay." and that in itself is a learning experience. we can also call it what it is, an opportunity lost, but now they know.
comparatively speaking, Chicago did it "weird" - but after their cup win they lost in the first round the last two rounds with their really young group of guys. Pittsburgh struggled, won, then struggled forever, before they kicked it back into gear the last few years. Ditto LA. Tampa was a damned yoyo with that core they had for the most part and a lot of pieces changed in and out of there.
more often than naught it's gonna be a struggle than easy breezy street, more so when your main cast of characters is under 22 years old. (what bugged me the player that killed us were also the younger ones, and i think that's something they can learn from as well). maybe it's the scholar in me but people tend to want to dismiss "learning experiences" or think there's a limit. There isn't any. the expectation will change though (as it should) but you can always learn something.
Daisy Jane
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and again i really think this needs to be stressed.
If people want to argue that JVR, Bozak, Komarov whomever should have been traded last summer. I agree with you (and please let the record show, I've stated Komarov should have been traded during the tank year when his value was the highest and JVR the year before (2 years of rent control JVR = lots of prospects, and i would have retained on that as well to better the return if necessary)
If people are legitimately going to be trying to argue that the 7th best team should have lopped 1/2 a line and some of its depth because they might not make it out of the first round (they didn't) then I am sorry that is just wrong. I dont know any other team that would do such a thing.
also - again - the belief is that JVR (et al) would have brought back this huge bounty. There were only 3 wingers (of value) available you can argue - Kane (available) Nash(available), JVR (available imo if the price was worth it). a 1st round pick + is not "worth" it down the stretch - and that's even considering that was available (remember the Leafs were trying to get another 1st round pick, so the only one of value to get that was JVR - and that would have meant they were gonna pair ours with that to get McDonagh). and that fell through. so let that sit for a bit. If Lou was trying to get a first round pick, and couldn't - this belief we could have all the picks if only, needs to stop. the offers simply weren't there.
If people want to argue that JVR, Bozak, Komarov whomever should have been traded last summer. I agree with you (and please let the record show, I've stated Komarov should have been traded during the tank year when his value was the highest and JVR the year before (2 years of rent control JVR = lots of prospects, and i would have retained on that as well to better the return if necessary)
If people are legitimately going to be trying to argue that the 7th best team should have lopped 1/2 a line and some of its depth because they might not make it out of the first round (they didn't) then I am sorry that is just wrong. I dont know any other team that would do such a thing.
also - again - the belief is that JVR (et al) would have brought back this huge bounty. There were only 3 wingers (of value) available you can argue - Kane (available) Nash(available), JVR (available imo if the price was worth it). a 1st round pick + is not "worth" it down the stretch - and that's even considering that was available (remember the Leafs were trying to get another 1st round pick, so the only one of value to get that was JVR - and that would have meant they were gonna pair ours with that to get McDonagh). and that fell through. so let that sit for a bit. If Lou was trying to get a first round pick, and couldn't - this belief we could have all the picks if only, needs to stop. the offers simply weren't there.
BlueBaron
Registered User
But we've had such easy match ups @Daisy Jane, it should have been easy to get out of the 1rst round. Next year will be easy again, almost certainly Tampa or Boston 
.
.The center depth I 100% agree on. Probably even more of a need than a RHD prospect.
However, I know now that you are not familiar with Sparks and Pickard. We actually have too much goalie depth right now.
Sparks is by far the best goaltender in the AHL, and could probably outplay quite a few starters for a job, Pickard is also top 10 in the AHL in Sv%, and is a solid goalie in his own rights. These two can't even get in a game cause Andersen and McBackup have been (generally) lights out as well. Goaltending isn't really a problem here.
Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
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But we've had such easy match ups @Daisy Jane, it should have been easy to get out of the 1rst round. Next year will be easy again, almost certainly Tampa or Boston
Honestly, (and i know you were being sarcastic) that was something that I've been asking all year. people wanted to go well it's Boston/Tampa, Tampa/Boston, but next year it's easily gonna be Boston/Tampa, Tampa/Boston. (not to mention Florida, Ottawa (if they follow in the crap year/good year trajectory they tend to do), and Montreal if they get their crap together). but we could settle in right at Three and then what
we never do anything trade wise to make us ebtter until there's this magic time that we're a cup contender to everyone's satisfaction?
Martin Skoula
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I've seen enough of both, I'm not convinced either is anything more than a back-up at the NHL level. They both strike me as AAAA goalies, similar to how Marincin is a AAAA defenseman: too good for the minors, not good enough to be a significant player in the big leagues. We don't have a Hart, Sorokin, Samsonov type that is trending to become a 1A starter in the next 5 years. How long can Freddy's body hold up playing games in the high 60s + playoffs?
