Confirmed with Link: Habs sign Otto Leskinen to 2 year ELC

[Runner77]

Excuse my ignorance, but where did he sign?

Detroit.

 

[Runner77]

 

[NotProkofievian]

But what about those situations when you HAVE to defend, no matter how good you are moving the puck up ice. After all, you cannot keep a skilled, thinking and hard working opponent from possessing the puck all the time. Should we just ignore if a defender is useless at actually defending? Both qualities are equally important IMO.

No, both qualities are not equally important. Thinking both qualities are equally important leads to giving the Karl Alzners of the world way too much money. The shutdown dman is a dying if not completely dead breed.

 

[CauZuki]

The Finnish M.A.B...

 

[Habs Halifax]

But what about those situations when you HAVE to defend, no matter how good you are moving the puck up ice. After all, you cannot keep a skilled, thinking and hard working opponent from possessing the puck all the time. Should we just ignore if a defender is useless at actually defending? Both qualities are equally important IMO.

Agreed. Mete is a great puck mover but his ability to battle down low in tight spaces and not loose the puck can be a weakness. Regardless, I think this is a good signing. The defensive strength vs offensive skills were just something some of us were trying to evaluate.

 

[LaP]

Curious what that is now? Lol

Not familiar with it.

Probably this : Dave Tippett And Thinking About Defense Differently. Basically it doesn't matter how good you are at defense if you can't get the puck out of the zone and spend most of your team in the defensive zone you will hurt your time and be a very useful player only when there's a pk or when you protect a lead in the last 2 minutes and there's an extra attacker on the ice.

It's basically the Josh Gorges 101 class. Back in the days i was amazed at how much good press Gorges was getting. I mean yeah he was good in his own zone but he was terrible at getting the puck out of it. Also when he had the puck on his stick in the offensive zone he would dump it behind the net 90% of the time instead of trying a shot or a pass. He was turning the puck over in the offensive zone many times a game but the problem is the giveaways statistic doesn't count turnover resulting from a dump.

He was not any better than Emelin despite being a better defender. Emelin was as terrible in the offensive zone but he was a little bit more effective at getting the puck out of the defensive zone by killing the offense at the blue line with his checks letting his partner recover the puck in the corner without being bothered by anyone while Gorges was just giving the blue line for free and was quickly in defensive mode in front of his net. That's pretty much the only thing Gorges did well standing in front of the net waiting for the puck to hit him. He was grossly overrated imo.

 

[Habs Halifax]

No, both qualities are not equally important. Thinking both qualities are equally important leads to giving the Karl Alzners of the world way too much money. The shutdown dman is a dying if not completely dead breed.

Shutdown Dman is not tied solely to players like Alzner. That's exaggerating it and I know what your saying based on the past. But Juulsen is also a shutdown type that skates well. So is Kulak. Ability to move the puck is important and we all agree on this but ability to not get over matched in the strength department and reliability in your own end is also important.

 

[CauZuki]

Excuse my ignorance, but where did he sign?

Finnish news reporting he signed with Detroit, hasn't been "officially" confirmed.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Probably this : Dave Tippett And Thinking About Defense Differently. Basically it doesn't matter how good you are at defense if you can't get the puck out of the zone and spend most of your time in the defensive zone you will hurt your time and be a very useful player only when there's a pk or when you protect a lead in the last 2 minutes and there's an extra attacker on the ice.

It's basically the Josh Gorges 101 class. Back in the days i was amazed at how much good press Gorges was getting. I mean yeah he was good in his own zone but he was terrible at getting the puck out of it. Also when he had the puck on his stick in the offensive zone he would dump it behind the net 90% of the time instead of trying a shot or a pass. He was turning the puck over in the offensive zone many times a game but the problem is the giveaways statistic doesn't count turnover resulting from a dump.

He was not any better than Emelin despite being a better defender. Emelin was as terrible in the offensive zone but he was a little bit more effective at getting the puck out of the defensive zone by killing the offense at the blue line with his checks letting his partner recover the puck in the corner without being bothered by anyone while Gorges was just giving the blue line for free and was quickly in defensive mode in front of his net. That's pretty much the only thing Gorges did well standing in front of the net waiting for the puck to hit him. He was grossly overrated imo.

Question: Why is a shutdown D man in today's NHL compared to Alzner and not others who are also big and skate well? Like Vlasic for example?

 

[montreal]

Nice pickup, he led his team in scoring for defensemen was tied for 2nd overall on the team in assists, 4th on the team in points. His team was terrible this year, they had a -33 goal diff, only 3 teams in liiga were worse (Kotka's former team being the worst)

He's 2 months older then Juulsen so it's like adding back a '15 pick. In his age 21 season he had more points then Ylonen in his age 19 season just for perspective. Will be interesting to see how he looks at camp, they could loan him back to his liiga team but he would count against the 50 not that I expect to see them do that.

