Line Combos: Helm to start on wing with Datsyuk

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Helm
Nyquist-Weiss-Franzen
Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco(Alfie)
Miller-Glendening-Abdelkader
Cleary, Andersson

Kronwall-Ericsson
DeKeyser-Smith
Kindl-Quincey
Lashoff

Howard
Gustavsson

Actually I like this lineup alot, I just wish we were better defensively.

 

[Frk It]

Lots of options though for a guy some still believe is the best coach in the world.

I am on record if we are splitting Datsyuk and Zetterberg, I roll with Nyquist - Zetterberg - Franzen as our first line.

Should it be Helm - Datsyuk it becomes a case of needing to re-sign Alfie pretty badly my eyes. That or we can try Tatar with Dats before giving Jurco the spot who I think will work better. Tatar is puck dominate, he needs it and that concerns me when bumping him up, it is one of the reasons he and Sheahan work so well together. Riley very rarely holds the puck except on the boards, very direct player they compliment each other so well.

Of course Mantha can play both sides and seems to prefer his off-wing. I still think he is a little far off. Pulkkinen is another guy that could make a case if he has had a great off-season. His skating has improved a lot and might be an ideal fit with Helm and Datsyuk in terms of covering what strides remain, though of note Datsyuk likes to be the high player in the zone, part of why I lean towards Jurco and Alfie. They can play down low and go there a lot, Pulkkinen and Mantha would have to show me more in that regard to flank Datsyuk as he will be out high, he always is.

Good point, I campaigned for Franzen-Z-Nyquist any chance I got last year. That line gelled incredibly well. I actually believe that Franzen- Z-Nyquist can be just as dominant as Zetterberg-Datsyuk-whoever. And if you can do that and still have Datsyuk left over to center the other top 6 line you should absolutely do that, in the name of depth.

Franzen-Z-Nyquist gives you a very potent top line, and if you play the kid line as line 3, that line is really more of a 2B than a 3rd line. And they're all super young, with the potential to keep getting more chemistry and getting better. Which is a scary thought. Think it could be our 2nd line in a couple years.

Issue always comes down to this... If you split up dats and z, who do you give Datsyuk on that other top 6 line? Also Weiss has to go somewhere?

Otherwise this makes sense

Franzen-Z-Nyquist
Weiss-Datsyuk-????
Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco
Whatever x 3

If that's what Babcock is looking at I think he would go Weiss-Datsyuk-Abby, and I think that line would royally suck.

 

[Winger98]

Lots of options though for a guy some still believe is the best coach in the world.

I am on record if we are splitting Datsyuk and Zetterberg, I roll with Nyquist - Zetterberg - Franzen as our first line.

Should it be Helm - Datsyuk it becomes a case of needing to re-sign Alfie pretty badly my eyes. That or we can try Tatar with Dats before giving Jurco the spot who I think will work better. Tatar is puck dominate, he needs it and that concerns me when bumping him up, it is one of the reasons he and Sheahan work so well together. Riley very rarely holds the puck except on the boards, very direct player they compliment each other so well.

Of course Mantha can play both sides and seems to prefer his off-wing. I still think he is a little far off. Pulkkinen is another guy that could make a case if he has had a great off-season. His skating has improved a lot and might be an ideal fit with Helm and Datsyuk in terms of covering what strides remain, though of note Datsyuk likes to be the high player in the zone, part of why I lean towards Jurco and Alfie. They can play down low and go there a lot, Pulkkinen and Mantha would have to show me more in that regard to flank Datsyuk as he will be out high, he always is.

If we're splitting Z&D, I'd be tempted to roll Weiss at 3C and move Sheahan to Datsyuk's wing. A lot of the reasons Sheahan works well with Tatar would make him a fit with Datsyuk, and it would provide a good sized body on that line.

I'm not a fan of the Helm on a scoring line bit, so I'm for re-signing Alfie or bringing up one of Pulkkinen/Mantha for a top9 spot, but I don't think the kids have a realistic shot at that. We could also roll Weiss on that offwing and slide Helm back in at 3C. I think Babcock is just hung up on Helm being in the top9 for whatever reason, and that's possibly driving some of the personnel decisions more than it should.

Here's a quick idea of what I'd like to see if we're splitting Z/D.

