Proposal: Hayes to the Flames

[One Winged Angel]

My bad...maybe... in the post I quoted you were saying that the offers themselves were insulting. In the same quote you separately discuss the arrogance as hilarious. I get why you gave the first guy attitude but then you threw just as much attitude at the other guy who, far as I could tell, didn't do anything but make an offer you didn't like. Which backs up the notion that you took personal offense to the offers too...after yelling at the other guy for taking personal offence at bad offers

I’m not yelling at anyone. If you’ve taken it as that, my apologies, but I’m definitely not yelling at anyone.

Throwing a temper tantrum like the other guy did is a completely different story.

But put yourself in Ranger fans shoes for a second... you wouldn’t think the same thing? I’d have a hard time believing that anyone wouldn’t think that the offers here have been atrocious if they were in our shoes. That’s a big problem with this site. Everyone wants to play fantasy gm and have fun, I totally get it. However, what I don’t get is when people have a problem with getting told the offer the post sucks when it’s flat out terrible.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Alright I’m done with this. Frolik plays on the 2nd line of the 2nd best team in the league, he’s not bottom 6, maybe mid 6. He’s been at or above .5 PPG 5 of the last 6 seasons so yeah, I do think he probably hits it lol.

Going from a team like Calgary to a team like the Rangers? I don’t think he does. You have to factor that in. Regardless, he’s still a redundant piece that the Rangers don’t need. That’s problem on here, people don’t factor in other team’s needs. Not calling you out specifically, but it’s a sitewide problem that’s been around since these boards were created.

It’s not a bad contract, I literally said I’m happy to keep him and move less futures. I also said I was just making a value suggestion and to add both guys money would need to go back, that’s the only reason he was included

Zuccarello and Hayes are expiring contracts and the Rangers could retain to make the deal work for the year. Taking on a year of a redundant player at $4 million doesn’t fit the Rangers plans.

Zuccarello and Hayes aside and what they may/may not fetch, your assessment of Frolik tells me you don’t watch very many games out West, that’s okay

While you watch more games of Frolik than I do, I know more than enough to know that he’s a very similar player to Namestnikov. I’ve watched the guy plenty throughout his career.

I watch a lot more games out west than you think, but I’m certainly not zeroing in on Frolik. As someone who has had Center Ice every year since the inception of the package, it’s ridiculously hard to follow a team as much as you do your own. I’ll tune into Edmonton, Dallas, Toronto, Boston, Tampa and Vancouver a bit. I try to find teams that don’t line up with the Rangers, as it’s easier that way. But I can only follow these teams to a point.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Oh I understand that the Rangers are not getting blue chip, can’t miss prospects in return for rentals, but don’t think for a minute anything that you or anyone else has offered is a quality offer. You would all be screaming bloody murder if the roles were reversed.

Calgary doesn’t seem to have any B-C level pieces. What’s being offered here is crap, it’s not even quantities that the Rangers would be interested in.

The two prospects that went to Ottawa in the Duchene trade are far better than career fringe NHL’ers like Czarnik, 19 years olds playing in 2nd rate junior leagues like Pospisil and near 25 year old busts like Spencer Foo. The offers are insulting and the fact that you think the Ranger fans should just accept this is quite hilarious, being that 2 of the 3 best assets left on the market are Rangers property and there’s been a lot of teams that are reportedly aggressive on those pieces.

Good luck with telling yourselves that you’ll get two top-6 forwards for a joke package, the truth is that those deals don’t happen and Jeff Gorton isn’t Peter Chiarelli.

So what you're saying is you're aware you're not getting A pieces, but anything deemed quantity is crap and not worth the Rangers' time. That's basically anything that's doesn't have an A designation. If you were paying attention you'd see there was two B pieces in that trade. The 1st in 2019 and MEP who has been tracking very well. The two prospects Ottawa got back are not better than Czarnik or Frolik, that's absurd. Abramov is a small forward who isn't 0.5 ppg in the AHL and Davidson is a total throw in. Czarnik and Frolik can be flipped at next year's deadline for more picks. Duchene has seven seasons of 50 points or more, they really aren't that comparable.

