Heiskanen vs Dahlin - Better hockey career?

[Mestaruus]

When both have retired as players from their ice hockey careers, who will be remembered as the better hockey player?

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[Star Ocean]

How should we know?

 

[Spirits]

Quinn Hughes.

 

[LuckyBoeser]

Heiskanen is quite clearly having the better season. However, I still think Dahlin will be better long term. I went with him.

 

[ijuka]

I think Heiskanen will be better. Dahlin looks to be following in Ekblad's footsteps, whereas Heiskanen's trajectory seems to align better with Doughty's.

 

[Zamuz]

Heiskanen, Dahlin and Makar are IMO all very close.

Not sure why Its always about Dahlin and Heiskanen

 

[Barkkonen]

At the moment, it's Heiskanen vs Makar. Dahlin needs 1 more year to reach those 2 I believe.
Edit: oops didn't apparently even read the title. I think they take turns year to year which one is better.

 

[AB13]

Dahlin has a PPG of 0.57 in the NHL, Heiskanen a PPG of 0.47. That is a large difference considering Dahlin has been a year younger for his entire NHL career and playing with a very poor Buffalo team. One year at that age makes an absolutely enormous difference in terms of production, which could be seen in tons of examples.

Dahlin is much better at moving the puck, and despite the narrative that Heiskanen is better defensively, their defensive stats during their entire tenure in the NHL are comparable, and Dahlin doesn't struggle as much with physical duels as Heiskanen does. Dahlin has a unique skillset that hasn't been seen in a young defenseman for decades, he could really become close to a 100 point defenseman with an elite defensive game. Both are great talents but Dahlin wins this comfortably. Comparing their potentials at the moment is unfair to Dahlin, Heiskanen doesn't have close to the offensive creativity of either Dahlin or Makar.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

I think Heiskanen will be better. Dahlin looks to be following in Ekblad's footsteps, whereas Heiskanen's trajectory seems to align better with Doughty's.

Ekblad wishes his footsteps were ahead of Dahlin.

 

[JFG]

Haven’t we had this thread several times already?

 

[jonlin]

Dahlin has a PPG of 0.57 in the NHL, Heiskanen a PPG of 0.47. That is a large difference considering Dahlin has been a year younger for his entire NHL career and playing with a very poor Buffalo team. One year at that age makes an absolutely enormous difference in terms of production, which could be seen in tons of examples.

Dahlin is much better at moving the puck, and despite the narrative that Heiskanen is better defensively, their defensive stats during their entire tenure in the NHL are comparable, and Dahlin doesn't struggle as much with physical duels as Heiskanen does. Dahlin has a unique skillset that hasn't been seen in a young defenseman for decades, he could really become close to a 100 point defenseman with an elite defensive game. Both are great talents but Dahlin wins this comfortably. Comparing their potentials at the moment is unfair to Dahlin, Heiskanen doesn't have close to the offensive creativity of either Dahlin or Makar.

So wrong at so many points. Dahlin plays sheltered offensive minutes. Heiskanen plays all situations. Dahlin has more PP time and more offensive starts. Dahlin gets benched when the game is on the line - Heiskanen gets more playtime. Heiskanen "not close in offensive creativity"? Have you even seen Heiskanen play? Makar is offensively the best atm. Heiskanen and Dahlin quite equal. Heiskanen is better than Makar defensively and a lot better than Dahlin.

For now:

1. Makar
2. Heiskanen

3.Dahlin

 

[AB13]

So wrong at so many points. Dahlin plays sheltered offensive minutes. Heiskanen plays all situations. Dahlin has more PP time and more offensive starts. Dahlin gets benched when the game is on the line - Heiskanen gets more playtime. Heiskanen "not close in offensive creativity"? Have you even seen Heiskanen play? Makar is offensively the best atm. Heiskanen and Dahlin quite equal. Heiskanen is better than Makar defensively and a lot better than Dahlin.

For now:

1. Makar
2. Heiskanen

3.Dahlin

Dahlin playing less is irrelevant, he has still performed better. Ice time doesn't matter, if it would McCabe, Orlov, Zadorov, Provorov, Petry, Edler, Morrisey and Ellis would be elite players. Dahlin is a full year younger yet his defensive stats have not been worse throughout his career, that is a fact. Since Dahlins defensive stats are better in many categories, how can you say what you are doing? Buffalo rotate their defensive pairs very evenly, everyone plays similar minutes, that is just their policy. If Dahlin got even more defensive responsibility he would shine even more.

