Player Discussion Has Nikolai Goldobin made Sven Baertschi expendable?

[Soups On]

He is on a 37 pace DESPITE only shooting 4.9%.

Also according to the Canucks Army guys he's also good at shot assists and zone entries. This is a Ben Hutton situation all over again.

How many posts has he hit this past week or two? I feel like its something stupid like 10 times. Those dont contribute to his shot totals but man, convert on half of those and its respectable numbers. Hes shown flashes of skill and finish before but seems to lack any of that finish this season.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Can't we get rid of both of them? Please?

Keep Baertschi for now. He's a placeholder for the top 6 LW position for now. We don't have any upgrades on him atm.

 

[WTG]

No, it isn't.

His advanced stats are getting dragged upward by Pettersson. The Canucks Army guy are useless.

If you double his shooting percentage and goal totals ... his numbers still suck for his usage.

Suck compared to what.
What arbitrary point totals does Goldobin need to hit to not "suck" compared to his usage?

Also, let's do what you suggest and up his goal totals, now he is scoring at a 48 point rate. Which is perfectly serviceable.
This is an example of people just getting frustrated that we don't have a #1 winger (Boeser injured) to play with Pettersson.
Yes, Goldobin is not a 1st line winger. Does that make him trash? No. Just like it doesn't make Baertschi trash because he isn't one either.

Goldobin and Baertschi are serviceable players.

 

[Canucker]

Keep Baertschi for now. He's a placeholder for the top 6 LW position for now. We don't have any upgrades on him atm.

Hopefully our savant-like GM will find us one.

 

[bossram]

Suck compared to what.
What arbitrary point totals does Goldobin need to hit to not "suck" compared to his usage?

Also, let's do what you suggest and up his goal totals, now he is scoring at a 48 point rate. Which is perfectly serviceable.
This is an example of people just getting frustrated that we don't have a #1 winger (Boeser injured) to play with Pettersson.
Yes, Goldobin is not a 1st line winger. Does that make him trash? No. Just like it doesn't make Baertschi trash because he isn't one either.

Goldobin and Baertschi are serviceable players.

Good post.

Goldy and Baerschi are perfectly fine complementary players. We just don't have a ton of guys they can complement. Ideally, we'd have Boeser and another top-line calibre winger in the top-six, so Goldy and Bae can be the "3rd wheels" on their lines. We don't have that though.

I would look at trading Baertschi if we can get decent value. Complementary guys are replaceable, and we could probably get equivalent performance from someone cheaper. But they're both far from trash.

 

[BROCK HUGHES]

How many concussions has Beartschi had now..

 

[MS]

Suck compared to what.
What arbitrary point totals does Goldobin need to hit to not "suck" compared to his usage?

Also, let's do what you suggest and up his goal totals, now he is scoring at a 48 point rate. Which is perfectly serviceable.
This is an example of people just getting frustrated that we don't have a #1 winger (Boeser injured) to play with Pettersson.
Yes, Goldobin is not a 1st line winger. Does that make him trash? No. Just like it doesn't make Baertschi trash because he isn't one either.

Goldobin and Baertschi are serviceable players.

48 points given his usage still sucks, especially given his lousy defensive play.

Currently the guy has 4 primary points in 22 games while getting 70% zone starts and heaps of PP time next to a guy shredding the league. While being a turnover machine. That's f***ing brutal.

Just because Pettersson and those zone starts are dragging Goldobin to good advanced stats doesn't mean he's been effective.

It's the exact same broken logic and lack of understanding of advanced stats that led the idiots at Canucks Army to proclaim Pat Wiercioch a home run signing based on his good Corsi Rel generated while getting 65% zone starts next to Erik Karlsson.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

How much time have they played apart? I don’t think we have a large enough sample size to make any sort of conclusion based off of possession data.

Same happened to Horvat + Boeser last year when playing with Goldobin.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Hopefully our savant-like GM will find us one.

How do you know he hasn’t already? Dahlene, Lind, Lockwood, this is a marathon not a sprint

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Hopefully our savant-like GM will find us one.

The draft has, so far, brought us our three key top-six pieces: Horvat (9th, 2013), Boeser (23rd, 2015), Pettersson (5th, 2017).

Another top draft pick would presumably land us another future core member of our top-six. I believe an elite scoring line can function with two elite pieces. Elite duos have historically been the key to any successful scoring line.

Baertschi is a secondary piece who, for a lower price than the top-four forwards will command, can play a complementary role on a line with them. Likewise, that is the role that one would hope Jonathan Dahlen will fulfill one day. That is the role that Jake Virtanen may play if he continues his recent level of progression.

 

[Hit the post]

The draft has, so far, brought us our three key top-six pieces: Horvat (9th, 2013), Boeser (23rd, 2015), Pettersson (5th, 2017).

Another top draft pick would presumably land us another future core member of our top-six. I believe an elite scoring line can function with two elite pieces. Elite duos have historically been the key to any successful scoring line.

