Player Discussion Griffin Reinhart: Trade for, season expectations, all in here [UPD: Recalled]

[Beerfish]

Brandon Davidson began his pro hockey career at 21 iirc, coming out of junior his biggest flaw was considered to be his skating. A 21 year old is far from a finished product, Davidson is now a rather good skater at 24. Reinhart has the wingspan to be a touch slower, like say Gryba (although i think his skating is/will be better), the big difference is the puck doesn't look like a grenade on his stick.

I'll see your Davidson and Raise you a plante and musil since we are in the mood for trotting out best case scenarios we may as well trot out worst case ones as well.

The big issue is this,

Left handed defenceman.
Not physical, does not produce offense.
Was supposed to be NHL ready this year.
Being talked about by the minor league coach as if he was a 1st year project.

Now all of that is fine if we project him to be a minimum of a very good #3 dman within a few years. Because that is the price we paid for him, minimum good #3 guy.

At this point in time, seeing that he is of no help at all this year I'd much rather have the two top 33 prospects, pick any names you like that I could dangle at the deadline or at the draft to add to a package to get an impactful player. I can guarantee you those two players are worth more than reinhart in a trade right now.

 

[belair]

I'll see your Davidson and Raise you a plante and musil since we are in the mood for trotting out best case scenarios we may as well trot out worst case ones as well.

The big issue is this,

Left handed defenceman.
Not physical, does not produce offense.
Was supposed to be NHL ready this year.
Being talked about by the minor league coach as if he was a 1st year project.

Now all of that is fine if we project him to be a minimum of a very good #3 dman within a few years. Because that is the price we paid for him, minimum good #3 guy.

At this point in time, seeing that he is of no help at all this year I'd much rather have the two top 33 prospects, pick any names you like that I could dangle at the deadline or at the draft to add to a package to get an impactful player. I can guarantee you those two players are worth more than reinhart in a trade right now.

It's funny you mention Plante and Musil because they were selected in almost the exact places that those two picks were located in last year's draft. And with the nearly the same scouting team would you honestly trust them to draft two future NHLers?

We weren't going to draft Mathew Barzal.

We weren't going to draft Anthony Beauvillier.

Griffin Reinhart was a more valuable player to Peter Chiarelli than any player available at pick 16 at the draft. So regardless of who else was available there, it's a moot point.

 

[Ogopogo*]

You know this from your 15 games?

I needed a good laugh today. It is blue Monday after all. Thanks for giving me that.

And you saw how many....? Often times scouts see far less than that - they watch YouTube to fill in the gaps.

 

[MoneyGuy]

Please no one argue with Norm Ullman. He's my all-tine favourite player.

 

[Beerfish]

It's funny you mention Plante and Musil because they were selected in almost the exact places that those two picks were located in last year's draft. And with the nearly the same scouting team would you honestly trust them to draft two future NHLers?

We weren't going to draft Mathew Barzal.

We weren't going to draft Anthony Beauvillier.

Griffin Reinhart was a more valuable player to Peter Chiarelli than any player available at pick 16 at the draft. So regardless of who else was available there, it's a moot point.

Then chairalelli is a boob then. He foolishly let the Reinhart fan boys of mact and green and alike talk him into making that deal when he admitted he had not seen a lot of reinhart. As I said pick your players, we could choose Samsonov and Aho if you like, or put chabot in there.

Just about any reasonable combo of two prospects we could be dangling for real help this off season.

So no it is not moot who was on the draft board at the time because if we don't make the deal; we either have two prospects that need lots of development or we have two solid trading chips.

 

[Zaddy]

It's funny you mention Plante and Musil because they were selected in almost the exact places that those two picks were located in last year's draft. And with the nearly the same scouting team would you honestly trust them to draft two future NHLers?

We weren't going to draft Mathew Barzal.

We weren't going to draft Anthony Beauvillier.

Griffin Reinhart was a more valuable player to Peter Chiarelli than any player available at pick 16 at the draft. So regardless of who else was available there, it's a moot point.

I really, really, really hate these arguments. So what, we are never going to make any picks then? It's absurd. As for the other thing: I mean, how ****ing hard is it? A monkey could point to the next name on a consensus list and make the pick and have success. These are supposedly paid professionals, they should be able to make a good decision. I'm painfully aware that hasn't been the case but what, are we just going to be content with that and not make any picks ever? Because that's a terrible strategy.

