HHOF 2019

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Arselona, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,572
    Likes Received:
    1,906
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Home Page:
    i think first ballot becomes meaningful, or at the very least interesting, once you get guys who DON'T deserve to be in getting in after waiting forever. dick duff is the poster boy and arguably also the patient zero, with his totally unexpected induction after 30 years of nobody caring that he was eligible. but of course you also have gillies (who tbf was a little earlier than duff), ciccarelli, housley, and last year andreychuk.

    the idea, i guess, is that the more you have to talk yourself into it, or the longer that takes (unless extenuating circumstances, e.g. mark howe, makarov, etc), the lower you are on the hall of fame totem pole. i think of it as a HHOF demerit, the inverse to being inducted on the day you retire, like orr, gretzky, etc.
     
    TheDevilMadeMe likes this.
  2. NyQuil

    NyQuil F.Y.R.O.U.S.

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    64,552
    Likes Received:
    10,253
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    There are people here who think they should be in but not right away.

    I don’t understand the need for a delay.

    To me it’s a binary condition.

    Sure, if there are too many candidates in a year, fine, but I don’t build that into my assessment.
     
  3. unknown33

    unknown33 Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,893
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    Europe
    It's interesting to witness how HHOF induction talks have changed over the past decade or so.
    When I started to post here there were many discussion about players being deserving of not. Gilmour, Oates, Lindros, Bure, M. Howe... nearly every 'maybe' forward (and a lot of who would have gotten a 'only if he buys a ticket' response in 2010) ended up making it in the end. Goalies and Europeans have a tougher time, but at least Makarov got in.

    It really seem they are running out of backlog candidates.

    edit: forgot about Fleury
     
    TheDevilMadeMe likes this.
  4. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,572
    Likes Received:
    1,906
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Home Page:
    maybe not exactly the same thing as you're describing, but there are borderline candidates (relative to my personal HHOF line) that if i would like to see the committee wait on to really evaluate, did this guy matter in a HHOF sense?

    i think patrik elias is one, daniel alfredsson is another (ducks), where maybe ten years after they retire you can really ask yourself, was what they did historically good? did it hold up over time?

    i would especially like that to be the case with any big number borderline candidate. cujo, luongo, i think larry murphy was rushed, and i think mike gartner was especially guy where ten years later you don't even remember there ever was a mike gartner. but of course the HHOF has proven itself completely unfit to use that time wisely, see: ciccarelli, housley, andreychuk, turgeon, marleau, and so on.
     
    TheDevilMadeMe likes this.
  5. NyQuil

    NyQuil F.Y.R.O.U.S.

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    64,552
    Likes Received:
    10,253
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    To me, both of those guys were in from the moment they retired.

    Alfredsson because he was the best player on a team with a number of eventual HoFers and players with HoF potential, and had consistently strong offensive performances among his generation of players, and Elias because he put up similar numbers and was the best forward on a dynasty team for most of his career.

    The HHOF is going to have a tough time assessing the production of guys who spent the majority of their careers in the dead-puck era unless they take context into account.

    Meanwhile, goalies who were undoubtedly beneficiaries of that era end up as all-time best goalies. Don't get me wrong, I think Hasek, Roy and Brodeur are pretty close to 1,2,3 (Sawchuk, Brimsek, Plante etc. notwithstanding), but they also put up their best numbers at around the same time which I happen to think can't be a complete coincidence.

    In any event, to the topic at hand, the moment a guy retires, I've pretty much made up my mind.

    Was Larry Murphy ever the best player on his team? Ciccarelli? Housley? Andreychuk? Marleau? Gartner? Recchi? Rick Middleton?

    Sure, it penalizes players on strong teams but they should be getting in on their numbers in that case.

    I see these guys as complementary players, and when I see franchise players sitting on the sidelines, it really makes me wonder what is going through some people's minds.

    I have a much tougher time with goalies. I think CuJo is a bit unfairly regarded because he had the misfortune of matching his career up against the Big 3.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    TheDevilMadeMe likes this.
  6. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2018
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    547
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Gender:
    Male
    That's a good description but I'll add that there is no actual ballot or voting system like in MLB from which the phrase "first ballot" comes from.

    The post above is the same arguments in baseball that migrated over in the copying of the phrase.
     
  7. HawkNut

    HawkNut Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2017
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    36
    In his career, John LeClair was a first team All Star twice and a second team All Star three times. His selection wouldn't bother me.

