Gretzky isn't the greatest goal scorer?

[Fourier]

This is a great post, even though I am not sure if I would describe Gretzky playing high a defensive tactic. Offense was the best defense of that Oilers dynasty of course, so in that sense - true. This take does however diminish Kurri as a defensive part of the whole and Coffey as an offensive one. Neither were Gretzky but exceptional players in there own right nonetheless.

In Gretzky's case, everything was a tactic. When it became fashionable to put a shadow on Gretzky his solution was in his own end to simply skate over and stand by one of the defensemen. This effectively took two opposition players out of the play giving the Oilers a man advantage in their own end. Once the Oilers got possession he would break taking his shadow and the defenseman with him making the zone exit that much easier. In fact, even without the shadow, Gretzky would play games wth the defensemen putting constant pressure on them to watch him in the Oilers zone rather than thinking about the play. It was beautiful to watch.

I am not sure how many times you saw Gretzky live, but to really appreciate his game you had to watch him away from the puck. Some games that's pretty much all I would do when he was on the ice. The guy was an absolute genius when it came to breaking down what was happening on the ice. No player in my life time had so many defensive schemes designed to manage him, but Gretzky eventually beat them all.

That said Kurri was a fantastic player in his own right. Really the perfect complement for Gretzky. Coffey in my mind was the bexst offensive defenseman I have ever seen live. An unbelievable skater. Beautiful to watch. I never saw Orr live but he is the only defenseman in my life time to match Coffey offensively.

 

[Murky]

In Gretzky's case, everything was a tactic. When it became fashionable to put a shadow on Gretzky his solution was in his own end to simply skate over and stand by one of the defensemen. This effectively took two opposition players out of the play giving the Oilers a man advantage in their own end. Once the Oilers got possession he would break taking his shadow and the defenseman with him making the zone exit that much easier. In fact, even without the shadow, Gretzky would play games wth the defensemen putting constant pressure on them to watch him in the Oilers zone rather than thinking about the play. It was beautiful to watch.

I am not sure how many times you saw Gretzky live, but to really appreciate his game you had to watch him away from the puck. Some games that's pretty much all I would do when he was on the ice. The guy was an absolute genius when it came to breaking down what was happening on the ice. No player in my life time had so many defensive schemes designed to manage him, but Gretzky eventually beat them all.

That said Kurri was a fantastic player in his own right. Really the perfect complement for Gretzky. Coffey in my mind was the bexst offensive defenseman I have ever seen live. An unbelievable skater. Beautiful to watch. I never saw Orr live but he is the only defenseman in my life time to match Coffey offensively.

Indeed. I lived in Calgary in the 80's and I had the pleasure of seeing Oilers live many times. I think especially Kurri's excellent positioning does not translate into television at all. I completely agree; you had to see them live to appreciate them. Great times.

 

[Mats26]

For his era, he lead the league in goals twice.

I guess Dany Gare and Blaine Stoughton are high on your list. Bossy has a 0.76 GPG average higher than the great one at 0.60. Although Gretzky is my pick for greatest of all time let's not pretend that Bossy wasn't a prolific goal scorer. 9 straight 50 Goal seasons will never be matched.

 

[Fantomas]

I guess Dany Gare and Blaine Stoughton are high on your list. Bossy has a 0.76 GPG average higher than the great one at 0.60. Although Gretzky is my pick for greatest of all time let's not pretend that Bossy wasn't a prolific goal scorer. 9 straight 50 Goal seasons will never be matched.

?

What do these guys have to do with anything? They've never lead the league in scoring.

Ovechkin is arguably the best because he's led the league in goals nine (9) (!) times. That's right, nine times.

Bossy led the league only twice and his numbers are inflated by playing in a high scoring era. He's good, but not among the best in goal scoring.

Meanwhile Gordie Howe is severely underrated in this conversations and he led the league in goals 5 (!) times. That's 3 more than Bossy and the man scored more than 1000 career goals while playing - for much of his career - in a low-scoring league with shorter seasons.