Baertschi is a secondary piece who, for a lower price than the top-four forwards will command, can play a complementary role on a line with them. Likewise, that is the role that one would hope Jonathan Dahlen will fulfill one day.

2013 (Horvat) was Gillis.

We need a “hit” that is a blue liner

 

[Blade Paradigm]

2013 (Horvat) was Gillis.

I wasn't correlating managers with picks. I was discussing core top-six pieces with regards to how we might acquire an additional one. Vancouver's core scoring forwards have all been drafted in the first round, and in all likelihood, this is how we'll acquire the next core forward.

Players like Baertschi and Goldobin are not expected to become core pieces. Rarely are core forwards traded away willingly, and when they are, the price is usually steep.

 

[Hit the post]

I wasn't correlating managers with picks. I was discussing core top-six pieces with regards to how we might acquire an additional one. Vancouver's core scoring forwards have all been drafted in the first round, and in all likelihood, this is how we'll acquire the next core forward.

Players like Baertschi and Goldobin are not expected to become core pieces. Rarely are core forwards traded away willingly, and if they are, the price is usually steep.

Fair enough. Still my other point is valid. We need a “core” D far, far more than another core forward IMHO. I’m not too worried about the team scoring goals as much as preventing the other team from scoring.

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Fair enough. Still my other point is valid. We need a “core” D far, far more than another core forward IMHO. I’m not too worried about the team scoring goals as much as preventing the other team from scoring.

It's sensible to want to improve the defence first and foremost. I think both issues need to be addressed. Whereas the Canucks still have a few notable defence prospects in the system, however, there is nothing left in terms of high-end forward prospects after Pettersson. I don't think we can fairly expect anybody else in the system to develop into a high-end scorer. We can reasonably expect Juolevi and Hughes to supplant some of the teams' current defensemen, although it's true the team needs to add a legitimate high-minute, all-around defenceman.

Scoring is an issue for Vancouver -- since 2015-16, the Canucks have been the lowest scoring team in the NHL: 2.42 GF/GP, behind the Coyotes and Sabres with their 2.46 GF/GP averages. Since 2015-16, their GA/GP average has been third-worst in the NHL at 3.04. Those averages reflect a team that is horrendous at both ends of the ice.

The team needs a high-end defenceman, but this team isn't worth much competitively until it addresses both problems. I don't think any of the top defencemen in this draft are better than the top forwards, so if we land a Top 5 pick, I think we'll be looking at adding that fourth core forward to our team.

 

[lawrence]

Sad for me to hit no.

 

[Hit the post]

I’d argue having no decent offensive defenseman plays a factor in the amount of team offence (especially the power play). Doesn’t necessarily have to be 1st pairing guy (though obviously that would help). With Edler and Taney not getting any younger, there going to have to be replaced soon or have capable replacements down the pipeline else there’s just going to be another problem that needs to be addressed.

But back to the thread topic...both players seem to be placeholders until something better comes along at this point.

 

[Bleach Clean]

48 points given his usage still sucks, especially given his lousy defensive play.

Currently the guy has 4 primary points in 22 games while getting 70% zone starts and heaps of PP time next to a guy shredding the league. While being a turnover machine. That's ****ing brutal.

Just because Pettersson and those zone starts are dragging Goldobin to good advanced stats doesn't mean he's been effective.

It's the exact same broken logic and lack of understanding of advanced stats that led the idiots at Canucks Army to proclaim Pat Wiercioch a home run signing based on his good Corsi Rel generated while getting 65% zone starts next to Erik Karlsson.

It’s not broken logic unless you break it. To my mind, you haven’t done that until you show what an average top6 forward would do given a similar usage.

That’s why WTG rightly says “compared to what” in his post.

 

[Blade Paradigm]

I’d argue having no decent offensive defenseman plays a factor in the amount of team offence (especially the power play). Doesn’t necessarily have to be 1st pairing guy (though obviously that would help).

True.

The team currently has no defencemen who can transition the puck up the ice to the forwards with crisp outlet passes. Ben Hutton has shown some consistency in his ability to carry the puck up. To be honest, the only other defenceman who has shown any ability to carry the puck up the ice with any consistency has been Alex Biega, although he doesn't possess the offensive ability to generate plays. I feel that he would be better suited to dumping the puck into the corner upon hitting the blue line than putting it on net. I think a few deficiencies in other areas keep him from being a staple in our lineup.

The defensive corps needs much improvement. Juolevi's strength appears to be his outlet-passing abilities, whereas Hughes is a superior puck carrier, but that's nowhere near enough. There are no one-timer threats from the back end.

 

[F A N]

It's the exact same broken logic and lack of understanding of advanced stats that led the idiots at Canucks Army to proclaim Pat Wiercioch a home run signing based on his good Corsi Rel generated while getting 65% zone starts next to Erik Karlsson.

But you consider Biega a #5 Dman in the NHL. I remember you heaping the same high praise on Ryan Stanton. What broken logic is that and lack of understanding of hockey is that?

 

[WTG]

48 points given his usage still sucks, especially given his lousy defensive play.