    I would have Zubov on the outside looking in.

    I would not put Joseph in before Barrasso.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
    frisco and Vanzig like this.
  8. trentmccleary

    trentmccleary Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Messages:
    21,424
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Alfie-Ville
    Home Page:
    The committee has already inducted a bunch of people from 1980-95 and now they're making very questionable decisions to keep on doing it. Is it really a demerit if the main reason it might happen for some players is because the HHOF can't get past inflated 1980-95 numbers?

    Alfredsson was 3rd in scoring and 4th in PPG over a 10 year period (00-10). He was 15th in GP among the top-25 scorers and played 89.1% of the games.

    For frame of reference, while trying to respect the Gretzky exception:
    Denis Savard was 4th in scoring and 5th in PPG during his 9 year peak (82-90). He was 12th in GP among the top-25 scorers and played 91.6% of the games.

    Now, I've seen numerous less than flattering comparables for Alfredsson to the likes of guys who were 25th in scoring in their own generation... which I don't always understand. I've seen the Gretzky exception or the Gretzky and Lemieux exception, but not the Gretzky, Lemieux and 25 other guys who could score during an inflated era.

    Alfredsson is going to be inducted, probably pretty soon and maybe even as the marquee in a slim 2019.

    I figure you've got generational players, franchise players, elite players (not as good or not as long) and good players. People on this board generally don't mind the first two, but the 3rd one creates uneasiness and the 4th; riots in the streets. Dave Andreychuk was a good player, nothing more at any point in his career. It's almost like the HHOF has been so blinded by the 1980's stats that they also think there was a Gretzky, Lemieux and 20 other guys exception to 1980's greatness.

    This is true, but their careers stretched across a 30 year span. Also, while the midway point in NHL history is 1967; the midpoint for NHL teams (teams per season) occurred in 1991. I think that the underrated era bonus they get buoying their claim for top spots is that goalies started playing a lot during their careers. Long seasons and the virtual elimination of tandem situations mean that most the top goalies IN GP played in the past 25-30 years.

    Axe to grind moment...
    I mentioned some unflattering Alfredsson comparables and the general inability of people to put 1980-95 scoring stats into context.

    Meet 3 of these comparables used at times (the last number is weighted NHL GPG):
    * weighted NHL GPG (season pts multiplied by season GPG, every season added up, total divided by raw point total)

    Propp - 1016-425-579-1004, 0.99 ppg / 3.76
    Larmer - 1006-441-571-1012, 1.01 ppg / 3.68
    Middleton - 1005-448-540-988, 0.98 ppg / 3.71

    They basically scored 1,000 points in a 1,000 games in the 1980's.

    1009-379-621-1000, 0.99 ppg / 2.82 <-- this is Alfredsson's 1,000th point line. A 1,000 points in a 1,000 games, most of which through the Deadpuck Era.

    Kariya = 989-402-587-989, 1.00 / 2.83

    I agree with you, but to expand:
    Malkin is a franchise player despite playing behind Crosby.
    Roenick was arguably a franchise player despite moving around, though clearly less than Malkin.
    Doan was never a franchise player despite generally being the best player on a team that he never left.

    He has an elite 5 1/2 year period with a generational talent and basically nothing else. It's possible that 'how good Lindros made Leclair look' was a strong selling point during the Lindros induction vote.
     
  9. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2018
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    547
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Gender:
    Male
    Zubov probably has a better case than Leclair.

    He was elite for an extremely long time.
     
    Sadekuuro and trentmccleary like this.
  10. Vanzig

    Vanzig Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2018
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    23
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Musician
    Location:
    Vancouver, B.C.
    - TOM BARRASSO
    - DOUG WILSON
    - RICK MIDDLETON
    - THEO FLEURY
    - STEVE LARMER
    - ALEX MOGILNY

    And “Maybe/Why” Not (After the previous guys I mentioned)
    SERGEI ZUBOV
    JC TREMBLAY
    RICHARD MARTIN
    MIKE VERNON
    CURTIS JOSEPH
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
    Penosity likes this.
  11. trentmccleary

    trentmccleary Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Messages:
    21,424
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Alfie-Ville
    Home Page:
    Brodeur was inducted in 2018 with Martin St. Louis.
     
  12. ES

    ES Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,272
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Finland
    The only recent one who wasn't on the first ballot because it was full has been Igor Larionov. Delayed by one year due to Messier, Stevens, MacInnis and Francis going in. This was extra affected by the lockout because some of those may have still played in 2004-05.
     
