Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 3

[JSR 56]

I realize that. However, the goal was not to improve SIGNIFICANTLY, unless it could be done in an opportunistic way in terms of price in young assets, (hence a bid for "free" options like Duchene and Aho) , or unless it could be done in the form of bringing in an impact player who would simultaneously fit age wise with our future core. Since such opportunity has not yet presented itself, the goal must remain to accumulate draft picks (Shaw trade), while trying to improve a 96 points roster by rebuilding the bottom of the lineup. For example, there's no use trading for a guy like Leddy at the cost of giving up significant assets in picks and/or prospects.

So improve just a bit? 97points is our new goal. Forget the cup, let's get that 97 points!

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

The Habs youth may improve, but their old guys (Price, Weber, Petry) are in their declining years.

The old guys (as you say) are not that old to show signifiant decline. But I guess you would say Markov at 40 is not old. Contradiction?

 

[ECWHSWI]

The old guys (as you say) are not that old to show signifiant decline. But I guess you would say Markov at 40 is not old. Contradiction?

Weber will be 34 whent he season starts, and missed 80+ games in the last two years, he's clearly #1 candidate for a fast decline.

does not mean it will happen, he may be another Markov (just as good at 35/36, after injuries), but odds are not in his favor.

 

[DAChampion]

The old guys (as you say) are not that old to show signifiant decline. But I guess you would say Markov at 40 is not old. Contradiction?

Why are you sticking made-up words into my mouth?

 

[Runner77]

Why are you sticking made-up words into my mouth?

Unwritten modus operandi on this forum.

 

[Whitesnake]

The old guys (as you say) are not that old to show signifiant decline. But I guess you would say Markov at 40 is not old. Contradiction?

No contradiction. Style of play helps or hinder the age. Chara could play till 50 if his speed would be up to par 'cause he's never challenged. Markov was brillant enough to avoid being hit and doesn't play a physical style. Weber is not the same thing. You can't just look at an age and see who plays old. There are guys not 30 that looks old.

 

[Whitesnake]

So improve just a bit? 97points is our new goal. Forget the cup, let's get that 97 points!

Yep. No idea why people keep bringing the points as a proof of something...

 

[ECWHSWI]

Yep. No idea why people keep bringing the points as a proof of something...

moral victory

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Weber will be 34 whent he season starts, and missed 80+ games in the last two years, he's clearly #1 candidate for a fast decline.

does not mean it will happen, he may be another Markov (just as good at 35/36, after injuries), but odds are not in his favor.

Markov in his prime was one of the best D to counter an opponent while following him close with his fast skating and make him lose the puck. If he loose a bit of his speed he will not be effective anymore. He can't compensate with toughness, he never did and he will not start at 40.

Weber on the other hand is similar to Chara. His size combined with his long arms will always be there so he don't need to be so fast. And for toughness he is there when it counts. He might have missed a lot of games, so was Markov for about 2 years and he came back strong without injuries for many years after. Why not the same with Weber? Or you have infos about his health and you don't want to share?

 

[Mudz]

So improve just a bit? 97points is our new goal. Forget the cup, let's get that 97 points!

I agree with you! We should aim for the same amount of points that the last year Cup winner.

1 more win and 1 more lost in OT is what we need!

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

No contradiction. Style of play helps or hinder the age. Chara could play till 50 if his speed would be up to par 'cause he's never challenged. Markov was brillant enough to avoid being hit and doesn't play a physical style. Weber is not the same thing. You can't just look at an age and see who plays old. There are guys not 30 that looks old.

Anyone would agree with you because it doesn't mean anything specificly. It's arguments that makes general consensus but nothing precise in that case.

If Markov doesn't have a physical game and if he loose some speed and endurance, tell me how he is superior to Kulak. He might be very intelligent on the ice and take better decisions, so in the same logic why not bring back Koivu? Koivu at 45 might be better than any Nick Cousins, heh? lol

 

[CauZuki]

Yep. No idea why people keep bringing the points as a proof of something...

