Gretzky isn't the greatest goal scorer?

[BraveCanadian]

If "birth rates don't matter" is what you took from my post, then I think you read it wrong. I specifically used birth rates as a foundation for my rationale.

The foundation for handwaving away the fact that just because a population is larger doesn't mean there are hockey players there?

 

[DANOZ28]

lemieux ; hull ; ovi are all shooters , basically one trick ponies whereas gretzky was the very complete player. he knew where everyone was on the ice at all times. gretzky was a TEAM player . hands down gretzky was the best. nuff said.

 

[Albatros]

gretzky was the very complete player.

Even his own linemate Kurri was more complete as a hockey player.

 

[Murky]

Even his own linemate Kurri was more complete as a hockey player.

Kurri was awesome and he is really criminally underrated because he played with Gretzky and his peak was cut short with knee and shoulder injuries - after a couple of half decent seasons in LA he was just a shadow for the five last seasons in the NHL. Many far inferior players like Selanne etc. get picked ahead of him in HF polls for example. Sure Kurri was very good defensively and apart from fighting he was very well rounded player. From top of my head he was 6 times in top ten for scoring and Selke in a same year. Those days Selke had not yet turned into Hart light.

But, while Kurri was great the gap in offensive talent to Gretzky was so large that it is completely unfair to Gretzky to even mention Kurri in this discussion. Or anyone else for that matter apart from Lemieux. Offensively Gretzky had everything except reach, which he didn't need because he was already there waiting for the puck anyway. Even his shot was elite. It was not the hardest shot in the World and not in the level of Kurri or others like him, but it was very accurate and he had great release. I don't think it is wrong to say that Gretzky was a complete player offensively.

D we will never know. Gretzky never played much defense as that would have been a total waste and he had Kurri for that. Most likely his otherworldly vision of the game and great hands etc. would have made him at the very least very good at D, too. But that is besides the point in a discussion about Gretzky's goal scoring.

 

[Fourier]

Even his own linemate Kurri was more complete as a hockey player.

I watched these two play live close to 500 times. In my opinion, this is simply not true.

 

[Doctor No]

I watched these two play live close to 500 hundered times. In my opinion, this is simply not true.

(Just having fun with you as a fellow math guy, although I'd pay a lot of money to watch Gretzky and Kurri play 50,000 times right now - and I do agree with your thesis. )

 

[Fourier]

(Just having fun with you as a fellow math guy, although I'd pay a lot of money to watch Gretzky and Kurri play 50,000 times right now - and I do agree with your thesis. )

Touche!!!

 

[Fourier]

Kurri was awesome and he is really criminally underrated because he played with Gretzky and his peak was cut short with knee and shoulder injuries - after a couple of half decent seasons in LA he was just a shadow for the five last seasons in the NHL. Many far inferior players like Selanne etc. get picked ahead of him in HF polls for example. Sure Kurri was very good defensively and apart from fighting he was very well rounded player. From top of my head he was 6 times in top ten for scoring and Selke in a same year. Those days Selke had not yet turned into Hart light.

But, while Kurri was great the gap in offensive talent to Gretzky was so large that it is completely unfair to Gretzky to even mention Kurri in this discussion. Or anyone else for that matter apart from Lemieux. Offensively Gretzky had everything except reach, which he didn't need because he was already there waiting for the puck anyway. Even his shot was elite. It was not the hardest shot in the World and not in the level of Kurri or others like him, but it was very accurate and he had great release. I don't think it is wrong to say that Gretzky was a complete player offensively.

D we will never know. Gretzky never played much defense as that would have been a total waste and he had Kurri for that. Most likely his otherworldly vision of the game and great hands etc. would have made him at the very least very good at D, too. But that is besides the point in a discussion about Gretzky's goal scoring.