How are Dahlin and Heiskanen quite equal defensively when Dahlin has outscored him by a huge margin in the NHL? Dahlin is miles ahead in offensive creativity of course, every offensive metric says that! Heiskanen plays more offensive minutes too but still can't score or create close to as much as Dahlin despite playing with horrendous teammates. Dahlin would be close to a PPG in Dallas.

Makar, Heiskanen and Dahlin are not the same age, any of them, so comparing them now is a bit strange. If we look at their U19 and U20 seasons, Dahlin blows all of them out of the water. Dahlin has been better than Heiskanen every season in his entire life.

In terms of potential it has to be
1. Dahlin


2. Makar
3. Hughes
4. Heiskanen

 

[Zub]

Dahlin playing less is irrelevant, he has still performed better. Ice time doesn't matter, if it would McCabe, Orlov, Zadorov, Provorov, Petry, Edler, Morrisey and Ellis would be elite players. Dahlin is a full year younger yet his defensive stats have not been worse throughout his career, that is a fact. Since Dahlins defensive stats are better in many categories, how can you say what you are doing? Buffalo rotate their defensive pairs very evenly, everyone plays similar minutes, that is just their policy. If Dahlin got even more defensive responsibility he would shine even more.

How are Dahlin and Heiskanen quite equal defensively when Dahlin has outscored him by a huge margin in the NHL? Dahlin is miles ahead in offensive creativity of course, every offensive metric says that! Heiskanen plays more offensive minutes too but still can't score or create close to as much as Dahlin despite playing with horrendous teammates. Dahlin would be close to a PPG in Dallas.

Makar, Heiskanen and Dahlin are not the same age, any of them, so comparing them now is a bit strange. If we look at their U19 and U20 seasons, Dahlin blows all of them out of the water. Dahlin has been better than Heiskanen every season in his entire life.

In terms of potential it has to be
1. Dahlin


2. Makar
3. Hughes
4. Heiskanen

First off, 7 months younger is not a full year last time i checked. And how come Heiskanen has better advanced stats this season, and yet you claim that Dahlin has? And yes ice time is relevant. Heiskanen plays night in and out against the best. And hasnt gotten that much PP time. Where as Dahlin gets sheltered offensive minutes. Plays vs weaker competition, and doesnt kill penalties. Dahlin is NOT better than Heiskanen defensively. It's just not how you say it is.

 

[ijuka]

Dahlin playing less is irrelevant, he has still performed better. Ice time doesn't matter, if it would McCabe, Orlov, Zadorov, Provorov, Petry, Edler, Morrisey and Ellis would be elite players. Dahlin is a full year younger yet his defensive stats have not been worse throughout his career, that is a fact. Since Dahlins defensive stats are better in many categories, how can you say what you are doing? Buffalo rotate their defensive pairs very evenly, everyone plays similar minutes, that is just their policy. If Dahlin got even more defensive responsibility he would shine even more.

How are Dahlin and Heiskanen quite equal defensively when Dahlin has outscored him by a huge margin in the NHL? Dahlin is miles ahead in offensive creativity of course, every offensive metric says that! Heiskanen plays more offensive minutes too but still can't score or create close to as much as Dahlin despite playing with horrendous teammates. Dahlin would be close to a PPG in Dallas.

Makar, Heiskanen and Dahlin are not the same age, any of them, so comparing them now is a bit strange. If we look at their U19 and U20 seasons, Dahlin blows all of them out of the water. Dahlin has been better than Heiskanen every season in his entire life.

In terms of potential it has to be
1. Dahlin


2. Makar
3. Hughes
4. Heiskanen

Dahlin's among the lower end of his team for advanced stats, whereas Heiskanen is among his team's leaders. Ice time does matter, or at least the situations the player plays in. Heiskanen is his team's #1D playing all situations, while Dahlin's in a sheltered role. Indeed, most players perform better in a sheltered role.

If we look past production, I believe Heiskanen's skating is something that Dahlin just will be unable to reach.

 

[AB13]

First off, 7 months younger is not a full year last time i checked. And how come Heiskanen has better advanced stats this season, and yet you claim that Dahlin has? And yes ice time is relevant. Heiskanen plays night in and out against the best. And hasnt gotten that much PP time. Where as Dahlin gets sheltered offensive minutes. Plays vs weaker competition, and doesnt kill penalties. Dahlin is NOT better than Heiskanen defensively. It's just not how you say it is.

First off, 9 months younger, which is a full seasons difference.

When talking about advanced stats, I am not talking about just this season, it is ridiculous to just base things off of a 22 game sample size. I am talking about advanced stats since they started playing in the NHL which is a much larger sample size. Dahlin would be a brilliant penalty killer if he got the opportunity, his defensive stats are very good.

