HHOF 2019

[Neutrinos]

i think patrik elias is the clear best modern LW not in the hall.

brian propp comes immediately to mind. you could make an argument for kevin stevens due to peak value. i could go either way on leclair vs markus naslund and i hate markus naslund. actually, mats naslund probably belongs in this conversation too if you count non-NHL accomplishments.

all to say, leclair is a high HOVG to me. a guy like brian bellows might be the low end of that range of LW.

as for zubov, i have him solidly in the neighbourhood of gary suter. a very very good player, but i have a whole tier of guys between zubov/suter(/gonchar/foote) and tremblay/wilson. guys like desjardins, derian hatcher go in that in between tier, among his contemporaries. farther back, probably carl brewer from what i know of him.

The clear best?

I think most would take LeClair, Naslund, Tkachuk or Heatley over Elias

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Lindros was injured enough to know how peak LeClair played without him. And in the NHL, LeClair scored at an almost identical rate with and without Lindros. But his +/- was much worse without Lindros.

And of course, there was no Lindros on Team USA when LeClair was excellent in the 1996 World Cup.

With Kariya's induction, LeClair has the best All-Star record of any eligible player not in the HHOF. I realize it was at a pretty weak position, but it hasn't stopped literally every other LW or RW with a similar record from being inducted.

but then the slippery slope argument. after leclair, it’s rick martin, who is reasonably close behind. after rick martin it’s markus naslund’s three straight first teams.

 

[HawkNut]

So Edgar Martinez was just inducted into Cooperstown. I'm not a huge baseball fan, but that looks like an Andreychuk/Housley induction... for those who want to keep on about how selective the other Halls are.

Leclair shouldn't be going to the HHOF. You can be good for 5.5 years while playing with a generational talent and basically nothing otherwise. Kariya just waited 4 years to get in and Naslund probably won't ever, but they had better careers outside of their best 5-6 years than Leclair did.

Next best 5 years (Raw data, which benefits Leclair a lot. It's actually worse than it looks):
Kariya = 82-26-47-73, 0.31, 0.89
Naslund = 80-27-33-60, 0.33, 0.75
Leclair = 75-22-27-49, 0.29, 0.65

Sergei Zubov
Had 13 full seasons in the NHL, two half seasons and a 10 gamer. The worst he finished in points in his 13 mostly full seasons was 16th. Between 1998-2008, he averaged 26 mins a game and 3 on the PK. He was a key part of 2 Stanley Cup winners and a SC finalist. He led the 1994 Rangers in regular season scoring during their President's Trophy win and eventual Stanley Cup win. He was elite for his entire career, not just 1/3 of it.

Ranks per season among D-men
Pts = 2, 2, 2, 4, 8, 8, 9, 9, 11, 13, 13, 14, 16
PPG = 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 10, 12, 13, 14, 14, 18, 19

LeClair was more than good for 5.5 years. He was exceptional, and achieved a lot, too. He wasn't bad in other years, either.

I wouldn't think of Edgar as a bad selection at all, and I am one of the few people on here, maybe the only person, who thinks Andreychuk's selection was justified.

Where does Zubov rank among the best defensemen of his era?

Lidstrom
Niedermayer
MacInnis
Bourque
Blake
Chelios
Chara
Leetch
Pronger

That's nine, just off the top of my head, who played at the same time as Zubov did and I'd say all were/are better. I'm probably missing a couple and drawing a blank. Was Zubov better than Housley?

 

[Ishdul]

So Edgar Martinez was just inducted into Cooperstown. I'm not a huge baseball fan, but that looks like an Andreychuk/Housley induction... for those who want to keep on about how selective the other Halls are.

Martinez was among the best hitters in the world for a decent length of time, and was a very productive player for a very long time. Most of the opposition to him is that he was a DH when no player who would have been considered a full time DH had made the Hall, but considering half the league has had the DH rule for over 50 years now and they recently put in Frank Thomas I don't think there was the same problem on that front. As a player I think he was well over the Hall of Fame bar.

Now Harold Baines, Lee Smith? Those are sub-Andreychuk/Housley level.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The clear best?

I think most would take LeClair, Naslund, Tkachuk or Heatley over Elias

Elias (rightfully) ranked higher than all of them on the HOH top wingers of all time list. Then LeClair. The other two didn't even make the list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

but then the slippery slope argument. after leclair, it’s rick martin, who is reasonably close behind. after rick martin it’s markus naslund’s three straight first teams.

Yeah I hear what you're saying. But LeClair's resume is slighly better than Martin's (not just in the All-Star teams). And there are a small handful of 4-time All-Stars left out, but LeClair is the only 5-Time All Star left out.

