HC Slovan Bratislava

[Faterson]

It would be best for Slovan to skip the entire season, especially if it helped the club to get rid of its current owners.

It's a consequence of the transition from Communism to wild capitalism three decades ago that a "national treasure", a hockey club like Slovan, could end up with owners like these. They've been in murky waters since the 1990s (look up the ridiculous "Slovan Harvard" moniker) – it's not just about the last few years.

I don't think it makes sense for Slovan to return to Slovakia's provincial league. The goal should be to return to the KHL as soon as possible – ideally, with completely new and responsible owners, debt-free. If the price to get there is to skip an entire season (or longer), the price should be paid.

The ultimate goal for Slovan should be to join the NHL's future European division. It's not just naive HFBoards posters like myself who mention the possibility of a future NHL European division – European NHL scouts have been hinting at that, too. It's going to take quite a few years to get there, though.

PS: Well, this summer I'll at least be saving dozens of euros for the annual KHL.tv webcast subscription. The Russians have been blocking it for Slovaks anyway (useless without VPN) for the last couple of years (without bothering to notify me of the blocking).

 

[tobu]

It would be best for Slovan to skip the entire season, especially if it helped the club to get rid of its current owners.

Why would anyone buy a club with no assets, just a brand name, and with a 7mio Eur debt? The Slovan brand name is not worth that much.

I don't think it makes sense for Slovan to return to Slovakia's provincial league. The goal should be to return to the KHL as soon as possible – ideally, with completely new and responsible owners, debt-free. If the price to get there is to skip an entire season (or longer), the price should be paid.

And then what? Accumulate more debt again? Playing in KHL is an economic nonsense, assuming there is noone to subsidize the club. The only other alternative is, some billionaire would treat a Bratislava KHL club as a fun hobby he's willing to pour cash at.

 

[Faterson]

The only other alternative is, some billionaire would treat a Bratislava KHL club as a fun hobby he's willing to pour cash at.

Yes, that's the solution I'm talking about.

Slovan already has a millionaire owner – but of the wrong type, created out of the ruins of Communism.

If Slovan can get a different, responsible millionaire/billionaire owner, things could be different.

For example, there have been rumors (potentially totally unfounded) about the Slovak software company ESET's interest in the team. They are millionaires as well, but not thanks to the collapse of a totalitarian regime. I haven't heard any reports about ESET failing to pay its business partners or contractors.

So, if Slovan can find new responsible owners of that type, a future for Slovan in the KHL or NHL isn't unthinkable.

 

[geri]

Why would anyone buy a club with no assets, just a brand name, and with a 7mio Eur debt? The Slovan brand name is not worth that much.


And then what? Accumulate more debt again? Playing in KHL is an economic nonsense, assuming there is noone to subsidize the club. The only other alternative is, some billionaire would treat a Bratislava KHL club as a fun hobby he's willing to pour cash at.

if bankruptcy is filed, they sell the brand- so whoever is buying it, pays the brand only, and can start with zero, and no debts of course...
i dont know slovak bankruptcy law, but here in austria the "creditors" (city arena, players who didnt get paid) can initiate this bankruptcy,... and beside that, the current managment could go to prison and pay damage, as they were obliged to file bankruptcy...

and as i mentioned above, i believe a serious owner must not waste money, he easily can build a 12 mio budget for KHL with no loses, if he is a normal owner and sponsors trust to have a positive image with slovan.
thats the point- a POSITIVE IMAGE, currently siroky dont get this

 

[elMatador]

Yes, that's the solution I'm talking about.

Slovan already has a millionaire owner – but of the wrong type, created out of the ruins of Communism.

Slovan already has a crooked owner. Siroky has been milking it ever since he has become the owner.
It boggles my mind that anybody wanted to play there knowing 100% not getting paid on time and in the full amount as those problems were known for years.

 

[mkev400]

Yes, that's the solution I'm talking about.

Slovan already has a millionaire owner – but of the wrong type, created out of the ruins of Communism.

If Slovan can get a different, responsible millionaire/billionaire owner, things could be different.