I would still sign Tyszka and Walford since LD is such a big need but I'm guessing neither get signed although hopefully they sign one of them at least.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think what a Dman is "supposed to do" in today's hockey has changed from what it's been traditionally.

For me at least, there's less emphasis on being able to defend down low - and more emphasis on being able to move the puck out of your zone, quickly, efficiently and with poise.

That's not to say that defending isn't important, it obviously is...but given how much opposing forecheckers have free reign to bare down on Dmen, having the ability to retrieve the puck, shake off a forechecker and send your team into the opponents zone with control of the puck is just as important IMO.

Shutdown types can be guys that skate well and move the puck well but have 20-25 pts potential. Lets not pretend there are plenty of top 4D's in the league that fit this category.

With me the Shutdown type has changed from guys like Alzner to guys like Vlasic. I consider Juulsen and Kulak in this category as well. Big bodies that skate well and play physical and have ability to make smart passes

 

[NotProkofievian]

Shutdown Dman is not tied solely to players like Alzner. That's exaggerating it and I know what your saying based on the past. But Juulsen is also a shutdown type that skates well. So is Kulak. Ability to move the puck is important and we all agree on this but ability to not get over matched in the strength department and reliability in your own end is also important.

Who cares about Juulsen and Kulak. The best dmen in the world, the most valuable, the ones winning the norris nominations and trophies are all puck moving dmen. In the dead puck era, ''shut down'' dmen had some value because they could essentially break the rules to nullify their superior competition. In this league? Not so much.

 

[Habs Icing]

Heinola to Habs at 15 confirmed.

Tea leaves.

You mean burnt hemp.

 

[LaP]

It is the most important thing for a defenceman. All breakouts start with the dman, if you can't get out of your zone, you will get scored on, and you cannot score. IMO, dmen should be renamed ''transitionmen.''

Well their first job is to defend. Can't get possession of the puck if you are unable to defend the first attack. But yeah the transition part of their game is overlooked by many people including lot of "experts".

I slightly disagree with Tippett about the checks though. Yeah lot of checks can be indicative of a player who never has the puck but it's still a very effective way to kill the opponent offense and recover possession of the puck. Ultimately you can't have possession all the time and checks are still a very effective way to recover possession.

Blocked shots i agree though. They are a very clear indication that a dman is defending most of the time and they are far less reliable than checks when it comes to recovering the puck. Often a blocked shot is creating a situation where the defense has to enter panic mode cause the puck deflected to a bad spot on the ice.

I hate own much the blocked shots stats is considered something very good. It's fine i prefer someone willing to pay the price than not but having too much of it is not a good thing. Markov blocked shots count increased a lot his last seasons. It's not because he was willing to pay the price more it's because he was not as good as he used to be back in the days and was defending more.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Who cares about Juulsen and Kulak. The best dmen in the world, the most valuable, the ones winning the norris nominations and trophies are all puck moving dmen. In the dead puck era, ''shut down'' dmen had some value because they could essentially break the rules to nullify their superior competition. In this league? Not so much.

I care about Juulsen and Kulak cause I think they are still growing and improving from where they are today. I rather have Juulsen and Kulak in the bottom 4 vs Ouellet, Alzner, Reilly, Schlemko. It was pretty clear how bad our D was in that 2 week span when Juulsen got hurt and Weber was not back yet. Price was exposed big time. When our D stabilized, our shutdown ability and GAA improved.

Having a bunch of guys that skate well but are outmatched physically in their own end or have lack of foot speed is not a recipe for success. Talk to the Leafs about that one.

Not talking about the old Shutdown D type. Talking about the new type. I like Juulsen and Kulak in the line-up and I agree with Julien and his coaching staff.

 

[LaP]

Question: Why is a shutdown D man in today's NHL compared to Alzner and not others who are also big and skate well? Like Vlasic for example?

Vlasic is a lot more than just a shutdown dman. He is a complete dman. Historically in the dead puck era (anyway where i live) a shutdown dman was one that was pretty much only good at shutting down the opponent. It worked very well in the dead puck era but it's not as effective when the league is more offensively minded. When i was young you were not going to stop the Oilers, the Pens or the Flames with guys like Gorges and Alzner. It would have been a train wreck icing those guys against prime time Gretzky/Lemieux lines.

 

[Fazkovsky]

Scouting report on Bryuvkin?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Vlasic is a lot more than just a shutdown dman. He is a complete dman. Historically in the dead puck era (anyway where i live) a shutdown dman was one that was pretty much only good at shutting down the opponent. It worked very well in the dead puck era but it's not as effective when the league is more offensively minded. When i was young you were not going to stop the Oilers, the Pens or the Flames with guys like Gorges and Alzner. It would have been a train wreck icing those guys against prime time Gretzky/Lemieux lines.

