Proposal: Hayes to the Flames

[Rubi]

If there is a deal to be made with the Rangers it won't include Hayes. It will either be for Zuccarello alone or Zuccarello and McQuaid. Zuccarello will most likely be a rental. I don't see the Flames wanting to re-sign a 32 year old particularly when they have so many good prospects n the system and they are currently 2nd in league scoring and that's with a severely under performing James Neal on the roster.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Quantity is often the best you can hope for in a rebuild. I know people get attached to players that have played for their team and this causes them to over value what they'd return but the truth is that rentals rarely return any A pieces. Very rarely.

Oh I understand that the Rangers are not getting blue chip, can’t miss prospects in return for rentals, but don’t think for a minute anything that you or anyone else has offered is a quality offer. You would all be screaming bloody murder if the roles were reversed.

Calgary doesn’t seem to have any B-C level pieces. What’s being offered here is crap, it’s not even quantities that the Rangers would be interested in.

The two prospects that went to Ottawa in the Duchene trade are far better than career fringe NHL’ers like Czarnik, 19 years olds playing in 2nd rate junior leagues like Pospisil and near 25 year old busts like Spencer Foo. The offers are insulting and the fact that you think the Ranger fans should just accept this is quite hilarious, being that 2 of the 3 best assets left on the market are Rangers property and there’s been a lot of teams that are reportedly aggressive on those pieces.

Good luck with telling yourselves that you’ll get two top-6 forwards for a joke package, the truth is that those deals don’t happen and Jeff Gorton isn’t Peter Chiarelli.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Yeah if the price for Zucc and Hayes is as reported (2nd + prospect, 1st + prospect) I could see a package of 1st + 2nd + A prospect or 2 B prospects being feasible

If that were the route Calgary goes I don’t think they would add an A prospect. Maybe something like 1st + 2nd + 2/3 of Philips, Mangiapane, MEP

I get why NYR doesn’t have a need for Frolik but people calling him a cap dump is misguided. He’s around .5PPG and plays an elite 2way game. I get why NYR doesn’t need him but he is the kind of player who could go back the other way to make the cap work. If Silfverberg just extended for 5.25 Fro is worth 4.3 easily

I guess NYR fans don’t see the point but you can easily retain on him and flip him for a 2nd-3rd next deadline depending on the market. He’s not Neal, there wouldn’t be an additional cost to Calgary to add him to the deal

I’ve explained this already. He’s a redundant piece in which the Rangers do not need. They do not need another bottom-6 forward making $4 million. That’s cap dump territory. If Namestnikov is one (according to HF, he is) then so is Frolik. They’re the same exact type of player with very similar numbers, Frolik’s being slightly better.

If Frolik is in the deal, you’re giving up something that’s going to really hurt.

 

[Some Other Flame]

Yeah, no one actually thought that...

1st, conditional 1st, Howden, Hajek, Namestnikov is a lot better than what is being offered ITT for Hayes and Zucc.

Yeah, you can go ahead and read through the trade tread from the Rangers subforum to refresh your memory because there sure was a lot of anger over the actual return.

And yeah, an RFA and a full year and a half of McDonagh brought back a lot more than what two rentals will get. Shocker that one.

 

[crackdown44]

I’ve explained this already. He’s a redundant piece in which the Rangers do not need. They do not need another bottom-6 forward making $4 million. That’s cap dump territory. If Namestnikov is one (according to HF, he is) then so is Frolik. They’re the same exact type of player with very similar numbers, Frolik’s being slightly better.

If Frolik is in the deal, you’re giving up something that’s going to really hurt.

Frolik has 6 more goals and two more points in 12 fewer games. That’s a bit more than slightly better. I’ll agree that they’re both responsible defensively but I’d give a slight edge to Fro there as well. If it’s easier to get a third team involved to make it work that’s fine, Calgary can recoup a mid round pick for Frolik easily

Like I said I understand that NYR fans will think that he’s not needed but I imagine your GM wouldn’t require anything extra to take him on. You don’t need the cap space and it makes for a free asset next TDL as he has virtually no term left

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

The offers are insulting and the fact that you think the Ranger fans should just accept this is quite hilarious.

I doubt many of us are insulted by a harmless trade discussion on HF....

It's a bad offer that goes for low quality quantity but it IS just offered by some guy.