Nyquist-Z-Franzen
Sheahan-Datsyuk-Alfredsson/Pulkkinen/Mantha
Tatar-Weiss-Jurco
Abdelkader-Helm-Glendening

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If we're splitting Z&D, I'd be tempted to roll Weiss at 3C and move Sheahan to Datsyuk's wing. A lot of the reasons Sheahan works well with Tatar would make him a fit with Datsyuk, and it would provide a good sized body on that line.

I'm not a fan of the Helm on a scoring line bit, so I'm for re-signing Alfie or bringing up one of Pulkkinen/Mantha for a top9 spot, but I don't think the kids have a realistic shot at that. We could also roll Weiss on that offwing and slide Helm back in at 3C. I think Babcock is just hung up on Helm being in the top9 for whatever reason, and that's possibly driving some of the personnel decisions more than it should.

Here's a quick idea of what I'd like to see if we're splitting Z/D.

Nyquist-Z-Franzen
Sheahan-Datsyuk-Alfredsson/Pulkkinen/Mantha
Tatar-Weiss-Jurco
Abdelkader-Helm-Glendening

Sheahan is an intriguing option at wing. Given the state of the team though and the pipeline I prefer him to develop at #3C for a full season this year. I think we are going to count on him to be the #2C at some point and that is why I am reticent to move him out to the wing just yet.

Though I do agree he would mesh well in the winger role with Dats and it might bring more physicality into his game.

I actually think at some point especially in the post-season you could see them role center depth to really suffocate and opponent. In this plan Sheahan would probably shift out wide and it is a wrinkle Babcock can throw at people if our center depth stays healthy that even some of the larger contenders would not enjoy assuming our defense progresses this year.

 

[Frk It]

Damn we have a lot of good forwards to work with. Really hope we don't have to settle for watching crap that doesn't make sense for the first few months.

 

[Winger98]

Sheahan is an intriguing option at wing. Given the state of the team though and the pipeline I prefer him to develop at #3C for a full season this year. I think we are going to count on him to be the #2C at some point and that is why I am reticent to move him out to the wing just yet.

Though I do agree he would mesh well in the winger role with Dats and it might bring more physicality into his game.

I actually think at some point especially in the post-season you could see them role center depth to really suffocate and opponent. In this plan Sheahan would probably shift out wide and it is a wrinkle Babcock can throw at people if our center depth stays healthy that even some of the larger contenders would not enjoy assuming our defense progresses this year.

Depending on if they want to take some wear and tear off Datsyuk, they could also shift Dats to wing and keep Sheahan at center. Datsyuk being able to not bear the defensive burden so much might be interesting.

Agree about our center depth. With Z, D, Weiss, and Sheahan, I so want to see Helm center the fourth line and just roll'em. I wouldn't be uncomfortable with those guys matching up with nearly anyone, and it should just run teams into the ice. Forcing Andersson/Glendening into a center spot on the fourth line seems like a way to needlessly weaken that ability to roll lines and I just don't get it.

Damn we have a lot of good forwards to work with. Really hope we don't have to settle for watching crap that doesn't make sense for the first few months.

Same worry here. For me, we're already seeing hints of it with Helm being rumored as wing on a scoring line. I think we're almost definitely going to see it on the blueline with Kindl/Lashoff. And I'm betting Cleary is penciled in. They can say he's not, that everyone's got to earn it, but the contract they handed out says otherwise.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Damn we have a lot of good forwards to work with. Really hope we don't have to settle for watching crap that doesn't make sense for the first few months.

The positive thing is that there just aren't enough bad forwards anymore for that to really happen. Most of the roster is capable and productive. Even if we get Cleary on the top line by some cruel twist of the universe, that still leaves two excellent second and third lines to watch. What's even better is that the callup guys are exciting players too.

Whatever the situation, this year's hockey is going to be more fun to watch than last year's hockey. Well, provided they stay healthy, anyway. and if they don't, we're taking the train to Jack Eichel town.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I know he isn't popular because well he doesn't score. But in my opinion Luke Glendening gets better every year he has been in hockey. A tireless worker and an ideal fourth liner that can play C/RW. I would be fine with Helm centering him, but I am okay rolling lines with him in the middle. Ideally I would love to see Abdelkader - Helm - Glendening ride the **** out of other teams stars for half the game, crush d-man on the forecheck and yap away.