 

[Raab]

Saying what he was on the ice for tells us nothing about his individual play.

So many people in this thread are hopeful that he will turn into the solid D man we need and they wear the rose-colored glasses of optimism. I watched him play 15 games in the WHL and the guy never stood out nor impresses me. No big hits, no great plays, I barely noticed him on the ice. For a #4 pick, that is a bad sign. If he can't stand out in junior hockey, how is he ever going to make an impact at the NHL-level? Truth is, he almost certainly will not.

You must of missed the part where he literally took over games and shut down guys. He was a beast for the OK's.

 

[belair]

I really, really, really hate these arguments. So what, we are never going to make any picks then? It's absurd. As for the other thing: I mean, how ****ing hard is it? A monkey could point to the next name on a consensus list and make the pick and have success. These are supposedly paid professionals, they should be able to make a good decision. I'm painfully aware that hasn't been the case but what, are we just going to be content with that and not make any picks ever? Because that's a terrible strategy.

No. But it is feasible to say that a defensive prospect with two more years of development is a far more valuable asset to a team lacking in high end defensive talent than a mid 1st round pick with no development.

People like to hang on Chiarelli's claims that he was 'NHL ready' or that Bob Green hadn't seen him in Bridgeport. And while those aren't things you'd like to hear from a team struggling defensively, they're hardly damning evidence that Reinhart is teetering on bust territory.

What more can we say on this? Trade value for either Reinhart or any of those particular draft selections can be argued either way. Look how people valuate Nugent-Hopkins, Eberle or Yakupov now. Inconsistent. We were giving away Draisaitl six months ago. Now it's Nugent-Hopkins with a foot out the door. If we're talking about making those picks, tell me when teams were willing to pay up for Marco Roy, Mitch Moroz, Tyler Pitlick, David Musil, Anton Lander, Martin Marincin? Making those picks doesn't necessarily add value.

The fact of the matter is the Edmonton Oilers own the Edmonton Oil Kings. This wasn't MacT telling Chiarelli to trade for him, this was every guy in the know saying that Reinhart is going to be a player, when the rest of the draft class was scouted by several people who are no longer with the organization.

The people pigeon-holing Reinhart as a bottom-pairing defenseman have the exact same information available to them as the guys who have him pegged as a future top-4. The unfortunate part is that negativity in this thread comes from him taking a ton of heat because of what we paid for him opposed to how he's actually played, which many of us in this thread haven't seen in Bakersfield.

This kid's three years younger than Brandon Davidson. It took him that long just to get a sniff of the big team. Now people are arguing he could be a mainstay. There's plenty of time for Reinhart to reach his potential.

 

[victor]

You must of missed the part where he literally took over games and shut down guys. He was a beast for the OK's.

Yep, WHL playoff MVP, captained his team to the WHL final for two years, and a memorial cup. He was outstanding.

Looks pretty good this afternoon (AHL stream) - he's been on the ice for 3 for, 1 against. Good angles, and good footspeed.

E2 Laurikainen is playing well, but letting out rebounds. Lots of shots by San Jose.

 

[RebuildTheRebuild]

he isn't lagging behind though unless you come to his development with assumptions. By that logic Klefbom was lagging behind. Draisaitl didn't light up the AHL in his short stint there. At this point last season there were people starting to question his top end ability (same arg too about skating not going to get much better), and even Oiler fans had him drop to the bottom half of the 1st round in re-drafts.

Stop making conclusions about where players are in their development before we see the developed product.

I am comparing him to the rest of his draft class that went near his position(he went 4th so lets say top 10) and others that were drafted in similar positions as him.

Murray (2nd), Rielly (5th), Lindholm (6th), Lindholm (7th), Trouba (9th) are all for sure ahead of Reinhart as of right now. Pouliot (8th), Koekkoek (10th) and Reinhart himself are behind the curve. I think I can fairly say that the latter 3 are lagging behind the rest of the players in the top 10. Now doesn't mean that Reinhart can't be as good as them but it does cause concern because other players are passing him.