I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Naslund got in eventually, by the way, though I doubt it's any time soon.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The clear best?

I think most would take LeClair, Naslund, Tkachuk or Heatley over Elias

patrik elias

- finished 3rd, 6th, and 10th in scoring

- best offensive player on the 2000 and 2001 devils, who finished 2nd and 1st in the league in goals scored, 4th and 3rd in the league in points, and made two finals including winning a cup; elias led them in scoring both years, regular season and playoffs

- outscored all those other guys except tkachuk, whom he finished just 40 points behind (in 39 more games played) despite tkachuk playing five full seasons in the high scoring era before elias' rookie season; all this while playing almost the entirety of his career in the low scoring era and missing half of the highest scoring season (2005-2006) due to hep c contracted during the lockout

- don't even start with the massive massive disparity in playoff production (but for spits and giggles, elias is top 50 all time in playoff points; the other four guys don't crack the top 100 and actually only leclair cracks the top 200)

- two cups, two finals (for reference, those other four guys together won one cup, two finals)

 

[Neutrinos]

patrik elias

- finished 3rd, 6th, and 10th in scoring

- best offensive player on the 2000 and 2001 devils, who finished 2nd and 1st in the league in goals scored, 4th and 3rd in the league in points, and made two finals including winning a cup; elias led them in scoring both years, regular season and playoffs

- outscored all those other guys except tkachuk, whom he finished just 40 points behind (in 39 more games played) despite tkachuk playing five full seasons in the high scoring era before elias' rookie season; all this while playing almost the entirety of his career in the low scoring era and missing half of the highest scoring season (2005-2006) due to hep c contracted during the lockout

- don't even start with the massive massive disparity in playoff production (but for spits and giggles, elias is top 50 all time in playoff points; the other four guys don't crack the top 100 and actually only leclair cracks the top 200)

- two cups, two finals (for reference, those other four guys together won one cup, two finals)

Cups are irrelevant in a discussion about individual players

Adjusting for era:

Elias has one 100+ point season, one 90+ point season, and a pair of 80+ point seasons

Naslund has a pair of 100+ point seasons, and a 90+ point season. His best scoring finishes are 2nd, 2nd, and 4th

LeClair has 3 100+ point seasons, a 90+ point season, and an 80+ season. His scoring finishes were 4th, 5th, 9th

Heatley has 3 100+ point seasons, a 90+ point season, and an 80+ season. His best scoring finishes are 4th, 4th and 9th

Tkachuk has only a single 90+ point season, but he has 5 other seasons in which he scored 80+ points

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's not completely irrelevant, particularly when you were as big of an impact player as Elias was on his winning teams (and conversely, how useless Tkachuk was in the failures)...but I get the point...

I'd take Elias over all of them without much of a second thought...I hesitate slightly on Leclair I guess, but Heatley, Tkachuk and Naslund...I'll pass on all those guys compared to what Elias offers...

 

[Neutrinos]

It's not completely irrelevant, particularly when you were as big of an impact player as Elias was on his winning teams (and conversely, how useless Tkachuk was in the failures)...but I get the point...

I'd take Elias over all of them without much of a second thought...I hesitate slightly on Leclair I guess, but Heatley, Tkachuk and Naslund...I'll pass on all those guys compared to what Elias offers...

The outcome of the game is irrelevant

The only thing worth discussing is how the player performed

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It's not completely irrelevant, particularly when you were as big of an impact player as Elias was on his winning teams (and conversely, how useless Tkachuk was in the failures)...but I get the point...

I'd take Elias over all of them without much of a second thought...I hesitate slightly on Leclair I guess, but Heatley, Tkachuk and Naslund...I'll pass on all those guys compared to what Elias offers...

i'm paging c1958 here because this is how he talks about some of his favourite players, but patrik elias could do anything you needed him to do. he could play all three forward positions, he could be your number one goal scoring threat, he could be your playmaker and carry brian gionta to almost 50 goals, he could run your powerplay, he killed penalties, and he wasn't john madden or bobby holik but he was a good defensive player. whatever you needed he was there.

but this is the way i think about patrik elias and why, and i understand this is a minority opinion, i have him as the best of that trio of him, alfredsson, and hossa. he says he prefers his 2003 cup to his 2000 one.