For example, there have been rumors (potentially totally unfounded) about the Slovak software company ESET's interest in the team. They are millionaires as well, but not thanks to the collapse of a totalitarian regime. I haven't heard any reports about ESET failing to pay its business partners or contractors.

So, if Slovan can find new responsible owners of that type, a future for Slovan in the KHL or NHL isn't unthinkable.

The thing is. What you are proposing sounds nice and idealistic on paper but in reality, I think you will have a hard time finding the owner you describe. Responsible/smart millionaires don’t stay rich by sinking money into a pit or rather would be unwilling to haemorraghe money year after year.

You mentioned 7 million in outstanding debt. Any potential owner would have to commit to squaring those debts pretty much as soon as the sale is finalized.
Then you need to add on the cost of actually buying the team. And while a team without assets is not much more than a name, the current owners will demand a incentive of change. Let’s call it 2 million on the count of no assets (probably twice that because of history, perceived value from current owners etc. That’s €9 million + to buy trademarks and a letter head in essence, all of which are immediate losses for the new owner, without having anything substantial.

Let’s take the assumption of a previous poster that it’ll take some 12 million to ice a KHL team (you mentioned you’d like them to return to the league). That’s an extra 12 million that needs to be raised/invested by the owner. That’s at least €21 million in investments, and probably more if you consider debt interest accumulated by going dormant a year and however expensive the acquisition of the team actually ends up being.

Now let’s look at recouping some of those investments: last years attendance average was 6450, so let’s take that as an example figure. I worked out that with the Mean ticket prices (based on what’s available on the website divided by 8 different categories, therefore treating every category equal, and excluding discounts and top 8 special rates) that the income from ticket sales would be right around the €6 million mark (in real terms this is likely to be much less, based on availability of seats and habits of people of buying as cheap as possible). That leaves you with at least a €6 Million hole to fill with sponsors, to break even on your investment for the season. Is the Slovak economy strong enough to offer this amount in sponsorship (and if so, why wasn’t this presented for the coming KHL season)?

So at the end of the day any potential owner would probably still have to invest millions annually for the Club to not make a loss, which in turn means the owner does. Yes there is certainly ways to declare it as tax write offs somehow (I didn’t research this) but the point is, that responsible/smart millionaires don’t become/stay wealthy by pouring money into a dark pit without the possibility of even breaking even in the long run. And I would assume with (wage-) inflation etc. that a 12 million annual budget for all hockey operations (not just player salaries but also arena rent, marketing, hockey and front office ops, registration and insurance fees) will spit you out somewhere at the low end in terms of competitiveness in the KHL...

Not saying this wouldn’t be the case in the extraliga, but the budget can be smaller and a eventual return on investment more likely, that it could (but probably won’t) attract a good/responsible investor... The way I see it, is that the only way to keep Slovan alive is an investor with more money than sense, but in the medium to longterm that will probably end up in the exact same position as Slovan is right now. Which is a shame really because it was one of the options I was looking at to take in a KHL game in a city I hadn’t been to before...

 

[geri]

The thing is. What you are proposing sounds nice and idealistic on paper but in reality, I think you will have a hard time finding the owner you describe. Responsible/smart millionaires don’t stay rich by sinking money into a pit or rather would be unwilling to haemorraghe money year after year.

You mentioned 7 million in outstanding debt. Any potential owner would have to commit to squaring those debts pretty much as soon as the sale is finalized.
Then you need to add on the cost of actually buying the team. And while a team without assets is not much more than a name, the current owners will demand a incentive of change. Let’s call it 2 million on the count of no assets (probably twice that because of history, perceived value from current owners etc. That’s €9 million + to buy trademarks and a letter head in essence, all of which are immediate losses for the new owner, without having anything substantial.

Let’s take the assumption of a previous poster that it’ll take some 12 million to ice a KHL team (you mentioned you’d like them to return to the league). That’s an extra 12 million that needs to be raised/invested by the owner. That’s at least €21 million in investments, and probably more if you consider debt interest accumulated by going dormant a year and however expensive the acquisition of the team actually ends up being.