If Dahlin got Heiskanens opportunity to play 3 more even strength minutes a night, and play with much better players than he currently is, he would outscore Heiskanen even more.

Why are you saying Heiskanen doesn’t play a lot on the Power Play? He clearly does. If that wouldn’t have been the case, arguing by your logic that playing defensive minutes automatically makes you a better defender , that would mean Heiskanen isn’t good offensively. I am not saying that is the case, but you have to see how thinking the way you are isn’t objective at all.

 

[AB13]

Dahlin's among the lower end of his team for advanced stats, whereas Heiskanen is among his team's leaders. Ice time does matter, or at least the situations the player plays in. Heiskanen is his team's #1D playing all situations, while Dahlin's in a sheltered role. Indeed, most players perform better in a sheltered role.

If we look past production, I believe Heiskanen's skating is something that Dahlin just will be unable to reach.

Dahlin is a better skater than Heiskanen. Dahlins edgework is miles ahead, sure he is slightly slower, but his edgework still makes him a better skater. I do not think Heiskanen will ever come close to the puck moving ability, skill, puck handling or offensive creativity of Dahlin, considering he is already quite a way behind.

Since Dahlin is putting up solid defensive number and has put up better defensive numbers than Heiskanen since getting into the NHL in 2018, nothing suggests he wouldn’t be able to do as good of a defensive job. Offensively, Dahlin has always been and will always be better.

 

[jonlin]

Dahlin is a better skater than Heiskanen. Dahlins edgework is miles ahead, sure he is slightly slower, but his edgework still makes him a better skater. I do not think Heiskanen will ever come close to the puck moving ability, skill, puck handling or offensive creativity of Dahlin, considering he is already quite a way behind.

Since Dahlin is putting up solid defensive number and has put up better defensive numbers than Heiskanen since getting into the NHL in 2018, nothing suggests he wouldn’t be able to do as good of a defensive job. Offensively, Dahlin has always been and will always be better.

Clearly you talk out of yours and have no clue whatsoever on Heiskanen. Playing PK takes out of 5vs5 production. Playing PK does mean you are thrusted defensively and Dahlin isnt. Dahlins defensive numbers are worse than Heiskanens.

Heiskanen
30gp 7g 13a 20p ( 2nd on team ) +8 ( Best on team )
TOI 24.43 min/g
Offensive zone starts 51.6% Defensive z, starts 48,4% 5vs5
PP 2.21 min/g
PK 3.01 min/g

Dahlin

24gp 1g 15a ( 5th on team ) +2 ( 10th on team )
TOI 18.59 min/g
Offensive zone starts 60.7% D-zone starts 39,3% 5vs5
PP 3,42 min / g
PK 0,08min/g

All advanced stats show that Dallas clearly is a better team when Heiskanen is on the ice. And thoose stats are better than sheltered Dahlins... Dahlin plays no PK at all and this says all about his defensive abilities. If Dahlin would be better, he would get more icetime.​

 

[jonlin]

Dahlin playing less is irrelevant, he has still performed better. Ice time doesn't matter, if it would McCabe, Orlov, Zadorov, Provorov, Petry, Edler, Morrisey and Ellis would be elite players. Dahlin is a full year younger yet his defensive stats have not been worse throughout his career, that is a fact. Since Dahlins defensive stats are better in many categories, how can you say what you are doing? Buffalo rotate their defensive pairs very evenly, everyone plays similar minutes, that is just their policy. If Dahlin got even more defensive responsibility he would shine even more.

How are Dahlin and Heiskanen quite equal defensively when Dahlin has outscored him by a huge margin in the NHL? Dahlin is miles ahead in offensive creativity of course, every offensive metric says that! Heiskanen plays more offensive minutes too but still can't score or create close to as much as Dahlin despite playing with horrendous teammates. Dahlin would be close to a PPG in Dallas.

Makar, Heiskanen and Dahlin are not the same age, any of them, so comparing them now is a bit strange. If we look at their U19 and U20 seasons, Dahlin blows all of them out of the water. Dahlin has been better than Heiskanen every season in his entire life.

In terms of potential it has to be
1. Dahlin


2. Makar
3. Hughes
4. Heiskanen

"Dahlin and Heiskanen quite equal defensively when Dahlin has outscored him" - Defense is scoring?

"Heiskanen plays more offensive minutes too but still can't score or create close to as much as Dahlin despite playing with horrendous teammates" - Actually Dahlin plays 1.21 min/g more PP, that is usually offensive minutes in my book. Dahlin plays PP1 with Eichel, Olofsson, Reinhardt, Skinner who all have better points than Dallas 3rd best in points Radulov with 15p

Check your facts before posting.