 

[BPD]

Frolik has 6 more goals and two more points in 12 fewer games. That’s a bit more than slightly better. I’ll agree that they’re both responsible defensively but I’d give a slight edge to Fro there as well. If it’s easier to get a third team involved to make it work that’s fine, Calgary can recoup a mid round pick for Frolik easily

Like I said I understand that NYR fans will think that he’s not needed but I imagine your GM wouldn’t require anything extra to take him on. You don’t need the cap space and it makes for a free asset next TDL as he has virtually no term left

It's a why thing. Frolik doesn't maximize NYRs assets. We need fewer late 20s mid six forwards, not another one to kick the can to 2020s TDL.

That's the kind of move that extends a rebuild.

Further...what's the worry on Frolik anyway? Aside from filling a Brinks truck for Tkachuk, you guys have your core locked up for the better part of the next 4 years. You're good there.

 

[crackdown44]

It's a why thing. Frolik doesn't maximize NYRs assets. We need fewer late 20s mid six forwards, not another one to kick the can to 2020s TDL.

That's the kind of move that extends a rebuild.

Further...what's the worry on Frolik anyway? Aside from filling a Brinks truck for Tkachuk, you guys have your core locked up for the better part of the next 4 years. You're good there.

Oh I agree I’d love to keep him unless we have to move him. He has great chem with Tkachuk and Backlund. I was just speaking to the hypothetical of adding both Hayes and Zucc, we wouldn’t have the cap space to do it this year without Fro level money going back

Personally I wouldn’t want to spend the assets to acquire both but it was being discussed here so I took a crack at value

It just bothers me when people call Frolik a cap dump lol

 

[One Winged Angel]

Frolik has 6 more goals and two more points in 12 fewer games. That’s a bit more than slightly better. I’ll agree that they’re both responsible defensively but I’d give a slight edge to Fro there as well. If it’s easier to get a third team involved to make it work that’s fine, Calgary can recoup a mid round pick for Frolik easily

It is only slightly better. Frolik isn’t scoring at the type of pace there the gap would be significant without the difference in games.

Like I said I understand that NYR fans will think that he’s not needed but I imagine your GM wouldn’t require anything extra to take him on. You don’t need the cap space and it makes for a free asset next TDL as he has virtually no term left

No, we KNOW he’s not needed and there are other players that will see time next year that he will take icetime from, IE: Andersson, Kravtsov and that’s not even factoring in that the Rangers most likely will be in on Panarin. Calgary fans keep trying to sell us on the idea that we could do something with him. If it’s that easy, then Treliving can keep him and deal him later.

Also, the notion that Gorton wouldn’t require any extra to take on Frolik is ridiculous, considering Boston gave up a middle-6 forward in order to get rid of Beleskey’s deal. Gorton may not require that level of payment for Frolik, but I’d imagine the cost will be a little higher with him added in. The Rangers have no reason to take him on.

 

[crackdown44]

It is only slightly better. Frolik isn’t scoring at the type of pace there the gap would be significant without the difference in games.



No, we KNOW he’s not needed and there are other players that will see time next year that he will take icetime from, IE: Andersson, Kravtsov and that’s not even factoring in that the Rangers most likely will be in on Panarin. Calgary fans keep trying to sell us on the idea that we could do something with him. If it’s that easy, then Treliving can keep him and deal him later.

Also, the notion that Gorton wouldn’t require any extra to take on Frolik is ridiculous, considering Boston gave up a middle-6 forward in order to get rid of Beleskey’s deal. Gorton may not require that level of payment for Frolik, but I’d imagine the cost will be a little higher with him added in. The Rangers have no reason to take him on.

Comparing Beleskey to Frolik tells me everything I need to know about your valuation of players. I also love how you split up my post into separate quotes but cut out the spot where I said Calgary could get a third team involved and recoup a mid round pick for Fro

Over an 82 game season Namestnikov is pacing for ~10 goals and ~30 points and Fro is pacing for ~22 goals and ~41 points. That’s not that similar but I already said that

Also I don’t think it’s a good idea for Calgary to acquire both Zucc and Hayes, I was just taking a crack at value because it’s fun to do and what these threads are made for. Calgary would need to move Frolik type money out to fit both under the cap, that’s why I included him, not because he needs to be dumped. I’d much rather spend less and only acquire 1 of the 2 and keep Fro

 

[One Winged Angel]

I doubt many of us are insulted by a harmless trade discussion on HF....