Now let’s look at recouping some of those investments: last years attendance average was 6450, so let’s take that as an example figure. I worked out that with the Mean ticket prices (based on what’s available on the website divided by 8 different categories, therefore treating every category equal, and excluding discounts and top 8 special rates) that the income from ticket sales would be right around the €6 million mark (in real terms this is likely to be much less, based on availability of seats and habits of people of buying as cheap as possible). That leaves you with at least a €6 Million hole to fill with sponsors, to break even on your investment for the season. Is the Slovak economy strong enough to offer this amount in sponsorship (and if so, why wasn’t this presented for the coming KHL season)?

So at the end of the day any potential owner would probably still have to invest millions annually for the Club to not make a loss, which in turn means the owner does. Yes there is certainly ways to declare it as tax write offs somehow (I didn’t research this) but the point is, that responsible/smart millionaires don’t become/stay wealthy by pouring money into a dark pit without the possibility of even breaking even in the long run. And I would assume with (wage-) inflation etc. that a 12 million annual budget for all hockey operations (not just player salaries but also arena rent, marketing, hockey and front office ops, registration and insurance fees) will spit you out somewhere at the low end in terms of competitiveness in the KHL...

Not saying this wouldn’t be the case in the extraliga, but the budget can be smaller and a eventual return on investment more likely, that it could (but probably won’t) attract a good/responsible investor... The way I see it, is that the only way to keep Slovan alive is an investor with more money than sense, but in the medium to longterm that will probably end up in the exact same position as Slovan is right now. Which is a shame really because it was one of the options I was looking at to take in a KHL game in a city I hadn’t been to before...

you are right, but your mentioned price would be for a healthy club to buy (even a healthy club/company has debts), not current Slovan..
and i am pretty sure, IF there really were negotians with a new investor, current owner siroky was asking the price you mentioned...

and i oppose your cash requirements: the future running budget (lets say 12 mio) must be completly financed from cash flow (tickets lets say 6 mio + sponsors)
and if they make playoffs 1 round , another 1 mio would be achieved...

what can be the price?
variant 1- if the new investor buys only the trade mark (in case of bankruptcy) he pays only this. lets say 2 or 3 mio ??
variant 2 - in case he would have bought a running (actually bankrupt) club from siroky, he would pay 1 € (although siroky wants much more ??) to them, and pay off the debts (5-7 mio?) of course- much worse situation...
so lets wait and hope, there is this variant 1 coming out

 

[Faterson]

What you are proposing sounds nice and idealistic on paper

In the same way, 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been just "nice and idealistic", but outright absurd and science-fiction to expect a Slovak team to join the world's second-best hockey league, play league games in Russian Far East, etc. If I had posted any of these scenarios 10 years ago here at HFBoards, I'd be sent to have my head examined by psychiatrists. No exaggeration.

Yet it all happened. Apparently with questionable means, but if they were able to pull it off for 7 long seasons, this indicates you don't need to abandon a vision just because it starts out as "nice and idealistic on paper".

but in reality, I think you will have a hard time finding the owner you describe.

No one says it's gonna be easy, or that it's even probable! In the same way, it was wildly improbable for Slovan ever to join the KHL. Even while Lev Poprad was playing in the KHL, most of us never expected it could happen for Slovan. Yet it all became reality.

Responsible/smart millionaires don’t stay rich by sinking money into a pit or rather would be unwilling to haemorraghe money year after year.

I don't think owning a KHL hockey team must necessarily equal to "sinking money into a pit" and other horrific scenarios. I hope – just like our Austrian friend from Vienna Delray Beach – that there's a way to own a KHL club without "haemorrhaging money year after year".

Being competitive is a different matter. But as I posted on HFBoards previously: I would prefer for Slovan to play in the KHL and lose all 64 regular-season games, rather than join and dominate Slovakia's domestic provincial league.

You can learn from defeats, too, and improve that way. Out of 7 seasons in the KHL, Slovan made the play-offs twice, even though it wasn't supposed to, due to its low budget. That's perfectly acceptable to me as a fan – as long as the club has a decent owner who pays the city for the use of the arena, pays all players on time so we don't need to feel ashamed for being Slovan fans, etc.