Shutdown D man can be complete D man in my books. I guess the Shutdown word is a sensitive one for some cause we signed Alzner and we also have Weber who does not have the greatest foot speed and likely has two good seasons left in him. The modern day Shutdown type to me is guys like Vlasic who have 20-25 pts potential. There are many in the league in teams top 4D that fit this category

Anyways, Lets not derail the Leskinen signing. The conversation was just about him not appearing to be a shutdown type and his strength is skating and providing offense.

From first glance, I like this signing. The kid is still young too

 

[Archijerej]

No, both qualities are not equally important. Thinking both qualities are equally important leads to giving the Karl Alzners of the world way too much money. The shutdown dman is a dying if not completely dead breed.

Both of these qualities combined in ONE player. And you're mistaken if you think Alzners' downfall was due to his inability to move the puck.

 

[sandviper]

I care about Juulsen and Kulak cause I think they are still growing and improving from where they are today. I rather have Juulsen and Kulak in the bottom 4 vs Ouellet, Alzner, Reilly, Schlemko. It was pretty clear how bad our D was in that 2 week span when Juulsen got hurt and Weber was not back yet. Price was exposed big time. When our D stabilized, our shutdown ability and GAA improved.

Having a bunch of guys that skate well but are outmatched physically in their own end or have lack of foot speed is not a recipe for success. Talk to the Leafs about that one.

Not talking about the old Shutdown D type. Talking about the new type. I like Juulsen and Kulak in the line-up and I agree with Julien and his coaching staff.

IMO, Mete would qualify as a shutdown type as well and not because he has zero goals though that’s also hard to ignore. Mete uses his mobility and stick work to cut down on scoring chances.

With the NHL getting faster, you’re going to need swift skating defencemen to keep up. While larger bodied players with skill are ideal, there’s a place for guys like Mete. I wouldn’t build a D-core around 7 players under 5’10, but it isn’t as catastrophic to have 1 or 2 smaller guys.

Sure, Mete’s size will work against the team at times, but he is very far from being the weakest link in this chain.

Back to Leskinen, the key here is to note his progression. He has shown offensive growth in each of his pro seasons, which is a positive. A year or two in the AHL should give us a good indication of how he may fit into our future plans and perhaps we can label him a “offensive puck mover” or “shut down guy”

 

[Habs Halifax]

IMO, Mete would qualify as a shutdown type as well and not because he has zero goals though that’s also hard to ignore. Mete uses his mobility and stick work to cut down on scoring chances.

With the NHL getting faster, you’re going to need swift skating defencemen to keep up. While larger bodied players with skill are ideal, there’s a place for guys like Mete. I wouldn’t build a D-core around 7 players under 5’10, but it isn’t as catastrophic to have 1 or 2 smaller guys.

Sure, Mete’s size will work against the team at times, but he is very far from being the weakest link in this chain.

I have to admit, Mete is surprising me more and more as time moves forward with his play along the boards and ability to neutralize. I think there is two approaches. Puck battles and play without the puck down low and the opposite when you have the puck and it's time to move it out of the zone with possession.

I think Juulsen is a better shutdown type vs Mete in terms of playing playing physical (hits) and blocking shots but Mete is by far the better skater and does things for us on offense that not many can.

 

[Mike Mike Caron]

Calling a defenceman a shut down type is selling them shorts. You have your Gorges and Emelin, but guys like Kulak, Mete and Juulsen are more like puck moving dmen that don't have high offensive output, they don't play as shut down types.

 

[jaffy27]

Finnish news reporting he signed with Detroit, hasn't been "officially" confirmed.

Dekuji

 

[NotProkofievian]

Well their first job is to defend. Can't get possession of the puck if you are unable to defend the first attack. But yeah the transition part of their game is overlooked by many people including lot of "experts".

I slightly disagree with Tippett about the checks though. Yeah lot of checks can be indicative of a player who never has the puck but it's still a very effective way to kill the opponent offense and recover possession of the puck. Ultimately you can't have possession all the time and checks are still a very effective way to recover possession.

Blocked shots i agree though. They are a very clear indication that a dman is defending most of the time and they are far less reliable than checks when it comes to recovering the puck. Often a blocked shot is creating a situation where the defense has to enter panic mode cause the puck deflected to a bad spot on the ice.

I hate own much the blocked shots stats is considered something very good. It's fine i prefer someone willing to pay the price than not but having too much of it is not a good thing. Markov blocked shots count increased a lot his last seasons. It's not because he was willing to pay the price more it's because he was not as good as he used to be back in the days and was defending more.

My argument would be that it's everyone's job to defend, and depending on the position of the puck, that responsibility falls on different players. If the puck is below the goal line, sure, it's the defenceman's responsibility to try to hit and pin the opposing player. But beyond that situation? Dmen have a very different role, one that has a lot more to do with transition and puck distribution than with defence.

As for checks, I would also say that the defenceman's best weapon is their stick. This is not tracked by any stat that I'm aware of, though. Hits can certainly be a useful tool but they tend to be overrated. Sure, it was good fun to watch Emelin light some fools up but I never thought we got much utility out of it.

 

[jaffy27]

Bullet top pocket