I'm not saying that that offer should be meant to blow you away and would be the best the Rangers could do. Just that it's something that could make sense for both sides. Flames fans thought we should of been getting the world for Iginla and Bouwmeester when they were traded too, far better players than Zuccarello and Hayes. Didn't turn out that way, but those moves helped the rebuild anyways.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Zucc has ass-less chaps, he’ll fit right in with Calgary

 

[blankall]

Who's not calm? Is it just because I used an 'F' word? I always use 'F' words.

Frolik shouldn't even be in the conversation though whether it's Rangers or Flames posters bringing him up.

And as far as Zucc and Hayes goes I don't care where they end up as long as the return is good and I don't think your team is in a good position to afford both.

Frolik may be in the conversation to balance cap. The Flames aren't adding substantial amounts to move him though. He's a solid player on a fair contract.

 

[One Winged Angel]

..................................Frolik is not a bad contract.

4.3M cap hit for one more year a guy who's got 20 ES points in 44 games played, who's strong defensively and a great PKer. That's dirt cheap and has positive trade value.

Then keep him, I want nothing to do with him. Good player, not a good fit for a rebuilding team. Why do you think we’re moving Zuccarello?

For some perspective, Mats Zuccarello has a whopping 23 ES points in 46 GP.

Perspective: Zuccarello has 37 points in 46 games despite an absolutely horrendous start to the season in which he was bothered by trade rumors. He’s been one of the most productive players in the entire league since Quinn sat down with him in January.

Frolik has played a top six role on all but two seasons of his career. And one of those two seasons was spent on a team that won the Stanley Cup.

Again, not bashing the player. You can keep him. I’ll say it again... he doesn’t fit into the Rangers plans. They’re moving a 32 year old Zuccarello because of the same reason.

Yo are really grasping at straws. Frolik has had exactly one weak season as a Flame, which was 2017-18. And there is a clear divide between his pre-injury performance and post-injury performance, which makes it pretty clear why the points and shooting percentage weren't there.

So Peters should know what he has (great guy by the way, met him at the draft in Dallas when he did an interview with the station I was working for) and use him in an expanded offensive role, especially if he’s making 4 million.

He's a good player on a solid contract.

I never said he was a bad player. His contract isn’t great though. A little too high for my liking.

Please stop calling him a cap dump. Maybe the rangers don't need him, but the Flames do need his salary going out if they are going to make a significant trade for a lot of the big name players in order to fit them in. That's not a cap dump, it's a cap squeeze. And he's an easy player to move in the off season for a team that can get him ice time. The only situation where he'd be tough to move out is if he were buried on the 4th line, which would only happen if the Flames made an all-in trade for another top line forward and no longer had the ice time available for Frolik only because of their depth.

P.S. - FFVII was a great game.

I use the term because that’s what people have referred to Namestnikov as and they are very similar players making similar money. If one isn’t a cap dump, neither is the other and I’m fine with that. Neither contract is ideal, but both are good players that serve purposes.

PS: FF7 was amazing. Can’t wait for the remake... whenever that comes out. It’s also a reference to Kenny Omega’s finisher... the One Winged Angel. I’m a bit of a wrestling mark and his entrance for his final NJPW match at wrestle kingdom is amazing. Pays homage to Sephiroth and Undertale in one entrance. Amazing how hockey, video games and wrestling all tie into each other (Kenny was a hockey player growing up and good one from what I’ve heard).

 

[One Winged Angel]

So what you're saying is you're aware you're not getting A pieces, but anything deemed quantity is crap and not worth the Rangers' time. That's basically anything that's doesn't have an A designation. If you were paying attention you'd see there was two B pieces in that trade. The 1st in 2019 and MEP who has been tracking very well. The two prospects Ottawa got back are not better than Czarnik or Frolik, that's absurd. Abramov is a small forward who isn't 0.5 ppg in the AHL and Davidson is a total throw in. Czarnik and Frolik can be flipped at next year's deadline for more picks. Duchene has seven seasons of 50 points or more, Zuccarello and Hayes have two between them, they really aren't that comparable.

Pospisil is 19 playing in a junior league that the vast majority of players who have a shot at being NHL’ers leave for the CHL or the NCAA after their draft years. He’s having a nice season in his D+1 year in a second rate junior league. The odds of him making the NHL aren’t great. I’m pretty sure we can agree on that.