Greztky's defensive game is extremely underated because it was unconventional. He was a great backchecker (and forechecker by the way) with as much ability to strip pucks as any player I have ever seen. He typically played high in his own zone but his anticipation and eye-and skills allowed him to intercept passes, see adnger developing and act, or get to loose pucks as well as anyone who played at that time. He was a fantastic penalty killer because of these skills. Moreover, once he got the puck it was going the other way immediately. If you had a defenseman today who could get the puck going up ice as quickly and as effeiciently as Gretzky most would view that as an extremely valuable defensive asset. Gretzky did this as a forward. Moreover, even the fact that he played so high was a defensive tactic. Gretzky's presence put immense pressure on the defensemen so at the first hint that the Oiler might gain possession they often had to leave tehzone or risk being a victum of a Gretzky led two-on-one which was not something most wanted to be a part of.

As far as goal scoring is concerned that is a one area where raw stats tell most of the story. Its hard to argue that goals scored is not a huge factor in measuring a players prowess as a goal scorer. The other thing that is often over looked is that Gretzky scored 680 goals at ES or SH.

 

[edog37]

lemieux ; hull ; ovi are all shooters , basically one trick ponies whereas gretzky was the very complete player. he knew where everyone was on the ice at all times. gretzky was a TEAM player . hands down gretzky was the best. nuff said.

Lemieux was far from a one trick pony. He had over 1,000 assists compared to 690 goals. This comment shows you never watched Lemieux play. I do agree about Hull & Ovechkin.

 

[Mats26]

There is a difference between goal scorers and snipers.

Best snipers are Hull, Ovi
Best goal scorers are Lemieux, Gretzky and Bossy

 

[Albatros]

There is a difference between goal scorers and snipers.

Best snipers are Hull, Ovi
Best goal scorers are Lemieux, Gretzky and Bossy

 

[pi314]

Lemieux was far from a one trick pony. He had over 1,000 assists compared to 690 goals. This comment shows you never watched Lemieux play. I do agree about Hull & Ovechkin.

Was about to say the same thing.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Lemieux was far from a one trick pony. He had over 1,000 assists compared to 690 goals. This comment shows you never watched Lemieux play. I do agree about Hull & Ovechkin.

If someone had never watched Lemieux play, wouldn't they be *more* likely to argue in support of the high assist totals (and not less likely), and therefore be less likely to call him a "one trick pony"?

 

[MadLuke]

lemieux ; hull ; ovi are all shooters , basically one trick ponies whereas gretzky was the very complete player. he knew where everyone was on the ice at all times. gretzky was a TEAM player . hands down gretzky was the best. nuff said.

.	Wayne Gretzky*	1979-99	1.320
2.	Mario Lemieux*	1984-06	1.129
3.	Bobby Orr*	1966-79	0.982
4.	Peter Forsberg*	1994-11	0.898
5.	Connor McDavid	2015-21	0.875
6.	Sidney Crosby	2005-21	0.812
7.	Peter Stastny*	1980-95	0.808
8.	Adam Oates*	1985-04	0.807
9.	Paul Coffey*	1980-01	0.806
10.	Marcel Dionne*	1971-89	0.772

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Mario Lemieux is in the conversation for the second best playmaker of all time after Gretzky (with Orr and some others) and would not be surprised if he would be the consensus #2 and even #1 on the Power play and when argued in how many ways a player could score, Lemieux would be in the conversation to be in elite in the most different ways.

Describing Mario Lemieux has a one trick sniper/shooter like older Ovechkin can be (young Ovechkin was certainly not, he scored goal and many ways)

 

[MadLuke]

If someone had never watched Lemieux play, wouldn't they be *more* likely to argue in support of the high assist totals (and not less likely), and therefore be less likely to call him a "one trick pony"?

This, never having the chance to watch him play do not feel like a valid excuse or enough to hold this view from the player that had 114 assist in one season, 92 in only 70 games in 95-96, 91 in only 60 games in 92-93. It is a complete disregard for looking even just a little bit before saying something.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

To be honest, the best case for thinking Lemieux is a "one trick pony" would be if you were a "I watch the games and my eyes know best" guy but suffered from highlight bias, since most of the Lemieux highlights these days are of his incredible goals (first thing I think of when I think of "Lemieux" is the play where he split two North Stars defenders in the 1991 Finals).

I don't think Lemieux assists are commonly shown in highlights today (although there were plenty of great ones - pun intended).