Forget Bossy. Not a factor.

 

[Mats26]

?

What do these guys have to do with anything? They've never lead the league in scoring.

Ovechkin is arguably the best because he's led the league in goals nine (9) (!) times. That's right, nine times.

Bossy led the league only twice and his numbers are inflated by playing in a high scoring era. He's good, but not among the best in goal scoring.

Meanwhile Gordie Howe is severely underrated in this conversations and he led the league in goals 5 (!) times. That's 3 more than Bossy and the man scored more than 1000 career goals while playing - for much of his career - in a low-scoring league with shorter seasons.

Forget Bossy. Not a factor.

Seem like whoever lead the league in goals is the clear winner for you. Add Espositio to your list at least.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I shouldn't need to remind people of this every seventh post or so, but be nice and cut the snark back by about 50%.

 

[Fantomas]

Seem like whoever lead the league in goals is the clear winner for you. Add Espositio to your list at least.

Greatest goal scorers are those who dominate their era. And who says Espo isn't on my list?

 

[golfortennis]

In Gretzky's case, everything was a tactic. When it became fashionable to put a shadow on Gretzky his solution was in his own end to simply skate over and stand by one of the defensemen. This effectively took two opposition players out of the play giving the Oilers a man advantage in their own end. Once the Oilers got possession he would break taking his shadow and the defenseman with him making the zone exit that much easier. In fact, even without the shadow, Gretzky would play games wth the defensemen putting constant pressure on them to watch him in the Oilers zone rather than thinking about the play. It was beautiful to watch.

I am not sure how many times you saw Gretzky live, but to really appreciate his game you had to watch him away from the puck. Some games that's pretty much all I would do when he was on the ice. The guy was an absolute genius when it came to breaking down what was happening on the ice. No player in my life time had so many defensive schemes designed to manage him, but Gretzky eventually beat them all.

That said Kurri was a fantastic player in his own right. Really the perfect complement for Gretzky. Coffey in my mind was the bexst offensive defenseman I have ever seen live. An unbelievable skater. Beautiful to watch. I never saw Orr live but he is the only defenseman in my life time to match Coffey offensively.

Something Kurri also brought(apologies if it has been mentioned already) was that he actually took the defensive responsibilities that belong to the center. Getting involved in the muck deep in your own zone, etc. This left Gretzky out in the upper part of the zone ready to breakout(and likely is the source of the "cherry-picking" argument some tried to make against him. But why wouldn't you do this? I mean Kurri was a great offensive player, but, this is Gretzky we are talking about. I was always annoyed that the Penguins never did this with Crosby. Why wouldn't you want a generational talent ready to break out rather than below your own goal line?

 

[Halla]

92 goals.

thats all

 

[lebdafor norris]

92 goals.

thats all

I raise you 50 in 07. Its ok, no one will think less of you if you forfeit this argument.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I raise you 50 in 07. Its ok, no one will think less of you if you forfeit this argument.

50 in 39

 

[rfournier103]

50 in 39

Nobody will EVER touch that.

Ever.

 

[shoodapuk]

first 10 years didnt count the minus diff between bossy and gretz due to both players missing significant games


gret had 51 goals bossy had 53 +2 bossy had 2 more goals than wayne
gret had 55 goals bossy had 69 +14 in favor of bossy
gret had 92 goals bossy had 51 -42 in favor of wayne
gret had 71 goals bossy had 68 -3 in favor of wayne
gret had 87 goals bossy had 64 -23 in favor of wayne
73 60 -13
52 51 -1
62 58 -4
40 64gp 61
54 38 63 games played

only listed 6 years for Mario for obvious reasons
on a side not gretz 87 goals in 74 games is the highest gpg avg higher than the 92 goal season would have been 94 goals had u avg over 80 games

Mario had 85 goals in 76 games

stats show that some what close Wayne Gretzky in his Prime when he wanted to cause his Numbers clearly show later in his career that he didnt care about goal scoring as much that hes the greatest goal scorer in nhl history

Can't say I agree or disagree: only know this: only player I've ever paid scalpers prices to watch, was Gretz.