It's a bad offer that goes for low quality quantity but it IS just offered by some guy.

No, the offer itself isn’t insulting. The arrogance of telling people that they should accept and trying to tell people it’s a great package is an insult to people’s intelligence. It’s an attempt to pull wool over the eyes.

 

[Off Sides]

Yeah, you can go ahead and read through the trade tread from the Rangers subforum to refresh your memory because there sure was a lot of anger over the actual return.

And yeah, an RFA and a full year and a half of McDonagh brought back a lot more than what two rentals will get. Shocker that one.

I'm not sure anyone really knew what the Rangers received.

One of the points I continue to make about the Rangers rebuild which often comes up when people are doubting it, the drafts outside of the top couple picks are going to be about finding prospects who in hindsight would have been drafted earlier than they actually were.

If we look back on that Tampa trade now, Howden probably goes around 15th or so in the 2016 draft. Hajek probably also moves up to the late 1st.

Rangers also received #28, a 1st they used on Lundvist, if he too is eventually seen as a prospect who should have gone earlier...

Also we do not know which pick they get from Tampa next, what they'll use it on.

More or less point being, that trade looks a lot different under the optics that the Rangers received the ~#15 in 2016, ~#28 2016, #28 2018 plus whatever the conditional pick does. That is at least three 1st round picks in essence, one of which is earlier than a late first, which would be perceived as a huge haul should they all have gone back as future draft picks instead of the combination of past and future picks.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Comparing Beleskey to Frolik tells me everything I need to know about your valuation of players.

This right here tells me you have very selective reading. Considering that you refuse to read the entire post, I’ll just quote what I said directly.

Gorton may not require that level of payment for Frolik, but I’d imagine the cost will be a little higher with him added in.The Rangers have no reason to take him on.

So no, I didn’t say Frolik is Beleskey. I said that Frolik is a bad contract that the Rangers do not need to take on to and most likely will not do so unless there is some extra compensation involved, based on recent history. But putting words in someone’s mouth is always a good tactic when you’re running out of options, I guess.

I also love how you split up my post into separate quotes but cut out the spot where I said Calgary could get a third team involved and recoup a mid round pick for Fro

Why does that matter to me? Ranger fans want nothing to do with him. We’ve all said this. However, I did acknowledge it. Your selective reading fails you again.

No, we KNOW he’s not needed and there are other players that will see time next year that he will take icetime from, IE: Andersson, Kravtsov and that’s not even factoring in that the Rangers most likely will be in on Panarin. Calgary fans keep trying to sell us on the idea that we could do something with him. If it’s that easy, then Treliving can keep him and deal him later

So basically I said that if he’s worth that and a deal will be that easy and he’s as good of a player as Flames fans have said he is, keep him and deal him next deadline. The Rangers doing Calgary a favor so they can get a 3rd rounder for taking on $4 million of salary that they don’t need next season when they’ll most likely be in on Panarin doesn’t help the Rangers, unless there’s some extra compensation for Gorton taking him.

Over an 82 game season Namestnikov is pacing for ~10 goals and ~30 points and Fro is pacing for ~22 goals and ~41 points. That’s not that similar but I already said that

So because Frolik is pacing at 41 points means he’ll finish with it? I guess that’s why he’s a bottom-6 player, because he’s such a consistent scorer. Not only that, but his pacing is better only because of the fact that he’s played less games. Chances are, based on his last couple of seasons that if he had played those games, I’d put good money on the edge in points not being much greater, even without the difference in games.

He’s a good player, not saying he’s a bad player, but he’s not needed here.

Also I don’t think it’s a good idea for Calgary to acquire both Zucc and Hayes, I was just taking a crack at value because it’s fun to do and what these threads are made for. Calgary would need to move Frolik type money out to fit both under the cap, that’s why I included him, not because he needs to be dumped. I’d much rather spend less and only require 1 of the 2 and keep Fro

So then hold onto him and move him elsewhere. The Rangers don’t need him.

 

[crackdown44]

This right here tells me you have very selective reading. Considering that you refuse to read the entire post, I’ll just quote what I said directly.




So no, I didn’t say Frolik is Beleskey. I said that Frolik is a bad contract that the Rangers do not need to take on to and most likely will not do so unless there is some extra compensation involved, based on recent history. But putting words in someone’s mouth is always a good tactic when you’re running out of options, I guess.