If we get the lines rolling and that is the fourth line we should be a nightmare to play up front. Assuming Howard bounces back and one of the kids takes a spot on D maybe two along with progressions form Smith and DeKeyser we can be scary bunch. I just don't know that the back-end comes along fast enough. If it does lookout, we are in a weaker conference and can do a lot of damage. I kind of believe that is for next season not this coming one, hope people understand which one I am talking about. However, it isn't as kumbaya as some make it out to be that if that back line comes together we have a lot of various looks that will stress teams out a great deal.

Professional sports are very often about matchups. One thing about how this team has been grown and nurtured is you can see the matchups they can really put on people. Now Babcock could be right that our left-handed dominant weakness will be pinged to death, but assuming they overcome this through internal growth and some roster tweaks this team has some fascinating potential given some of the pieces on hand. That might be a touch optimistic but I really do believe that, I just unfortunately think it is more something we will see the following year as it will take a little longer to come together. But should it come together at the 60 or 70 game mark Holland's you just got to get in mantra people kill will have a lot of substance.

The Wings for the first time in a couple seasons have a strength, they are versatile up front with depth and a lot of different looks they can give.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Good point, I campaigned for Franzen-Z-Nyquist any chance I got last year. That line gelled incredibly well. I actually believe that Franzen- Z-Nyquist can be just as dominant as Zetterberg-Datsyuk-whoever. And if you can do that and still have Datsyuk left over to center the other top 6 line you should absolutely do that, in the name of depth.

Franzen-Z-Nyquist gives you a very potent top line, and if you play the kid line as line 3, that line is really more of a 2B than a 3rd line. And they're all super young, with the potential to keep getting more chemistry and getting better. Which is a scary thought. Think it could be our 2nd line in a couple years.

Issue always comes down to this... If you split up dats and z, who do you give Datsyuk on that other top 6 line? Also Weiss has to go somewhere?

Otherwise this makes sense

Franzen-Z-Nyquist
Weiss-Datsyuk-????
Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco
Whatever x 3

If that's what Babcock is looking at I think he would go Weiss-Datsyuk-Abby, and I think that line would royally suck.

I like the idea of playing Weiss with Datsyuk. He can take draws and is also defensively responsible. Hate the idea of Helm or Abby on Datsyuk's wing but feel no particular need to belabor that point until it actually happens in real games this season.

 

[Winger98]

I don't hate Glendening. I like him more than Miller, and my ideal fourth line has him with Gator and Helm. I just think that when we slide him to center, and then move Miller into the other wing spot, we go from having a fourth line that could be really good and have an identity, to one that is merely "solid" and won't hurt us.

 

[Frk It]

I don't hate Glendening either... But Miller-Helm-Abby is the 4th line we should strive for. Ideally.

 

[joe89]

I don't hate Glendening. I like him more than Miller, and my ideal fourth line has him with Gator and Helm. I just think that when we slide him to center, and then move Miller into the other wing spot, we go from having a fourth line that could be really good and have an identity, to one that is merely "solid" and won't hurt us.

I don't hate Glendening either... But Miller-Helm-Abby is the 4th line we should strive for. Ideally.

Glendening should come in and win his spot like everybody else. I'll be worried if such a fringe talent gets his spot on a silver platter. The affection for below average players has to end starting this camp, and roster decisions have to be made thereafter. This is Ken Holland's chance to show he's learned anything the last couple of years.

 

[Winger98]

Glendening should come in and win his spot like everybody else. I'll be worried if such a fringe talent gets his spot on a silver platter. The affection for below average players has to end starting this camp, and roster decisions have to be made thereafter. This is Ken Holland's chance to show he's learned anything the last couple of years.

He should definitely earn it, but it's also the fourth line. I mean, I'm pretty certain Pulkkinen is a better player than Glendening in most ways, but as a fourth line agitator/PKer? I have a hard time seeing it, though Datsyuk got his start on the fourth line, didn't he?

If we were willing to forego the whole bit about wanting our top6 guys to learn to score in GR first, and just ice the 12 best forwards, our lineup could get really interesting. And I know the argument would be about special teams, but I think we'd have the versatility to cover for that a bit.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't hate Glendening either... But Miller-Helm-Abby is the 4th line we should strive for. Ideally.