 

[authentic]

50 in 39

He had a stretch during the 1983-84 season with 50 goals in 34 games, it just wasn't from the start of the season.

 

[CTZ181]

I know it was the 80s and goalies were bad and had half-sized equipment but it's hard to argue against near 100 goal campaigns.

 

[abo9]

Seem like whoever lead the league in goals is the clear winner for you. Add Espositio to your list at least.

There is no perfect way to compare players across era but to completely dismiss one method seems short-sighted.

I assume you would rather use goal totals? To me (and others), those don't make sense when we compare different eras. An extreme example of that would be if a player scored 2000 goals in his career, but ultimately never broke into the top 10 in goalscoring in a single season. Would you not rather have the player who scored 1000 career goals, but led the league every year of his career?

I would love for Ovechkin to beat Gretky's absolute numbers of goals, it would be real hard to dismiss him as the best goal scorer of all time. But each shortened season make it more improbable - we'll see in a couple years.

What convinces me is that, as dominant as Gretzky was (goalscoring-wise), Ovechkin is even more dominant vs his peers. Not only did he win the goalscoring race almost twice as often, he scored 52% more goals than his closest opponent (Crosby, for the period of 2005-2021) vs 26% more goals for Gretzky over Mike Gartner (1979-1999). I chose the start/end of their careers (For Gretz, to day for Ovy) to represent their respective periods, but I understand that it's pretty subjective.

 

[Halla]

false. when another dude beats 92 goals they can grab the title

 

[shaner82]

What convinces me is that, as dominant as Gretzky was (goalscoring-wise), Ovechkin is even more dominant vs his peers. Not only did he win the goalscoring race almost twice as often, he scored 52% more goals than his closest opponent (Crosby, for the period of 2005-2021) vs 26% more goals for Gretzky over Mike Gartner (1979-1999). I chose the start/end of their careers (For Gretz, to day for Ovy) to represent their respective periods, but I understand that it's pretty subjective.

That's a good way of comparing players of different eras. Unfortunately, every formula has a flaw. For example, perhaps there just wasn't a generational goalscorer when Ovi was in his peak. Crosby is an amazing player, but I wouldn't say goal scoring is his strength.

Lets say McDavid, Matthews and Drai were all drafted at the same time, would Ovi be that far ahead of the second place guy?

My point is only that it's next to impossible to accurately compare players of different eras. Basically, you have to watch them play and compare stats. When I watched Wayne and Mario, they dominated games. When they wanted to score, they did. They were literally unstoppable. I've never felt that about Ovi when I watch him play. I don't feel like he takes over games, as much as he plays the game in a certain way that allows him to get open, and he's fortunate to have a ridiculous shot.

 

[Albatros]

false. when another dude beats 92 goals they can grab the title

The greatest goal scorer in history before Gretzky was... Phil Esposito?

 

[filinski77]

That's a good way of comparing players of different eras. Unfortunately, every formula has a flaw. For example, perhaps there just wasn't a generational goalscorer when Ovi was in his peak. Crosby is an amazing player, but I wouldn't say goal scoring is his strength.

Lets say McDavid, Matthews and Drai were all drafted at the same time, would Ovi be that far ahead of the second place guy?

My point is only that it's next to impossible to accurately compare players of different eras. Basically, you have to watch them play and compare stats. When I watched Wayne and Mario, they dominated games. When they wanted to score, they did. They were literally unstoppable. I've never felt that about Ovi when I watch him play. I don't feel like he takes over games, as much as he plays the game in a certain way that allows him to get open, and he's fortunate to have a ridiculous shot.