Why does that matter to me? Ranger fans want nothing to do with him. We’ve all said this. However, I did acknowledge it. Your selective reading fails you again.



So basically I said that if he’s worth that and a deal will be that easy and he’s as good of a player as Flames fans have said he is, keep him and deal him next deadline. The Rangers doing Calgary a favor so they can get a 3rd rounder for taking on $4 million of salary that they don’t need next season when they’ll most likely be in on Panarin doesn’t help the Rangers, unless there’s some extra compensation for Gorton taking him.



So because Frolik is pacing at 41 points means he’ll finish with it? I guess that’s why he’s a bottom-6 player, because he’s such a consistent scorer. Not only that, but his pacing is better only because of the fact that he’s played less games. Chances are, based on his last couple of seasons that if he had played those games, I’d put good money on the edge in points not being much greater, even without the difference in games.

He’s a good player, not saying he’s a bad player, but he’s not needed here.



So then hold onto him and move him elsewhere. The Rangers don’t need him.

Alright I’m done with this. Frolik plays on the 2nd line of the 2nd best team in the league, he’s not bottom 6, maybe mid 6. He’s been at or above .5 PPG 5 of the last 6 seasons so yeah, I do think he probably hits it lol.

It’s not a bad contract, I literally said I’m happy to keep him and move less futures. I also said I was just making a value suggestion and to add both guys money would need to go back, that’s the only reason he was included

Zuccarello and Hayes aside and what they may/may not fetch, your assessment of Frolik tells me you don’t watch very many games out West, that’s okay

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

No, the offer itself isn’t insulting. The arrogance of telling people that they should accept and trying to tell people it’s a great package is an insult to people’s intelligence. It’s an attempt to pull wool over the eyes.

My bad...maybe... in the post I quoted you were saying that the offers themselves were insulting. In the same quote you separately discuss the arrogance as hilarious. I get why you gave the first guy attitude but then you threw just as much attitude at the other guy who, far as I could tell, didn't do anything but make an offer you didn't like. Which backs up the notion that you took personal offense to the offers too...after yelling at the other guy for taking personal offence at bad offers

 

[eco's bones]

What the f*** are people talking about Frolik for? Absolutely 0 interest. A 31 year old 3rd line winger making too much money--why would the Rangers even be interested in him? The point of trading Zucc and Hayes and moving McDonagh etc. last year is to go younger. Frolik does nothing for the Rangers.

 

[blankall]

What the **** are people talking about Frolik for? Absolutely 0 interest. A 31 year old 3rd line winger making too much money--why would the Rangers even be interested in him? The point of trading Zucc and Hayes and moving McDonagh etc. last year is to go younger. Frolik does nothing for the Rangers.

Could you calm the F down. It was largely Rangers fans suggesting that Frolik should be included and Calgary should pay extra for his cap dump. Calgary fans responded that he was not a camp dump, but a cap casualty.

As a Calgary fan, I'd prefer to keep Frolik until the off-season. He will be very valuable depth through a playoff run.

No one is suggesting that he adds value to the NYR.

 

[Sparky93]

What the **** are people talking about Frolik for? Absolutely 0 interest. A 31 year old 3rd line winger making too much money--why would the Rangers even be interested in him? The point of trading Zucc and Hayes and moving McDonagh etc. last year is to go younger. Frolik does nothing for the Rangers.

They’re talking about Frolik because even at the deadline, it’s rare to move nearly $10 million without taking salary back. He’s a defensive specialist, who will be at least 5th on the Rangers scoring chart, post deadline, in only 44 games. He’s signed for one more year, at $4.3 million, which is pretty reasonable considering the Silfverberg extension, who is comparable in almost every way. His value should be close to a 2nd at next years deadline.

 

[Trxjw]

Frolik is a decent player but he's probably not a value add for the Rangers. Just a facilitating piece.

Doubt the Flames deal anyone from their roster though.

 

[treple13]

I can't wait for the deadline to be over so I can stop hearing about Frolik being thrown into trade proposals or people wanting to replace him. The truth is Backlund is BETTER with Frolik. It's really the defensive version of Gaudreau and Monahan. IMO, you don't split the up.