 

[ijuka]

Dahlin is a better skater than Heiskanen.

Yikes.

Also, Heiskanen is #2 on his team in scoring, 3 points behind the #1.

 

[AB13]

Clearly you talk out of yours and have no clue whatsoever on Heiskanen. Playing PK takes out of 5vs5 production. Playing PK does mean you are thrusted defensively and Dahlin isnt. Dahlins defensive numbers are worse than Heiskanens.

Heiskanen
30gp 7g 13a 20p ( 2nd on team ) +8 ( Best on team )
TOI 24.43 min/g
Offensive zone starts 51.6% Defensive z, starts 48,4% 5vs5
PP 2.21 min/g
PK 3.01 min/g

Dahlin

24gp 1g 15a ( 5th on team ) +2 ( 10th on team )
TOI 18.59 min/g
Offensive zone starts 60.7% D-zone starts 39,3% 5vs5
PP 3,42 min / g
PK 0,08min/g

All advanced stats show that Dallas clearly is a better team when Heiskanen is on the ice. And thoose stats are better than sheltered Dahlins... Dahlin plays no PK at all and this says all about his defensive abilities. If Dahlin would be better, he would get more icetime.​

Since they got into the NHL

Dahlin

106 games, 10 goals, 50 assists, 60 points 0.57 ppg

Heiskanen

112 games, 19 goals, 34 assists, 53 points, 0.47 ppg

That is an incredibly massive difference considering age.

Why are defensive starts relevant? Scoring on a shift starting in the defensive zone is possible.

The only relevant stat Heiskanen does “ better” in is ice time. The only reason Dahlin doesn’t play PK is his coach severely misusing him.

Being trusted defensively doesn’t mean you are good defensively. Coaches often trust the wrong players. Dahlin has better 5v5 defensive metrics than Heiskanen since 2018! If he got the opportunity to play PK, he would be considered a better defender too. Regardless of how good they are defensively, I don’t think it can compensate for such a large difference in offensive quality.

If as you argue, being trusted defensively means you are good offensively, that must mean being trusted offensively means you are good offensively. Therefore, Heiskanen is not great offensively according to you? Or do these standards not apply to Heiskanen?

 

[AB13]

"Dahlin and Heiskanen quite equal defensively when Dahlin has outscored him" - Defense is scoring?

"Heiskanen plays more offensive minutes too but still can't score or create close to as much as Dahlin despite playing with horrendous teammates" - Actually Dahlin plays 1.21 min/g more PP, that is usually offensive minutes in my book. Dahlin plays PP1 with Eichel, Olofsson, Reinhardt, Skinner who all have better points than Dallas 3rd best in points Radulov with 15p

Check your facts before posting.

I said the wrong word. When I wrote defensively, I meant offensively. How can they be quite equal offensively when Dahlin has outscored him largely?

How can you be so obnoxious to suggest only the PP counts as offensive minutes? Every minute not on the PK is an offensive minute, and an opportunity to create offence!

If you want to use your way of arguing, “ Heiskanen is better defensively because he plays more on the PK”, doesn’t Dahlin playing more PP minutes mean he is better offensively according to that logic?

 

[AB13]

U20 season points per game

Dahlin 0.67

Heiskanen 0.40

Heiskanens defensive stats are not better. I can’t see how anyone takes Heiskanen going forward, This is Dahlin without even thinking about it!

 

[Zub]

Since they got into the NHL

Dahlin

106 games, 10 goals, 50 assists, 60 points 0.57 ppg

Heiskanen

112 games, 19 goals, 34 assists, 53 points, 0.47 ppg

That is an incredibly massive difference considering age.

Why are defensive starts relevant? Scoring on a shift starting in the defensive zone is possible.

The only relevant stat Heiskanen does “ better” in is ice time. The only reason Dahlin doesn’t play PK is his coach severely misusing him.

Being trusted defensively doesn’t mean you are good defensively. Coaches often trust the wrong players. Dahlin has better 5v5 defensive metrics than Heiskanen since 2018! If he got the opportunity to play PK, he would be considered a better defender too. Regardless of how good they are defensively, I don’t think it can compensate for such a large difference in offensive quality.

If as you argue, being trusted defensively means you are good offensively, that must mean being trusted offensively means you are good offensively. Therefore, Heiskanen is not great offensively according to you? Or do these standards not apply to Heiskanen?

"Being trusted defensively doesn’t mean you are good defensively"

And "The only relevant stat Heiskanen does “ better” in is ice time. " Wow that's rich, how about Heiskanen leading the League in stick checks, and dzone to o zone puck carrys for example? Where is Dahlin in that category?