In 2011 both Dougie Hamilton (9th) and Jonas Brodin (10th) at the same point Reinhart is currently (Draft +4) were effective NHLers. Even a guy like Larsson (4th) who had some ups and downs played 64 games in that same point and never saw the AHL except for 1 game. 2010 had Eric Gubdranson (3rd) as well was in the NHL on a bottom pairing role as well. Dylan McIllrath (10th) was in the AHL and has currently played 22 NHL games to date.

These were just quick examples but it does show that he has lagged behind. Now he could end up like Hickey (4th in 07) who took a very long time to develop or he could end up lie McIllrath still trying to get that spot. I think I can fairly concluded that he has lagged behind. Its not his fault that he is. Sometimes players just take longer to develop and that is the reality. I do find myself concerned currently but I am not writing him off at all. I just see a player that has fallen behind a lot of his peers currently. We saw an amazing defender in juniors here and I hope he can reach that potential he is said to have.

 

[CupofOil]

Hoo boy, where to start....

So one poster said that Reinhart was a disaster in his time with the Oilers, another said that he has a good chance of being a complete bust, another said that he wasn't a stand out in junior and another said that Draisaitl's skating hasn't showed noticeable improvement from last year to this year. It's amazing how a few people see the game completely differently than the rest of the hockey universe does.

I wasn't and am not a fan of the Reinhart deal but he was just fine in his stint with the Oilers, I seem to recall that Gryba played his best hockey of the season when he was paired with Reinhart. He was a great junior player, clearly the anchor of the Oil Kings defense and still has time to improve his skating, he's freaking 21.

My issue with the trade is getting a prospect Dman with fairly limited upside for valuable picks that could have been better used to get more immediate help.
However, I think there's a very good chance that Reinhart becomes a valuable bottom pairing Dman for the Oilers, probably as early as next season.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I would rather have him playing 20 minutes a night on the farm then 12 to 15 as the third paying here

but like some---I do have some concern over what I am hearing from people who have claimed to have seen him play a few games

 

[victor]

I would rather have him playing 20 minutes a night on the farm then 12 to 15 as the third paying here

but like some---I do have some concern over what I am hearing from people who have claimed to have seen him play a few games

Watching him right now. He's playing with Oesterle as the first pairing, and the puck moves in the right direction when they're on the ice. He's been on the ice for 4 of the 5 Condor's goals, and one against. Getting lots of minutes, that's for sure.

 

[I am the Liquor]

And you saw how many....? Often times scouts see far less than that - they watch YouTube to fill in the gaps.

Over a hundred.

I talked with scouts in attendance on occasion. They don't scout YouTube. They know what they are talking about, at least the ones I talked to.

You are entitled to your opinion but trying to convince people that a very large number of the scouting community don't know what they are talking about probably won't further your argument.

Reinhart is down in Bakersfield because of contract status, waiver eligibility and because management feels that is what's best for his development. He is not down there because he sucks or because he isn't a good player.

 

[Samus44]

I'll see your Davidson and Raise you a plante and musil since we are in the mood for trotting out best case scenarios we may as well trot out worst case ones as well.

The big issue is this,

Left handed defenceman.
Not physical, does not produce offense.
Was supposed to be NHL ready this year.
Being talked about by the minor league coach as if he was a 1st year project.

Now all of that is fine if we project him to be a minimum of a very good #3 dman within a few years. Because that is the price we paid for him, minimum good #3 guy.

At this point in time, seeing that he is of no help at all this year I'd much rather have the two top 33 prospects, pick any names you like that I could dangle at the deadline or at the draft to add to a package to get an impactful player. I can guarantee you those two players are worth more than reinhart in a trade right now.

Moving the goalposts i see... You asked for an example and i gave you one. Plante and Musil aren't comparable, Reinhart's already outpreformed them at the AHL level in his rookie season and was a FAR better junior player. Grasping at straws. Also Musil still has a chance of panning out, he might get lost in the shuffle here but i wouldn't be surprised to see him carve out a Doug Murray like career in the NHL.

 

[guymez]

Moving the goalposts i see... You asked for an example and i gave you one. Plante and Musil aren't comparable, Reinhart's already outpreformed them at the AHL level in his rookie season and was a FAR better junior player. Grasping at straws. Also Musil still has a chance of panning out, he might get lost in the shuffle here but i wouldn't be surprised to see him carve out a Doug Murray like career in the NHL.