Look at Finland at the World Championships in Slovan's arena last week: in the finals, they iced a team worth $3 million against Canada's squad worth $60 million. Yet they won. Slovan can hope for similar success, if managed and coached competently.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

The thing is. What you are proposing sounds nice and idealistic on paper but in reality, I think you will have a hard time finding the owner you describe. Responsible/smart millionaires don’t stay rich by sinking money into a pit or rather would be unwilling to haemorraghe money year after year.

You mentioned 7 million in outstanding debt. Any potential owner would have to commit to squaring those debts pretty much as soon as the sale is finalized.
Then you need to add on the cost of actually buying the team. And while a team without assets is not much more than a name, the current owners will demand a incentive of change. Let’s call it 2 million on the count of no assets (probably twice that because of history, perceived value from current owners etc. That’s €9 million + to buy trademarks and a letter head in essence, all of which are immediate losses for the new owner, without having anything substantial.

Let’s take the assumption of a previous poster that it’ll take some 12 million to ice a KHL team (you mentioned you’d like them to return to the league). That’s an extra 12 million that needs to be raised/invested by the owner. That’s at least €21 million in investments, and probably more if you consider debt interest accumulated by going dormant a year and however expensive the acquisition of the team actually ends up being.

Now let’s look at recouping some of those investments: last years attendance average was 6450, so let’s take that as an example figure. I worked out that with the Mean ticket prices (based on what’s available on the website divided by 8 different categories, therefore treating every category equal, and excluding discounts and top 8 special rates) that the income from ticket sales would be right around the €6 million mark (in real terms this is likely to be much less, based on availability of seats and habits of people of buying as cheap as possible). That leaves you with at least a €6 Million hole to fill with sponsors, to break even on your investment for the season. Is the Slovak economy strong enough to offer this amount in sponsorship (and if so, why wasn’t this presented for the coming KHL season)?

So at the end of the day any potential owner would probably still have to invest millions annually for the Club to not make a loss, which in turn means the owner does. Yes there is certainly ways to declare it as tax write offs somehow (I didn’t research this) but the point is, that responsible/smart millionaires don’t become/stay wealthy by pouring money into a dark pit without the possibility of even breaking even in the long run. And I would assume with (wage-) inflation etc. that a 12 million annual budget for all hockey operations (not just player salaries but also arena rent, marketing, hockey and front office ops, registration and insurance fees) will spit you out somewhere at the low end in terms of competitiveness in the KHL...

Not saying this wouldn’t be the case in the extraliga, but the budget can be smaller and a eventual return on investment more likely, that it could (but probably won’t) attract a good/responsible investor... The way I see it, is that the only way to keep Slovan alive is an investor with more money than sense, but in the medium to longterm that will probably end up in the exact same position as Slovan is right now. Which is a shame really because it was one of the options I was looking at to take in a KHL game in a city I hadn’t been to before...

Purchase price is assets minus liabilities, future profits plus cash on hand.

The IP isn’t worth much beyond city boundaries, they don’t own their rink, they owe €7mm in rent and salaries and have no cash at hand.

If a new owner covered the debts, they’d get the club for €1 to make the sale legal.

 

[mkev400]

considering we are talking about a (currently) fictional owner, those 2 million that I counted in for IP won’t make much difference in the grand scheme of things. The problem of huge investments in running the team still stands. A budget of 12 million p.a. Ain’t gonna get you very far in the KHL, not if you have to cover high travel cost for players as well as front and backroom staff, player salaries (even crap of the crop will want to see a pay rise/KHL Level salary compared to what they were making in the extraliga, cause increased travel, wear and tear), coaches (multiple), trainers and physios, arena lease at Ondrej Nepeala (since the other arena in Ruzinov is apparently occupied), renting a practice facility (can’t always practice in ONA, since it’s multi use and rented). If someone can fill me in on the average salary of a LHL player, I’ll be glad to factor that in, and change my projection accordingly) Just to put the 12 million into perspective as well, it’s about 500k short (~€12.5m =900m rubles) of what the salary cap will be once introduced (I found a way to fanagle it in just for you Hansomreiste).