And that's your answer to this quote from you "Why are defensive starts relevant? Scoring on a shift starting in the defensive zone is possible."

Because if you carry the puck all the way from ur own zone to the ozone successully as a D man so much that you lead the entire league in that stat, it very much is a relevant stat. You really talked yourself in a bag on this one my friend.

Also, Heiskanen has superior stats in more categories than just D zone starts, scoring goals for example. Primary assists too.

Also Rasmus Dahlin 5v5 this season in 26GP 1+7. You need to understand that Miro isn't in a position to put up offensive numbers like Dahlin, when he does EVERYTHING else. The way you compare them is just faulty, and ignorant imo.

 

[AB13]

"Being trusted defensively doesn’t mean you are good defensively"

And "The only relevant stat Heiskanen does “ better” in is ice time. " Wow that's rich, how about Heiskanen leading the League in stick checks, and dzone to o zone puck carrys for example? Where is Dahlin in that category?

And that's your answer to this quote from you "Why are defensive starts relevant? Scoring on a shift starting in the defensive zone is possible."

Because if you carry the puck all the way from ur own zone to the ozone successully as a D man so much that you lead the entire league in that stat, it very much is a relevant stat. You really talked yourself in a bag on this one my friend.

Also, Heiskanen has superior stats in more categories than just D zone starts, scoring goals for example. Primary assists too.

Also Rasmus Dahlin 5v5 this season in 26GP 1+7. You need to understand that Miro isn't in a position to put up offensive numbers when he does EVERYTHING else. The way you compare them is just faulty, and ignorant imo.

D zone to O zone carries is yet another irrelevant stat. Many times, carrying the puck up the ice slows the tempo down, and passing is a far more effective option. From what I have seen most of Dahlin and Heiskanens points come from passing the puck up the ice, joining the attack, and finding another pass which leads to a goal.

Of course he can put up offensive numbers while also having a defensive role, the best defencemen in the NHL always do that.

Explain how arguing Dahlin is better because he comfortably outscores Heiskanen and has comparable defensive stats is ignorant? That is what I am arguing. There is no way around what I just said. I think it is rather ignorant to claim that 5v5 points are more relevant than PP points, they are not. Both Dahlin and Heiskanen play pretty high PP minutes, but Dahlin is a much better power play quarterback. 4 more even strength minutes a game with only a minute less PP time should be enough for a defenceman to outscore another one with the same offensive ability, but despite that it isn’t close.

In their U20 seasons, Dahlin has a PPG of 0.67, and Heiskanen a PPG of 0.40. That is a massive difference. Looking at their stats in offensive and defensive categories in the same age, even comparing them going forward is a joke.

This isn’t really that relevant, but Dahlin wins every poll against Heiskanen for a reason, The vast majority of fans that aren’t from Finland or doesn’t support the Stars would take Heiskanen going forward.

 

[Zub]

D zone to O zone carries is yet another irrelevant stat. Many times, carrying the puck up the ice slows the tempo down, and passing is a far more effective option. From what I have seen most of Dahlin and Heiskanens points come from passing the puck up the ice, joining the attack, and finding another pass which leads to a goal.

Of course he can put up offensive numbers while also having a defensive role, the best defencemen in the NHL always do that.

Explain how arguing Dahlin is better because he comfortably outscores Heiskanen and has comparable defensive stats is ignorant? That is what I am arguing. There is no way around what I just said. I think it is rather ignorant to claim that 5v5 points are more relevant than PP points, they are not. Both Dahlin and Heiskanen play pretty high PP minutes, but Dahlin is a much better power play quarterback. 4 more even strength minutes a game with only a minute less PP time should be enough for a defenceman to outscore another one with the same offensive ability, but despite that it isn’t close.

In their U20 seasons, Dahlin has a PPG of 0.67, and Heiskanen a PPG of 0.40. That is a massive difference. Looking at their stats in offensive and defensive categories in the same age, even comparing them going forward is a joke.

This isn’t really that relevant, but Dahlin wins every poll against Heiskanen for a reason, almost no fan that isn’t from Finland or doesn’t support the Stars would take Heiskanen going forward.

I do agree that Dahlin wins this poll, but the way you try explaining that Dahlin is miles and miles millions of miles ahead in everything on Heiskanen is just ridicilous, they are very close when all factors taken in consideration. If Dahlin was so many miles ahead of Heiskanen offensively, where's his goals at? He has some, but Heiskanen has been scoring many creative and beautiful goals, some are even highlight reel. I've yet seen any from Dahlin, i would expect him to score GOTY goals every night if he was so much better as your claiming.