I remember that the second Cup in 2003 felt even sweeter, because we won it with less talent, and we won it our way.

that says it all. in 2000, he made a beautiful no-look pass to set up the double OT cup-winning goal, to avenge his concussed best friend, who had been destroyed by a derian hatcher headshot. when he came back on the ice he was wearing sykora's jersey and later elias brought the cup to him in the hospital. you could not write a better cup winning scenario than that. and he prefers the 2003 cup because he's a guy who will do what the team needs him to do to get the win and he completely bought in to what devils hockey was. basically, the complete opposite of keith tkachuk.

now, was elias lucky to have been drafted by the devils, come up in that great albany system, have jacques lemaire as his first coach, then larry robinson, soak up the wisdom of scott stevens, marty brodeur, doug gilmour, claude lemieux, and guys like that? of course he was. but naslund came in under mario and then later had messier. john leclair was drafted by the habs when they were still churning out and was developed by a system and culture that produced patrick roy, guy carbonneau, lemieux, eric desjardins, and enough cup rings to fill a room.

there's a reason why good organizations keep the guys they keep and reluctantly let go of the guys they have to let go of.

A year later, I saw the end again. I was almost a former Devil. Heading into free agency, Lou Lamoriello called me into his office and said, “Listen, Patty, I know there’s a lot of teams that are going to be interested in giving you a big contract, and we can’t afford it, so thank you and all the best.” That was basically it. They were moving on. So I was about to agree to a deal with the Rangers on July 1, and it was basically done. . . .

I called Lou. I just called his office. I don’t know if you’re even supposed to do that, but I did it. I said, “Are you sure we can’t work something out? We’ve done a lot of good things here.”

He said maybe three words and then hung up. Within 15 minutes, my agent called me and said that we had a seven-year deal in place with the Devils. I was going to retire in New Jersey, which is where I belonged.

about how many guys did lamoriello say, i can't lose this guy? elias could have gone the way of holik, who of course new jersey would have liked to keep if the numbers were right. or he could have been traded when the team needed a new direction, like sykora and arnott, decisions which by the way won them a cup. but lou thought it over again and decided he couldn't lose elias.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The outcome of the game is irrelevant

The only thing worth discussing is how the player performed

The outcome of the game is affected by the player's performance in the game.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Heatley is the one who would make me think about it - he really was an elite goalscorer. Näslund has season finishes but ultimately was a loser much like Tkachuk. Elias could seamlessly switch between center and winger and was elite defensively while being a very good offensive contributer (although only hitting 80 pts twice was kind of surprising to me, lower scoring era or not).

Never saw LeClair so have no opinion on him though three seasons straight of +50 goals is very impressive.

Do not agree with him being the best out of him, Alfredsson and Hossa, though. He'd be third for me. Versatility be damned.

 

[Neutrinos]

The outcome of the game is affected by the player's performance in the game.

Player A could score 5 goals a game, finish the series +20, and his team could still get swept

The outcome isn't worth discussing, only the performance

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Player A could score 5 goals a game, finish the series +20, and his team could still get swept

The outcome isn't worth discussing, only the performance

Regardless of your own preferences, it's incredibly obvious that the HHOF committee not only cares about personal contribution to team success, but it also flat out cares about team success itself.

And the best forward on every multiple-Cup winner in history is in the HHOF, except (for now) Elias.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Well, whenever you're going to extreme, and essentially, impossible angles to prove your stance, you know it must be good...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

well okay. patrik elias led his team in scoring in the playoffs en route to the stanley cup finals twice, one time winning the cup by personally assisting on the double overtime cup winning goal on a beautiful no-look pass. in his third run to the finals, he led the finals in scoring, winning a second cup.

in the only time he got his team to the second round in his prime, markus naslund scored zero goals after game one and choked away a 3-1 series lead. keith tkachuk is iirc the only player in NHL history to choke away two 3-1 series leads in his career. did you watch dany heatley in the 2007 finals?

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Martinez was among the best hitters in the world for a decent length of time, and was a very productive player for a very long time. Most of the opposition to him is that he was a DH when no player who would have been considered a full time DH had made the Hall, but considering half the league has had the DH rule for over 50 years now and they recently put in Frank Thomas I don't think there was the same problem on that front. As a player I think he was well over the Hall of Fame bar.

Now Harold Baines, Lee Smith? Those are sub-Andreychuk/Housley level.

Thomas played first base for the first 8 years of his career. He really didn't switch to DH as a regular spot until 1998.
He also hit over .300, over 100 RBI's, over 100 runs, over 100 walks, and over 20 HR's during all but his rookie season at first base, 7 consecutive years.
Just a monster player. I don't think Ramirez compares.

 

[Neutrinos]

well okay. patrik elias led his team in scoring in the playoffs en route to the stanley cup finals twice, one time winning the cup by personally assisting on the double overtime cup winning goal on a beautiful no-look pass. in his third run to the finals, he led the finals in scoring, winning a second cup.

in the only time he got his team to the second round in his prime, markus naslund scored zero goals after game one and choked away a 3-1 series lead. keith tkachuk is iirc the only player in NHL history to choke away two 3-1 series leads in his career. did you watch dany heatley in the 2007 finals?