Also just to clarify for that finish team, faterson, do you consider worth in terms of salary or in terms of a perceived market value? Because the NHL minimum Salary for ELCs is somewhere around the 700-800k mark (for very low end players) and Finland had at least 3 NA players so at least $2.1m tied up in between 3 players (and Jokiharju likely is on a max ELC, so closer to $1m... If you go by a perceived market value, then I would say that the 3m team won’t be worth 3m much longer (nit picky I know )

 

[geri]

You can bet all possible investors wanted only 100% to cut all ties with siroky- unfortunately siroky lives in lala Land so he will See what he gets now

 

[Jussi]

Look at Finland at the World Championships in Slovan's arena last week: in the finals, they iced a team worth $3 million against Canada's squad worth $60 million. Yet they won. Slovan can hope for similar success, if managed and coached competently.

Except for two major differences. First, it's a two week tournament. Second, you're not Finns.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

In the same way, 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been just "nice and idealistic", but outright absurd and science-fiction to expect a Slovak team to join the world's second-best hockey league, play league games in Russian Far East, etc. If I had posted any of these scenarios 10 years ago here at HFBoards, I'd be sent to have my head examined by psychiatrists. No exaggeration.

Yet it all happened. Apparently with questionable means, but if they were able to pull it off for 7 long seasons, this indicates you don't need to abandon a vision just because it starts out as "nice and idealistic on paper".

Having Slovan play in the KHL wasn't exactly outright and absurd considering the KHL made it publicly clear their goal was to start a European division and potentially have 60 teams in the league. They got further than they should have before realizing that it won't work, and it took Praha, Poprad, Medvescak, and several rejections from Koln, Berlin, Salzburg, Stockholm, London, Paris, and Munich to make them realize.

I don't think owning a KHL hockey team must necessarily equal to "sinking money into a pit" and other horrific scenarios. I hope – just like our Austrian friend from Vienna Delray Beach – that there's a way to own a KHL club without "haemorrhaging money year after year".

Being competitive is a different matter. But as I posted on HFBoards previously: I would prefer for Slovan to play in the KHL and lose all 64 regular-season games, rather than join and dominate Slovakia's domestic provincial league.

You can learn from defeats, too, and improve that way. Out of 7 seasons in the KHL, Slovan made the play-offs twice, even though it wasn't supposed to, due to its low budget. That's perfectly acceptable to me as a fan – as long as the club has a decent owner who pays the city for the use of the arena, pays all players on time so we don't need to feel ashamed for being Slovan fans, etc.

Look at Finland at the World Championships in Slovan's arena last week: in the finals, they iced a team worth $3 million against Canada's squad worth $60 million. Yet they won. Slovan can hope for similar success, if managed and coached competently.

Not a single team makes money, not a single team comes close to breaking even. In KHL, team is social donation rather than business. Owning a KHL team comes with the expectation of financial losses and no scenario where there is a change. Expecting an owner to do the basic things, like pay players on time and pay them what they are owed, is a nonstarter. Regardless of what league it's in, when an owner does that, he should no longer be owner. And since no one wants to drop millions each year, dropping down in a league where a profit can be made, and financially ethical decisions can be made, might be the smarter decision.

And comparing international games to leagues games is difficult. It's comparing a short and quick tournament to a long, grinding season with away trips, travel, and everything that comes with a season. Winning a few games in a row with players that don't ever play together and have little chemistry shouldn't be a blue print for success. It would be like trying to copy Belarus team that beat Sweden in Lake Placid, there's other factors that go into this. Finland is a small hockey nation with great national program, and does many things very well, but it's different things.

 

[Albatros]

Many Europeans would be opposed to the idea of sports teams making money, rather it is important that the club operates sustainably. As for Slovan, the EBEL could be the right environment for them too.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Many Europeans would be opposed to the idea of sports teams making money, rather it is important that the club operates sustainably. As for Slovan, the EBEL could be the right environment for them too.

EBEL would be interesting, but no way they could do it this year.

I went to a Slovan game that was “sold out”, but a tout who had to have had 200 tickets on him got me in for a corner seat 25 rows up for €5 Euro.

The ability to leave the venue to get a dirt cheap beer across the street vs paying for a cheap beer(€2 vs €3) inside was great for me, but why are they leaving money like that on the table? Between concessions, merch and papering the house, there were so many opportunities to make money to keep the lights on, but just done so half hearted.