Definitely a great point. I think Ovechkin passes that test when you look at how at ages 32/33/34 he still won the Rocket against all these guys who are 20-24 and at the top of their games.

From 2017/2018 to 2019/2020 Ovechkin aged 32-34 had 22% more goals than #2 (albeit only like 8% ahead of Matthews in g/gp over that span). I think 22-24 year old Ovechkin would have absolutely have torn up the game today goalscoring-wise. His shot was just as good, but back then his skating and hands were similar to Mackinnon now, but even better.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Nobody will EVER touch that.

Ever.

Because there's actually defense and sound goaltending in modern hockey.

 

[golfortennis]

Because there's actually defense and sound goaltending in modern hockey.

Well, to be specific,

• there are goalie pads that don't get weighed down with sweat and water over the course of a game that allow goalies to move quickly late in a game,
• the pads are also constructed in a manner to allow the butterfly to be a main tactic,
• players are wearing shin guards and other equipment that is akin to armor and allows coaches to force them to block shots from Day 1 of the season or they don't get on the ice
• players "finish their checks"(code name for interference) and try to drill guys a lot harder now because of the same armor, which takes guys out of plays.

Players have certainly gotten much better at picking pucks out of the air with their stick blade, sure, but don't kid yourself that equipment hasn't had a lot to do with that.

Personally I don't think those things have been for the better, but others may disagree and so be it. But foam shin guards will see guys not blocking shots in a game in Nov. Playoffs, sure. But mundane regular season games, not so much.

To bring it back to Gretzky, he is, of course, the all time leader in short handed goals with 73. Crosby has 10 SH points total in his career. Yes, it's a different scoring era, but it's also the fact Crosby never plays SH overall, and a lot of that has to do with the shot blocking. You don't put Crosby(or McDavid or whomever) out there with the expectation of shot-blocking. Do these guys get out there more on SH situations if there isn't the shot blocking expectation?

 

[abo9]

That's a good way of comparing players of different eras. Unfortunately, every formula has a flaw. For example, perhaps there just wasn't a generational goalscorer when Ovi was in his peak. Crosby is an amazing player, but I wouldn't say goal scoring is his strength.

Lets say McDavid, Matthews and Drai were all drafted at the same time, would Ovi be that far ahead of the second place guy?

My point is only that it's next to impossible to accurately compare players of different eras. Basically, you have to watch them play and compare stats. When I watched Wayne and Mario, they dominated games. When they wanted to score, they did. They were literally unstoppable. I've never felt that about Ovi when I watch him play. I don't feel like he takes over games, as much as he plays the game in a certain way that allows him to get open, and he's fortunate to have a ridiculous shot.

I'll preface this by admitting that no perfect formula exists to compare across eras. But I find your example a little funny, since Crosby scored more goals than McDavid and Draisatl at the same point in their careers (gp wise AND year wise). Matthews is the only one who has an arguable edge, but his goal totals still pale in comparison to Ovy's at the same age. And even better than that, Ovechkin has more goals than any of them since they entered the league - he was already 30, an age where goalscorers usually decline rapidly.

All that to say, I think that these guys already have a tall order to keep up with Crosby goalscoring-wise, I think it just shows how bad Ovechkin dominated goalscoring in his era. no knock to Gretzky - I'll be in awe if someone even replicates a 70 goals season, not even imagining what a beast a player would be to score 92 goals in one year.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Someone that holds the record the most goals in the NHL All Time, got a record that will never be broken 50 in 39, and also holding the record for the most goals scored in a single season at 92.
How can Gretzky NOT be the greatest goal scorer?

 

[middletoe]

Someone that holds the record the most goals in the NHL All Time, got a record that will never be broken 50 in 39, and also holding the record for the most goals scored in a single season at 92.
How can Gretzky NOT be the greatest goal scorer?

His goals to assists ratio was terrible for a goal scorer. Kidding. Ya I wouldn’t put anyone above him.