  13. HawkNut

    HawkNut Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2017
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    36
    He was very good, but LeClair was just so good during that five period stretch. Even without Lindros, he still produced.

    Zubov didn't accumulate the individual accolades LeClair did.
     
  14. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2018
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    547
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Gender:
    Male
    The individual accolades that you speak of are post season all star selections at Lw, which had far less competition than even RW during that time frame.

    Zubov on the other hand had 7 top Norris finishes over a 13 year time period.

    Zubov has, hands down, a superior playoff resume as well.

    LeClair being good for that 5 year period is notable as it's Lindros induced, there was no notable shift in style of play or increase in skillset from John, merely a change of linemates.
     
  15. HawkNut

    HawkNut Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2017
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    36
    So he should be punished even if he was arguably the best left winger at that time? Why didn't Renberg have the same kind of production if it was all Lindros?

    LeClair had some injuries, but it's not like he was completely useless after Lindros was gone.

    Zubov was good, and I remember him when I was a kid. Admittedly, he was better than I remember, but he doesn't scream as a major omission to me, and if I were to put only one in, it'd be LeClair.
     
  16. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,572
    Likes Received:
    1,906
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Home Page:
    re: leclair vs zubov, i think the truth is somewhere in between.

    i don't think there's any argument that kariya was the best LW during leclair's prime. but leclair is probably #2, slightly ahead of shanahan and tkachuk.

    and renberg did have the same kind of production, until his body fell apart. but i think the case for leclair being a great player on his own is usually his performance for team USA at the '96 world cup.


    i agree with you on the strength of the LW position relative to the D position, but zubov had exactly two top 5 norris finishes in his entire career, bookended by ten seasons where he never finished higher than 8th.

    i don't see a lot of daylight between being the 2nd best LW for five straight years (top 3 for six straight years) and 1994 + 2006 + the ten seasons in between when zubov got 0, 3, 1, 10, 4, 2, 10, 0, 17, and 1 norris votes.

    i also would say that there have been weaker periods for the LW position. kariya, leclair, tkachuk, shanahan is a pretty decent top four. we're not exactly talking about competing with adam graves or gerard gallant here.

    and leclair wasn't spectacular in the playoffs in his prime, but tbh i'm surprised that more people don't bring up the fact that he scored back to back OT GWGs in the '93 finals, followed by two assists in the deciding game.
     
    Troubadour likes this.
  17. HawkNut

    HawkNut Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2017
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    36
    LeClair was also really good at the Salt Lake City Olympics.

    Here's another thing: Is LeClair the best left winger not in the Hall of Fame? Off the top of my head, I would say it's either him or Tkachuk.

    Is Zubov the best defenseman not in? Off the top of my head, he would be third, behind Tremblay and Wilson.
     
  18. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,572
    Likes Received:
    1,906
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Home Page:
    i think patrik elias is the clear best modern LW not in the hall.

    brian propp comes immediately to mind. you could make an argument for kevin stevens due to peak value. i could go either way on leclair vs markus naslund and i hate markus naslund. actually, mats naslund probably belongs in this conversation too if you count non-NHL accomplishments.

    all to say, leclair is a high HOVG to me. a guy like brian bellows might be the low end of that range of LW.

    as for zubov, i have him solidly in the neighbourhood of gary suter. a very very good player, but i have a whole tier of guys between zubov/suter(/gonchar/foote) and tremblay/wilson. guys like desjardins, derian hatcher go in that in between tier, among his contemporaries. farther back, probably carl brewer from what i know of him.
     
    Vanzig likes this.
  19. HawkNut

    HawkNut Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2017
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Stevens had some fantastic years, but I'm not sure how anybody, not necessarily saying you, could dismiss LeClair for being on the same line with Lindros while Stevens was on the same line as Jagr and Lemieux.

    I think of Propp as more of a Hall of Very Good type player than I would LeClair. He just has a lot going for him to be on the outside.

    Fair point on Elias, I didn't think of him.

    Bellows doesn't have the worst argument in the world.

    He has a second team All Star, a Cup and was phenomenal in some of his playoff runs, but he would've had to have scored 500 for me if he didn't have other major awards/honors in the era he played in. I feel the same way about Bernie Nicholls, as I feel he, too, is on the outside looking in.