 

[geri]

EBEL would be interesting, but no way they could do it this year.

I went to a Slovan game that was “sold out”, but a tout who had to have had 200 tickets on him got me in for a corner seat 25 rows up for €5 Euro.

The ability to leave the venue to get a dirt cheap beer across the street vs paying for a cheap beer(€2 vs €3) inside was great for me, but why are they leaving money like that on the table? Between concessions, merch and papering the house, there were so many opportunities to make money to keep the lights on, but just done so half hearted.

you say it.
paying from 14 € for a seat, and inside arena beer + hot dog 5 € is good for the fans. it is a FAIR price for KHL game, and you must consider the wage level in slovakia- it is not easy for a normal fan to attend all 30 games..
and saying that, you see easily difference to NHL- you must multiply that figures by 3-4 times minimum, easily explains the gap to raise money. not even compare the insane US TV deals or sponsoring...
and in russia it is even worse regaring revenues for the club, tickets are very cheap...
i always say, thanks to the oligarchs and their companies-- at end of comunism they "stole" it from the people, got very rich, now they give it back by supporting the clubs

about EBEL- have you ever attented a match- this cant be an option for slovan - it is 1 or 2 level below KHL, very slow, slovak fans wouldnt like it, as me (i m austrian), tickets you can ask not more than 8 €
goal MUST be KHL, from performence level point of view

 

[SoundAndFury]

Yeah I think there is little point of playing in the EBEL over Slovak Extraliga. With Hungarian clubs joining and Slovan most likely back the goal should be to bring the Extraliga to EBEL level.

 

[geri]

Ciliak Brust and taffe are sueing Slovan
Questions to our Slovak friends- will this start a bankruptcy process?

 

[tobu]

Ciliak Brust and taffe are sueing Slovan
Questions to our Slovak friends- will this start a bankruptcy process?

I personally hope so. I wouldn't mind the club going bankrupt and in process selling the Slovan brand to someone more capable of managing it.

 

[Albatros]

Yeah I think there is little point of playing in the EBEL over Slovak Extraliga. With Hungarian clubs joining and Slovan most likely back the goal should be to bring the Extraliga to EBEL level.

I'm not sure that the Extraliga has what it takes financially to challenge the EBEL, Alba Volán too is a much better team than these Hungarian clubs. In Budapest they play Slovak league in front of 600 or so spectators?

 

[SoundAndFury]

I'm not sure that the Extraliga has what it takes financially to challenge the EBEL, Alba Volán too is a much better team than these Hungarian clubs. In Budapest they play Slovak league in front of 600 or so spectators?

Yeah, it's not particularly close at this point but I mean it as a long term goal or even a model of how to make the local league work. The market size isn't that different so the potential, overall, has to be quite similar.

 

[geri]

I'm not sure that the Extraliga has what it takes financially to challenge the EBEL, Alba Volán too is a much better team than these Hungarian clubs. In Budapest they play Slovak league in front of 600 or so spectators?

but extraliga has what it takes: local slovak players mainly in the teams.
EBEL dont have this- teams are mainly built by foreigners (mainly north americans) and only few local austrians...and the CZ team of znaimo, mainly with 2.level CZ players can compete with them- this tells everything about the level...
no goal for a slovak club and its fans

 

[Albatros]

The Slovak champions had 11 import players too, more than the EBEL champions in fact (9). It's more that the less good teams can't afford this than a league strategy. As a result there are also a lot of old-timers well past their prime in the Slovak league. Of course in Austria there are different developmental issues, but this would not greatly concern Slovan in that league.

 

[tobu]

Slovan playing in EBEL would be of no benefit to Slovak hockey. It's just not worth it. I rather see derbrys with Košice, Trenčín, Nitra with actual emotion, skin game than a league for which I would care even less than I did for KHL. KHL at least delivered huge skill, while the skill gap between EBEL and Extraliga is not worth it. We should rather aspire to develop a better domestic league over time with a team from Bratislava that would be at least on par with EBEL.

 

[Albatros]

Where would the money to develop domestic hockey come from? No Slovak team has ever made the Round of 16 in the CHL and the average attendance in domestic hockey is 1,663 so there's both a lot to do and little to work with.