These arguments consistently ignore how other teams prospects are also developping and teams around us have improved significantly. We have to be exponentially better than last year just to produce similar results (bubble playoff team). I don't see it happening unless a bunch of teams in the East take a dive...

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Why are you sticking made-up words into my mouth?

I wrote 'I guess you would say'. It's a subtle difference between you said and you didn't said.
A lot of people here argue Markov isn't old at 40 and I was a bit surprised at the special treatment he have here because of all the good years he gave us Mtl fans. At 40, not every player is good like Chelios was, or Ron Francis and etc. Even Paul Coffey stopped playing at 40 with a total of 18 games and zero goals.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Markov in his prime was one of the best D to counter an opponent while following him close with his fast skating and make him lose the puck. If he loose a bit of his speed he will not be effective anymore. He can't compensate with toughness, he never did and he will not start at 40.

Weber on the other hand is similar to Chara. His size combined with his long arms will always be there so he don't need to be so fast. And for toughness he is there when it counts. He might have missed a lot of games, so was Markov for about 2 years and he came back strong without injuries for many years after. Why not the same with Weber? Or you have infos about his health and you don't want to share?

who gives a f*** about that, I was clearly talking his after injuries years, at 35, 36 you know...

nobody is like 8ft / 400 lb Chara in this league, seriously... and his toughness is overrated, he was quite soft (Weber) last season atually for a guy his size/strenght and reputation.

Like I said (did you take time to read my post ???), it is possible he is another Markov who will be just as good after missing LOTS of time because of injuries (I'll repeat, at 35/36 not 40, 45 or 50), but considering MOST players who do get injured past 30 (I'm not talking about missing a week for a broken nail) tend do decline earlier and/or faster...


odds are not in his favor

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

who gives a **** about that, I was clearly talking his after injuries years, at 35, 36 you know...

nobody is like 8ft / 400 lb Chara in this league, seriously... and his toughness is overrated, he was quite soft (Weber) last season atually for a guy his size/strenght and reputation.

Like I said (did you take time to read my post ???), it is possible he is another Markov who will be just as good after missing LOTS of time because of injuries (I'll repeat, at 35/36 not 40, 45 or 50), but considering MOST players who do get injured past 30 (I'm not talking about missing a week for a broken nail) tend do decline earlier and/or faster...


odds are not in his favor

Odds are not in his favor but nothing is sure. Some people say he will decline, maybe it's true, some say he will not decline fast, they can be right. Not many people here would bet Domi would be as good as he was last year, including me but it doesn't mean we know nothing about hockey. Odds are wrong many times. That's life. There is one Blues fan who bet something like 5000$ that Blues will win the Cup and he won something like 400,000$. He is a genious or he is lucky, you choose.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Odds are not in his favor but nothing is sure. Some people say he will decline, maybe it's true, some say he will not decline fast, they can be right. Not many people here would bet Domi would be as good as he was last year, including me but it doesn't mean we know nothing about hockey. Odds are wrong many times. That's life. There is one Blues fan who bet something like 5000$ that Blues will win the Cup and he won something like 400,000$. He is a genious or he is lucky, you choose.

Domi is not a 30+ player coming off surgery, missing 80+ games the last two seasons.

if odds were wrong that often, odds would be different, you know...

 

[Milhouse40]

Hard to believe that the GM did so little to improve this team this off season. 8th year, no accountability.


A sound strategy to extend Price 8 years, trade for an older Weber and then not surrounding them with a roster of players that can get you into the playoffs.

Now that they traded Shaw you have to ask yourself what was the point?

It was a favor for his good old favorite Shaw.

It was said after the trade that Shaw seems to never really left Chicago and even players told him to try to cut the cord.
Then Shaw goes out after the trade telling how Bergevin is a great guy and everybody loves him, class act he said.
Bergevin trading him back to his former team wasn't a coincidence.

 

[Runner77]

It was a favor for his good old favorite Shaw.