Currently the guy has 4 primary points in 22 games while getting 70% zone starts and heaps of PP time next to a guy shredding the league. While being a turnover machine. That's ****ing brutal.

Just because Pettersson and those zone starts are dragging Goldobin to good advanced stats doesn't mean he's been effective.

It's the exact same broken logic and lack of understanding of advanced stats that led the idiots at Canucks Army to proclaim Pat Wiercioch a home run signing based on his good Corsi Rel generated while getting 65% zone starts next to Erik Karlsson.

So you mention turnovers, offensive zone starts, primary points, and Goldobin being carried by Pettersson's advanced stats, let's tackle these issues.

Let us talk about Turnovers.
On record, Goldobin has less turnovers then Pettersson by 1 (14 to 13). Also he is tied with Pettersson in takeaways with 11.
So if he was a "turnover machine" it certainly isn't showing up in the statistics.

Offensive zone starts
Goldobin does in fact start in the offensive zone quite a lot, 80 offensive zone starts in 22 games.
So 3.6 offensive zone starts even strength a game.
9.3 on the fly-shifts 5on5 per game
2.4 neutral zone shifts per game
1 defensive zone shift per game
Pettersson by the way, very similar stats
4.2 OZs/game
9.4 OnFlys/game
3.1 NZs/game
1.5 DZs/game

Goldobin
7.34 CF% Rel
Pettersson
1.12 CF% Rel

Also, how is it possible that Pettersson is dragging Goldobin up in advanced stats when Goldobin has much better advanced stats? Wouldn't that be the other way around? Look at the With or Without stats they preform well TOGETHER. Pettersson sees the most advance stats success WITH Goldobin.


As for Primary points, If Goldobin wasn't shooting at 4.9% primary points wouldn't be an issue.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

So you mention turnovers, offensive zone starts, primary points, and Goldobin being carried by Pettersson's advanced stats, let's tackle these issues.

Let us talk about Turnovers.
On record, Goldobin has less turnovers then Pettersson by 1 (14 to 13). Also he is tied with Pettersson in takeaways with 11.
So if he was a "turnover machine" it certainly isn't showing up in the statistics.

Offensive zone starts
Goldobin does in fact start in the offensive zone quite a lot, 80 offensive zone starts in 22 games.
So 3.6 offensive zone starts even strength a game.
9.3 on the fly-shifts 5on5 per game
2.4 neutral zone shifts per game
1 defensive zone shift per game
Pettersson by the way, very similar stats
4.2 OZs/game
9.4 OnFlys/game
3.1 NZs/game
1.5 DZs/game

Goldobin
7.34 CF% Rel
Pettersson
1.12 CF% Rel

Also, how is it possible that Pettersson is dragging Goldobin up in advanced stats when Goldobin has much better advanced stats? Wouldn't that be the other way around? Look at the With or Without stats they preform well TOGETHER. Pettersson sees the most advance stats success WITH Goldobin.

I love you. I almost dug these stats up but decided I don't have the energy.

 

[Duodenum]

So you mention turnovers, offensive zone starts, primary points, and Goldobin being carried by Pettersson's advanced stats, let's tackle these issues.

Let us talk about Turnovers.
On record, Goldobin has less turnovers then Pettersson by 1 (14 to 13). Also he is tied with Pettersson in takeaways with 11.
So if he was a "turnover machine" it certainly isn't showing up in the statistics.

Offensive zone starts
Goldobin does in fact start in the offensive zone quite a lot, 80 offensive zone starts in 22 games.
So 3.6 offensive zone starts even strength a game.
9.3 on the fly-shifts 5on5 per game
2.4 neutral zone shifts per game
1 defensive zone shift per game
Pettersson by the way, very similar stats
4.2 OZs/game
9.4 OnFlys/game
3.1 NZs/game
1.5 DZs/game

Goldobin
7.34 CF% Rel
Pettersson
1.12 CF% Rel

Also, how is it possible that Pettersson is dragging Goldobin up in advanced stats when Goldobin has much better advanced stats? Wouldn't that be the other way around? Look at the With or Without stats they preform well TOGETHER. Pettersson sees the most advance stats success WITH Goldobin.


As for Primary points, If Goldobin wasn't shooting at 4.9% primary points wouldn't be an issue.

To interject on a single point.

Most of Goldobin's turnovers are in the offensive zone, where they don't track turnovers. It's those turnovers (especially on the powerplay) which has everyone annoyed at his play.

 

[Peter10]

How much time have they played apart? I don’t think we have a large enough sample size to make any sort of conclusion based off of possession data.

Unless my math fails me, Pettersson played 74.59% of his EV TOI with Goldobin

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

 

[RobertKron]

But you consider Biega a #5 Dman in the NHL. I remember you heaping the same high praise on Ryan Stanton. What broken logic is that and lack of understanding of hockey is that?

Good point on Goldobin here.

 

[CherryToke]

Also, how is it possible that Pettersson is dragging Goldobin up in advanced stats when Goldobin has much better advanced stats? Wouldn't that be the other way around?

You don't actually believe this right?