I like Abdelkader better on the left and I like the physicality and forecheck of the Abdelkader - Helm - Glendening line. I also like the idea that they can be thrown over the boards in any zone and any faceoff circle as all are fairly good on the draw. This would be on Abdelkader to bring the things defensively that Miller gets credit for in some parts, he has to maintain his gaps and challenge shooters. But when I run it through my mind I like it more.

Miller and Andersson as bottom six fillers with Pulkkinen and Mantha as top 6 callup players is interesting. You hold some cards as soon as Cleary gets his bonus and is hopefully cut with the promise held onto or in the unlikely event Cleary is a bottom line contributor and his knee has been fixed.

As we have been saying lots of cards, but for me Glendening brings things to the table that I want on my fourth line whether it be out on the RW or at C. I like the guy, I have even begrudgingly as a MSU fan when he was at U of M. He impresses me, I want him on the ice from an accountability standpoint and the fact he generally makes things happen. Miller has his games, but he also has incredibly invisible games. If the PK struggles he draws in as that is a strength, but not something I am crazy about as our PK has struggled with him on it.

Of course a part of how I would fix the PK is a heavy dosage of Riley Sheahan on it as I think he is already a very good NHL caliber PK player and has the potential by the end of the season to be the best we have in that department.

A unit of Sheahan and Glendening is something I want to see on the PK, it is my top 5 of things I want to see deployed from a personnel standpoint, 1.) Smith on the PP. Could be fun to create the full list will think on it, but I know that will be in the top 5.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

In regards to the possibility of 13, 40, and 43 playing together, I mentioned this previously but I'd actually line it up as:

Helm-Zetterberg-Datsyuk

I think Datsyuk can play the right side as well as he can play the left and I actually think he prefers attacking down the right side. Think of all the times he's coming down the right boards and either quickly pulls up or flings a rocket backhand pass onto a trailing players stick. Moving him to wing might take away some of the wear and tear as the season progresses and it's not like Z can't handle center. Plus you just have them switch for faceoffs in the defensive zone or important offensive zone draws.

I don't think there's any question that we have a lot of pieces up front to put together a really good forward group. It's Babcock's turn to make sure he puts them together effectively though. Hopefully this knew assistant can move him away from some of his stubborn tendencies more quickly.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I also really love the idea of Abby-Helm-Glendening. I think it would be one of the more physical, quickest, grinding lines that we've had in a while. I think Glendening becomes a lot more aggressive physically and on the forecheck when he's playing on the wing and we really get to see his speed more.

This assumes that Jurco is on the team though and Alfie is back.

 

[joe89]

He should definitely earn it, but it's also the fourth line. I mean, I'm pretty certain Pulkkinen is a better player than Glendening in most ways, but as a fourth line agitator/PKer? I have a hard time seeing it, though Datsyuk got his start on the fourth line, didn't he?

If we were willing to forego the whole bit about wanting our top6 guys to learn to score in GR first, and just ice the 12 best forwards, our lineup could get really interesting. And I know the argument would be about special teams, but I think we'd have the versatility to cover for that a bit.

The scenario I see is rather how a Mantha and/or Jurco come in and play lights out in camp, which could naturally lead to bumping Abdelkader down to the 4th line, Glendening/Miller out of the lineup and subsequently maybe waiving one or two expendable guys. Don't even get me started on Cleary. But instead of bolstering our top9, while pushing good players down to the 4th line(which is a very good thing), we send the better player down because of a "roster crunch".

I'm not worried about depth. We have five guys in the minors who could probably step in tomorrow and not look out of place. We have another dozen who's really trending in the right direction and could be ready within the next couple of seasons, plus a dozen beyond them that could become NHLers with time. Waive the fringe guys who don't win their spot and be done with it. Chances are high they won't be grabbed off waivers either.

 

[Frk It]

The scenario I see is rather how a Mantha and/or Jurco come in and play lights out in camp, which could naturally lead to bumping Abdelkader down to the 4th line, Glendening/Miller out of the lineup and subsequently maybe waiving one or two expendable guys. Don't even get me started on Cleary. But instead of bolstering our top9, while pushing good players down to the 4th line(which is a very good thing), we send the better player down because of a "roster crunch".