Simple question....if Reinhart is such a far superior prospect then why is he regressing in his 2nd year of pro hockey?

I get that development curves are not linear but Reinhart has lost ground.
How can you just dismiss that reality?

 

[joestevens29]

Simple question....if Reinhart is such a far superior prospect then why is he regressing in his 2nd year of pro hockey?

I get that development curves are not linear but Reinhart has lost ground.
How can you just dismiss that reality?

Is he regressing? I thought he was top pairing in Bakersfield and is on pace for similar offense.

Also a lot of guys regress 2nd year. You get that sophmore slump when guys have figured you out and you have to adjust.

 

[McBooya42]

Is he regressing? I thought he was top pairing in Bakersfield and is on pace for similar offense.

Also a lot of guys regress 2nd year. You get that sophmore slump when guys have figured you out and you have to adjust.

I also seem to recall some kid named Klefbom that didn't seem so hot in the AHL too...how did he turn out again?

 

[belair]

Simple question....if Reinhart is such a far superior prospect then why is he regressing in his 2nd year of pro hockey?

I get that development curves are not linear but Reinhart has lost ground.
How can you just dismiss that reality?

You say regressing like it's a known fact.

Did you see him in Bridgeport last year? Have you watched him in Bakersfield this year?

His calling card is his defense. So if you're staring at boxcars to decipher his overall game, you're likely wasting your time.

 

[guymez]

Is he regressing? I thought he was top pairing in Bakersfield and is on pace for similar offense.

Also a lot of guys regress 2nd year. You get that sophmore slump when guys have figured you out and you have to adjust.

The thing is though Reinhart was supposed to be NHL ready when they got him. He clearly isnt and by all reports he hasn't been all season.

Its gotten to the point where he has been passed by prospects that he was originally ahead of (ie...Musil).
I would say thats regressing.

Wouldn't you?

 

[guymez]

You say regressing like it's a known fact.

Did you see him in Bridgeport last year? Have you watched him in Bakersfield this year?

His calling card is his defense. So if you're staring at boxcars to decipher his overall game, you're likely wasting your time.

I am going by the available reports.

Please do post a report to the contrary. I would like to see it.

 

[joestevens29]

The thing is though Reinhart was supposed to be NHL ready when they got him. He clearly isnt and by all reports he hasn't been all season.

Its gotten to the point where he has been passed by prospects that he was originally ahead of (ie...Musil).
I would say thats regressing.

Wouldn't you?

From what I gather Musil has done quite well for himself and was always going to be that close to 5 year project, so I don't know that it's regressing as much as it's Musil finally coming into his own.

 

[McOilbleeder]

With Chia saying he expects Reinhart up soon on Oilers now, I wonder if a trade is coming down the pipe.

I suspect we'll find out soon enough.

 

[guymez]

From what I gather Musil has done quite well for himself and was always going to be that close to 5 year project, so I don't know that it's regressing as much as it's Musil finally coming into his own.

So...what about Osterle?

According to Scott Zerr....

In at least half of Reinhart’s games with the Condors, he’s been only their third-best blue liner behind a variety pack of David Musil, Nikita Nikitin and Jordan Oesterle. That’s not good enough.

Considering Reinhart was supposed to be NHL ready back in October this very much looks like regressing to me.

 

[Beerfish]

Moving the goalposts i see... You asked for an example and i gave you one. Plante and Musil aren't comparable, Reinhart's already outpreformed them at the AHL level in his rookie season and was a FAR better junior player. Grasping at straws. Also Musil still has a chance of panning out, he might get lost in the shuffle here but i wouldn't be surprised to see him carve out a Doug Murray like career in the NHL.

Well you died on your hill when you came out with the 'Musil still might turn out.' What do you mean about the plante and musil have already been out performed? plante was an ahl all star.

I also see you didn't address any of my move the goal posts points.

Left handed Dman
Doesn't provide offense
Isn't physical.
Skating is a question.

Hey he will be an NHL player for this team at some point, no doubt in my mind about that. Unless he is a sure fire long term good #3 guy the price we paid was way too steep.