It was said after the trade that Shaw seems to never really left Chicago and even players told him to try to cut the cord.
Then Shaw goes out after the trade telling how Bergevin is a great guy and everybody loves him, class act he said.
Bergevin trading him back to his former team wasn't a coincidence.

Sure thing but Bergevin’s commitment has to be to the Habs first and not about ensuring Shaw’s happiness on some other team.

Only question we need to look at is how well did MB do with the trade — did he get a fair return or did he settle for less given the productive season that Shaw just had?

 

[Rapala]

Depends. I could see us making it as a wildcard team just as easily as we could end up with a top 5 pick. I think a few players played above their head last season, and while a few others have room for improvement, I think a lot will depend on if we can build some momentum early in the season.

Once again the top three Tampa Boston and Toronto will beat us and we will find ourselves competing with the Met for that last spot providing we can distance Florida and Buffalo which is no given. We aren't in a very strong position and top 5 may be closer than many think.

 

[Miller Time]

Sure thing but Bergevin’s commitment has to be to the Habs first and not about ensuring Shaw’s happiness on some other team.

Only question we need to look at is how well did MB do with the trade — did he get a fair return or did he settle for less given the productive season that Shaw just had?

28yrs old,
.75ppg, good for 29th in the league for RW, better productivity than Laine, Gallagher, Nyquist, Ehlers, Silferberg... among others.
most phsyical winger in a very small/soft forward group

Nyquist, who is 2 years older, was traded as a rental for a 2nd & conditional 3rd (cup finals or re-signed).
Shaw, was traded for a 2nd & 3rd. He has injury history, which is a risk, but he also has both a great cap hit (if he continues to contribute anywhere btw his PB last year and his career average) AND his contract is 60% paid off (making it even more valuable for the Hawks, should he stay healthy...)

So yeah, pretty terrible trade for the Habs when you factor in all of the variables. We got mediocre trade value for an asset that we both need in our lineup (or at least, what he brought) AND which has a strong shot at becoming quite valuable as a trade piece in coming seasons...

Shaw, if injuries don't end his career, should be able to produce in the .45-.65 range at a 3.9M cap hit... while only costing his team ~2.9M/year for the next 3 years.

Heck, with the expansion draft coming, and no NMC, at worst he's a great buffer for that (he'd be very attractive to Seattle).

Considering our current needs, and his contract, he should only have been traded to a team willing to pay .75ppg/<4M cap hit value... which would've been a 1st+.

Terrible trade, perpetuation of the "bro" culture that MB facilitates... complete failure at doing the GM job.

 

[Rapala]

moral victory

I criticized MT for pulling points out of his ass while not improving the group one iota over the season.
Can we just end the season a better club than when we started for once? That would be a moral victory in my books.

 

[Whitesnake]

Anyone would agree with you because it doesn't mean anything specificly. It's arguments that makes general consensus but nothing precise in that case.

If Markov doesn't have a physical game and if he loose some speed and endurance, tell me how he is superior to Kulak. He might be very intelligent on the ice and take better decisions, so in the same logic why not bring back Koivu? Koivu at 45 might be better than any Nick Cousins, heh? lol

Wow that's all over the place...where did I say that I prefer Markov over Kulak? Koivu over Cousins? Koivu doesen't play hockey. What's your point if you have one?

I'm just saying you cannot solely look at age to determine who is old or not.

 

[angusyoung]

Domi is not a 30+ player coming off surgery, missing 80+ games the last two seasons.

if odds were wrong that often, odds would be different, you know...

When did Domi have surgery? that led to him missing all those games? Don't recall that. Should get around 30 this year though,barring injuries.

 

[angusyoung]

He should be axed regardless.

So ax him now? what's the point with that now?

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Wow that's all over the place...where did I say that I prefer Markov over Kulak? Koivu over Cousins? Koivu doesen't play hockey. What's your point if you have one?

I'm just saying you cannot solely look at age to determine who is old or not.

Even if I don't look at his age, his last year production of 2 g, 12 a in 62 games tells me he has declined. In a lesser league like khl. I would expect him to have 0,55 ppg to make a come back in nhl, not 0,29 ppg.