I'm not worried about depth. We have five guys in the minors who could probably step in tomorrow and not look out of place. We have another dozen who's really trending in the right direction and could be ready within the next couple of seasons, plus a dozen beyond them that could become NHLers with time. Waive the fringe guys who don't win their spot and be done with it. Chances are high they won't be grabbed off waivers either.

Sounds great, I love it. But this is not how the Red Wings have operated recently. So while I would love to see it, I sure as hell wouldn't bet on it.

This is Ken Holland's chance to show he's learned anything the last couple of years.

Scary thought.

 

[joe89]

Sounds great, I love it. But this is not how the Red Wings have operated recently. So while I would love to see it, I sure as hell wouldn't bet on it.



Scary thought.

I know. It's not like I keep my hopes high. We don't even waive our 14th forward. We gave Emmerton 157 NHL appearances. No words necessary.

 

[Winger98]

Of course a part of how I would fix the PK is a heavy dosage of Riley Sheahan on it as I think he is already a very good NHL caliber PK player and has the potential by the end of the season to be the best we have in that department.

A unit of Sheahan and Glendening is something I want to see on the PK, it is my top 5 of things I want to see deployed from a personnel standpoint, 1.) Smith on the PP. Could be fun to create the full list will think on it, but I know that will be in the top 5.

If we can distribute more ES time to the lower lines in the regular season, one way to fix the PK is to shift some of Z&D's time there. It's something Bowman used to do in the regular season, playing the bottom lines more and having Yzerman and Feds out there in the higher leverage special teams situations. He would then recalibrate in the playoffs a bit where penalties dried up a tad, and then we'd see Feds and Stevie get more ES time and Draper/Maltby shoulder more PK burden. We really haven't had the depth to do that for the past few years...but we do this year.

The scenario I see is rather how a Mantha and/or Jurco come in and play lights out in camp, which could naturally lead to bumping Abdelkader down to the 4th line, Glendening/Miller out of the lineup and subsequently maybe waiving one or two expendable guys. Don't even get me started on Cleary. But instead of bolstering our top9, while pushing good players down to the 4th line(which is a very good thing), we send the better player down because of a "roster crunch".

I'm not worried about depth. We have five guys in the minors who could probably step in tomorrow and not look out of place. We have another dozen who's really trending in the right direction and could be ready within the next couple of seasons, plus a dozen beyond them that could become NHLers with time. Waive the fringe guys who don't win their spot and be done with it. Chances are high they won't be grabbed off waivers either.

Agree completely. Big reason I was against signing mediocre UFA who just get crammed into the already robust middle of our roster (quincey, anyone?). We have some vets who just aren't overly special players, at this point there's no reason their jobs should be gifted to them over a kid just for the sake of organizational depth.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Helm-Datsyuk-Mantha
Nyquist-Z-Franzen
Jurco-Weiss-Tatar
Abby-Sheahan-Glendening
Good ol' Clears

Kronwall-E
Smith-DeKeyser
Ouellet/Sproul-Quincey
Lashoff

If Kindl doesn't perform in preseason (and I fully expect him not to), he needs to be shipped out for half a bag of sand

 

[Mister Ed]

Gosh darn it...

Darren Helm skated briefly today, after staying off the ice for a few days due to a sore groin.

"He had a bit of a tender groin last week and at this time of the year we encourage guys to not push it," Holland said. "We expect everything is good going forward."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/09/daniel_alfredsson_might_not_be.html

 

[Frk It]

Gosh darn it...



http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/09/daniel_alfredsson_might_not_be.html

Don't think it's a big deal at all. Groin issues when guys start going is normal. It's a good thing he says they aren't going to push it.

Groin problems in January is what is an issue.

 

[Mister Ed]

Don't think it's a big deal at all. Groin issues when guys start going is normal. It's a good thing he says they aren't going to push it.

Groin problems in January is what is an issue.

I too don't think it is a big deal, but then again, this is Helm we're talking about.

 

[chances14]

Don't think it's a big deal at all. Groin issues when guys start going is normal. It's a good thing he says they aren't going to push it.

Groin problems in January is what is an issue.

well you can't blame wings fans for being a little anxious about any injuries after the last couple years