I'm resigned to the fact that he may have to be dealt in the summer due to salary, but it'd be stupid to use him as a piece to acquire a player who while better, may not have the chemistry with our team that Frolik does.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I said that Frolik is a bad contract that the Rangers do not need to take on to and most likely will not do so unless there is some extra compensation involved, based on recent history. But putting words in someone’s mouth is always a good tactic when you’re running out of options, I guess.

..................................Frolik is not a bad contract.

4.3M cap hit for one more year a guy who's got 20 ES points in 44 games played, who's strong defensively and a great PKer. That's dirt cheap and has positive trade value.

For some perspective, Mats Zuccarello has a whopping 23 ES points in 46 GP.

So because Frolik is pacing at 41 points means he’ll finish with it? I guess that’s why he’s a bottom-6 player, because he’s such a consistent scorer.

Frolik has played a top six role on all but two seasons of his career. And one of those two seasons was spent on a team that won the Stanley Cup.

Not only that, but his pacing is better only because of the fact that he’s played less games. Chances are, based on his last couple of seasons that if he had played those games, I’d put good money on the edge in points not being much greater, even without the difference in games.

Yo are really grasping at straws. Frolik has had exactly one weak season as a Flame, which was 2017-18. And there is a clear divide between his pre-injury performance and post-injury performance, which makes it pretty clear why the points and shooting percentage weren't there.

He’s a good player, not saying he’s a bad player, but he’s not needed here.

He's a good player on a solid contract.

Please stop calling him a cap dump. Maybe the rangers don't need him, but the Flames do need his salary going out if they are going to make a significant trade for a lot of the big name players in order to fit them in. That's not a cap dump, it's a cap squeeze. And he's an easy player to move in the off season for a team that can get him ice time. The only situation where he'd be tough to move out is if he were buried on the 4th line, which would only happen if the Flames made an all-in trade for another top line forward and no longer had the ice time available for Frolik only because of their depth.

P.S. - FFVII was a great game.

 

[eco's bones]

Could you calm the F down. It was largely Rangers fans suggesting that Frolik should be included and Calgary should pay extra for his cap dump. Calgary fans responded that he was not a camp dump, but a cap casualty.

As a Calgary fan, I'd prefer to keep Frolik until the off-season. He will be very valuable depth through a playoff run.

No one is suggesting that he adds value to the NYR.

Who's not calm? Is it just because I used an 'F' word? I always use 'F' words.

Frolik shouldn't even be in the conversation though whether it's Rangers or Flames posters bringing him up.

And as far as Zucc and Hayes goes I don't care where they end up as long as the return is good and I don't think your team is in a good position to afford both.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Zucc for 2020 2nd and Dube

 

[eco's bones]

They’re talking about Frolik because even at the deadline, it’s rare to move nearly $10 million without taking salary back. He’s a defensive specialist, who will be at least 5th on the Rangers scoring chart, post deadline, in only 44 games. He’s signed for one more year, at $4.3 million, which is pretty reasonable considering the Silfverberg extension, who is comparable in almost every way. His value should be close to a 2nd at next years deadline.

So after the deadline we're not going to need 31 year old vet forwards. The Rangers aren't going to be going about giving up or not trying to win games (because that's not part of the Rangers DNA) but it's no longer going to be that important if they do lose on any given night. We're in a situation where when we win we win and when we lose we win (as in getting better draft position). So I expect them to be out there trying but I'm sure you've guys know how this kind of shit goes. So what do we need Frolik for? The answer to that question is we don't and I don't care if he'd be No. 5 on our scoring chart and I don't care what Silfverberg is making. It has nothing to do with us. I'd rather win/lose with our own guys and I'd sooner be playing Lias or Lettieri or some other guy come up from Hartford than giving minutes to Frolik.

 

[Sparky93]

So after the deadline we're not going to need 31 year old vet forwards. The Rangers aren't going to be going about giving up or not trying to win games (because that's not part of the Rangers DNA) but it's no longer going to be that important if they do lose on any given night. We're in a situation where when we win we win and when we lose we win (as in getting better draft position). So I expect them to be out there trying but I'm sure you've guys know how this kind of **** goes. So what do we need Frolik for? The answer to that question is we don't and I don't care if he'd be No. 5 on our scoring chart and I don't care what Silfverberg is making. It has nothing to do with us. I'd rather win/lose with our own guys and I'd sooner be playing Lias or Lettieri or some other guy come up from Hartford than giving minutes to Frolik.

Suit yourself, sounds like they’re talking about a Kreider for Brodie deal anyways.