What I’m saying is that throwing stuff at Gorton like Czarnik and Frolik has no appeal to the Rangers. If that’s Calgary’s best offer (none of us actually know) then Gorton most likely will deal Zuccarello and/or Hayes elsewhere. If Frolik is in the deal, based on recent history, Gorton will most likely require some sort of extra compensation. I can’t see him taking on $4 million in salary when they want to be in on Panarin, so something better has to be in there if that’s the case. I don’t see what exactly is wrong in saying that.

I'm not saying that that offer should be meant to blow you away and would be the best the Rangers could do. Just that it's something that could make sense for both sides. Flames fans thought we should of been getting the world for Iginla and Bouwmeester when they were traded too, far better players than Zuccarello and Hayes. Didn't turn out that way, but those moves helped the rebuild anyways.

Not you specifically, but other posters have made these offers out to be “good” offers. I wouldn’t call them good offers. I would also say that if both of them were to go to Calgary, the offer would have to be much better. Problem is on this site, not a lot of people actually want to give to get. Not saying you in specific, but it’s the common theme that I’ve seen in my near 13 years of being on here.

If you were Gorton, would you honestly take that deal and if so, then why?

 

[eco's bones]

Frolik may be in the conversation to balance cap. The Flames aren't adding substantial amounts to move him though. He's a solid player on a fair contract.

The Rangers took Spooner and Beleskey to make it work cap wise last year--that's why Ryan Lindgren was included in the deal.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Pospisil is 19 playing in a junior league that the vast majority of players who have a shot at being NHL’ers leave for the CHL or the NCAA after their draft years. He’s having a nice season in his D+1 year in a second rate junior league. The odds of him making the NHL aren’t great. I’m pretty sure we can agree on that.

What I’m saying is that throwing stuff at Gorton like Czarnik and Frolik has no appeal to the Rangers. If that’s Calgary’s best offer (none of us actually know) then Gorton most likely will deal Zuccarello and/or Hayes elsewhere. If Frolik is in the deal, based on recent history, Gorton will most likely require some sort of extra compensation. I can’t see him taking on $4 million in salary when they want to be in on Panarin, so something better has to be in there if that’s the case. I don’t see what exactly is wrong in saying that.



Not you specifically, but other posters have made these offers out to be “good” offers. I wouldn’t call them good offers. I would also say that if both of them were to go to Calgary, the offer would have to be much better. Problem is on this site, not a lot of people actually want to give to get. Not saying you in specific, but it’s the common theme that I’ve seen in my near 13 years of being on here.

If you were Gorton, would you honestly take that deal and if so, then why?

Sorry, I linked it in the other post but the prospect I'm talking about is Mathias Emilio Petterson from Norway. He's having a very nice start to his NCAA career as an 18 year old freshman. Probably our 4th or 5th rated forward prospect, whereas Popisil is probably closer to 10th or 11th. Though I do like him too, very spunky but ya bit of a longshot.

Czarnik and Frolik are nothing special but they're not worthless either. Frolik was actually signed as part of our rebuild. I know the prevailing attitude for fans in a rebuild is play the youth as much as possible but there's something to be said about a quality veteran who takes his job seriously and has a nonstop motor. He's filled a gap quite nicely, and him and Backlund have been great bringing Tkachuk along. Very likely if both were given any kind of role with the Rangers next season Gorton would be able to flip them for something at that deadline, or even something potentially at this deadline. You want your kids to be competing and earning their ice time, otherwise you end up like Edmonton or Buffalo.

Definitely it's a theme people don't want to give up much to get. To be honest, the Flames just don't exactly have a lot to give. The prospect pool is somewhat shallow after graduating it's best for the last several years. The picks are what they are, and if Treliving moves this year's 1st it will mean not picking in the first two rounds two years in a row. If I was Gorton I'd probably try to get more elsewhere in separate deals. But having said that I'm not seeing as many potential buyers as years past, and many more potential sellers. Even the Flames don't exactly need Zuccarello or Hayes to fill a hole, would just be good to have more scoring depth. Sometimes it's better to take what you can get, rebuilding is largely about acquiring as many assets as possible, having as many fingers in as many pies as you can manage. The Flames have a 4th rounder as their leading scorer, an undrafted overager as their best D, a 4th round pick as the other half of that top pairing, two 2nd rounders holding down their bottom pair, and a 6th rounder and another undrafted player as making up 2/3 of what has been an awesome 4th line. They found a starting goalie in a third tier Czech league. To be successful in a rebuild you have to find some success through unconventional means, so not just hitting on your 1st round, but deep into the later ranges.