    Naslund was fantastic during those three years, and LeClair was elite for five. If you want to add on LeClair's contributions to the 1993 Cup run, plus his play in 1996 and 2002 at the international level, the five All Star selections, being the first American to ever score 50 goals three years in a row and knocking at the door of multiple 100 point seasons during the Dead Puck Era, I seriously wouldn't have a major issue with his induction.
     
  20. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,572
    Likes Received:
    1,906
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Home Page:
    bellows is an interesting one. definitely not a HHOFer to me, but he and glenn anderson are two guys where if they didn't switch wings so much in their careers and if they had just been considered primarily LWers both probably would have racked up more all-star first and second teams.

    bellows' career year was at LW, but he played a lot of RW in his career including in montreal in '93. and i could be wrong but i think he was drafted out of the OHL as a center.
     
  21. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,572
    Likes Received:
    1,906
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Home Page:
    i agree that playoff + international leclair > playoff + international markus naslund, unbelievably low as that bar is.

    but outside of that, the comparison is very close imo. leclair has five very good-to-great seasons:

    SeasonAgeGPGAPTS+/-Awards
    1994-95254626285420AS-1
    1995-96268251469721AS-2,Hart-15
    1996-97278250479744AS-2,AS-6,Hart-6,Selke-12
    1997-98288251368730AS-1,Byng-12,Hart-7
    1998-99297643479036AS-2,Byng-7
    1999-0030824037778AS-3

    and here's naslund's best six years:

    SeasonAgeGPGAPTS+/-Awards
    1998-992580363066-13
    2000-012772413475-2AS-3,Hart-11
    2001-02288140509022AS-9,AS-1,Hart-5
    2002-03298248561046AS-1,AS-8,Byng-12,Hart-2,Pearson-1
    2003-04307835498424AS-8,AS-6,AS-1,Byng-12,Hart-5,Selke-55
    2005-063281324779-19
    i feel like naslund's '02 and '03 are so high that they even out the difference between the low end seasons ('99 and '06)
     
  22. Vanzig

    Vanzig Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2018
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    23
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Musician
    Location:
    Vancouver, B.C.
    Lol, that’s it, no posting when loaded on booze
     
  23. trentmccleary

    trentmccleary Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Messages:
    21,424
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Alfie-Ville
    Home Page:
    So Edgar Martinez was just inducted into Cooperstown. I'm not a huge baseball fan, but that looks like an Andreychuk/Housley induction... for those who want to keep on about how selective the other Halls are.

    Leclair shouldn't be going to the HHOF. You can be good for 5.5 years while playing with a generational talent and basically nothing otherwise. Kariya just waited 4 years to get in and Naslund probably won't ever, but they had better careers outside of their best 5-6 years than Leclair did.

    Next best 5 years (Raw data, which benefits Leclair a lot. It's actually worse than it looks):
    Kariya = 82-26-47-73, 0.31, 0.89
    Naslund = 80-27-33-60, 0.33, 0.75
    Leclair = 75-22-27-49, 0.29, 0.65

    Sergei Zubov
    Had 13 full seasons in the NHL, two half seasons and a 10 gamer. The worst he finished in points in his 13 mostly full seasons was 16th. Between 1998-2008, he averaged 26 mins a game and 3 on the PK. He was a key part of 2 Stanley Cup winners and a SC finalist. He led the 1994 Rangers in regular season scoring during their President's Trophy win and eventual Stanley Cup win. He was elite for his entire career, not just 1/3 of it.

    Ranks per season among D-men
    Pts = 2, 2, 2, 4, 8, 8, 9, 9, 11, 13, 13, 14, 16
    PPG = 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 10, 12, 13, 14, 14, 18, 19
     
  24. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    48,097
    Likes Received:
    2,534
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    Lindros was injured enough to know how peak LeClair played without him. And in the NHL, LeClair scored at an almost identical rate with and without Lindros. But his +/- was much worse without Lindros.

    And of course, there was no Lindros on Team USA when LeClair was excellent in the 1996 World Cup.

    With Kariya's induction, LeClair has the best All-Star record of any eligible player not in the HHOF. I realize it was at a pretty weak position, but it hasn't stopped literally every other LW or RW with a similar record from being inducted.
     
  25. Penosity

    Penosity Back in Black, Red, and White

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    5,757
    Likes Received:
    634
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Gender:
    Male
    Doug Wilson absolutely
    Barrasso too

    It’s a shame these two aren’t already in.
     
    scott clam, Vanzig and frisco like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"