Elias tied Arnott in one of those playoffs, and was just a single point up on Sykora in the other, so it's not like he was shouldering the offense for his team

Lots of great players have had a bad playoff run or two

Sakic was -5, and finished with only 9 points in 17 games in the 2000 playoffs

During the '03 playoffs, Elias produced just 5 goals and 8 assists in 24 games to finish 5th on the team in scoring behind the likes of Friesen, Maddon and Langenbrunner

And regarding Keith Tkachuk; there you go bringing the outcome of games into it again. It's as if you just can't help yourself

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Elias tied Arnott in one of those playoffs, and was just a single point up on Sykora in the other, so it's not like he was shouldering the offense for his team

Lots of great players have had a bad playoff run or two

Sakic was -5, and finished with only 9 points in 17 games in the 2000 playoffs

During the '03 playoffs, Elias produced just 5 goals and 8 assists in 24 games to finish 5th on the team in scoring behind the likes of Friesen, Maddon and Langenbrunner

And regarding Keith Tkachuk; there you go bringing the outcome of games into it again. It's as if you just can't help yourself

what can i say? i watch hockey

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Naslund got in eventually, by the way, though I doubt it's any time soon.

that would be a sad day, especially if elias is still on the outside.

you probably know this better than anyone but re: post above about elias' versatility, he could lead your offense on a larry robinson team or on a pat burns team. markus naslund showed that he could only be elite if you tailored your team to play a run and gun style around him while giving him a center to babysit him on his own side of the puck. and of course we all know how successful that strategy is...

 

[Giotrapani91]

What about Ryan miller will he have a shot at the hall after he retires, he was a very good goalie for about 7 years he carried Buffalo on his back in his early years in the playoffs. Even though he lost back to back conference finals.

 

[Neutrinos]

What about Ryan miller will he have a shot at the hall after he retires, he was a very good goalie for about 7 years he carried Buffalo on his back in his early years in the playoffs. Even though he lost back to back conference finals.

My first thought was 'sure, why not?'

But looking at his Vezina record, I'm rather surprised to see his finishes are: 1st, 6th, and that's it!

For comparison sake, Nabokov's finishes are: 2nd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th 6th

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ryan Miller...? Will even make the US HHOF?

 

[Canadiens1958]

i'm paging c1958 here because this is how he talks about some of his favourite players, but patrik elias could do anything you needed him to do. he could play all three forward positions, he could be your number one goal scoring threat, he could be your playmaker and carry brian gionta to almost 50 goals, he could run your powerplay, he killed penalties, and he wasn't john madden or bobby holik but he was a good defensive player. whatever you needed he was there.

but this is the way i think about patrik elias and why, and i understand this is a minority opinion, i have him as the best of that trio of him, alfredsson, and hossa. he says he prefers his 2003 cup to his 2000 one.


that says it all. in 2000, he made a beautiful no-look pass to set up the double OT cup-winning goal, to avenge his concussed best friend, who had been destroyed by a derian hatcher headshot. when he came back on the ice he was wearing sykora's jersey and later elias brought the cup to him in the hospital. you could not write a better cup winning scenario than that. and he prefers the 2003 cup because he's a guy who will do what the team needs him to do to get the win and he completely bought in to what devils hockey was. basically, the complete opposite of keith tkachuk.

now, was elias lucky to have been drafted by the devils, come up in that great albany system, have jacques lemaire as his first coach, then larry robinson, soak up the wisdom of scott stevens, marty brodeur, doug gilmour, claude lemieux, and guys like that? of course he was. but naslund came in under mario and then later had messier. john leclair was drafted by the habs when they were still churning out and was developed by a system and culture that produced patrick roy, guy carbonneau, lemieux, eric desjardins, and enough cup rings to fill a room.

there's a reason why good organizations keep the guys they keep and reluctantly let go of the guys they have to let go of.


about how many guys did lamoriello say, i can't lose this guy? elias could have gone the way of holik, who of course new jersey would have liked to keep if the numbers were right. or he could have been traded when the team needed a new direction, like sykora and arnott, decisions which by the way won them a cup. but lou thought it over again and decided he couldn't lose elias.

Yes Elias was a throwback since he brought the value of 2-3 regulars to a team due to his versitility. Think Jacques Lemaire but primarily a winger.

The others, especially Heatley, Naslund were productive players on a line but never the motor of a line.