 

[golfortennis]

To be honest, the best case for thinking Lemieux is a "one trick pony" would be if you were a "I watch the games and my eyes know best" guy but suffered from highlight bias, since most of the Lemieux highlights these days are of his incredible goals (first thing I think of when I think of "Lemieux" is the play where he split two North Stars defenders in the 1991 Finals).

I don't think Lemieux assists are commonly shown in highlights today (although there were plenty of great ones - pun intended).

You could argue his greatest "assist" was in the Olympics when he let the puck go to Kariya instead of playing it like every mere mortal would.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

lol this started in 2017. no clue what the OP is going on about. how is Gretzky not the best goal scorer of all time? hes ranked 1st is he not?
I dont agree with taking away the first 10 year. they happened and cant be ignored just to justify how someone else can be better.
now OV might break Gretzky's record and become the new greatest goal scorer or all time. till then Gretzky is going to always be number 1. no matter who comes along until his numbers are beat he will always be 1st.

 

[Cleatus]

lol this started in 2017. no clue what the OP is going on about. how is Gretzky not the best goal scorer of all time? hes ranked 1st is he not?
I dont agree with taking away the first 10 year. they happened and cant be ignored just to justify how someone else can be better.
now OV might break Gretzky's record and become the new greatest goal scorer or all time. till then Gretzky is going to always be number 1. no matter who comes along until his numbers are beat he will always be 1st.

I don't think he has to break the goal record to be #1. When you consider OV's longevity (Gretzky wasn't scoring close to this in his 30's), the difference in eras, and games missed due to lockouts/COVID, it's pretty clear that OV is the best goal-scorer the NHL has ever seen, regardless of if he gets higher than 894 or not.

Gretzky is clearly #2 though, and the best player of all time, no questions.

 

[Fantomas]

There is a difference between goal scorers and snipers.

Best snipers are Hull, Ovi
Best goal scorers are Lemieux, Gretzky and Bossy

Bossy led the NHL in scoring a whopping 2 times.

 

[Stephen]

Are we interrogating the notion of Gretzky being the greatest goal scorer by volume, or are we downplaying the aesthetic quality and explosive physicality of his goal scoring?

 

[Mats26]

Bossy led the NHL in scoring a whopping 2 times.

9 straight seasons with 50+ goals. For his era he was money. Still remember that famous game when he scored 2 goals in the 3rd period to tie the Rocket with his 50 in 50 record...

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I don't think he has to break the goal record to be #1. When you consider OV's longevity (Gretzky wasn't scoring close to this in his 30's), the difference in eras, and games missed due to lockouts/COVID, it's pretty clear that OV is the best goal-scorer the NHL has ever seen, regardless of if he gets higher than 894 or not.

Gretzky is clearly #2 though, and the best player of all time, no questions.

I hear what you are saying and it makes sense but Im going to ignore that and just say until he beats it. he wont be the clear number 1 without excuses. I think he will beat it anyways

 

[Fantomas]

9 straight seasons with 50+ goals. For his era he was money.

For his era, he lead the league in goals twice.

 

[Murky]

Greztky's defensive game is extremely underated because it was unconventional. He was a great backchecker (and forechecker by the way) with as much ability to strip pucks as any player I have ever seen. He typically played high in his own zone but his anticipation and eye-and skills allowed him to intercept passes, see adnger developing and act, or get to loose pucks as well as anyone who played at that time. He was a fantastic penalty killer because of these skills. Moreover, once he got the puck it was going the other way immediately. If you had a defenseman today who could get the puck going up ice as quickly and as effeiciently as Gretzky most would view that as an extremely valuable defensive asset. Gretzky did this as a forward. Moreover, even the fact that he played so high was a defensive tactic. Gretzky's presence put immense pressure on the defensemen so at the first hint that the Oiler might gain possession they often had to leave tehzone or risk being a victum of a Gretzky led two-on-one which was not something most wanted to be a part of.

As far as goal scoring is concerned that is a one area where raw stats tell most of the story. Its hard to argue that goals scored is not a huge factor in measuring a players prowess as a goal scorer. The other thing that is often over looked is that Gretzky scored 7680 goals at ES or SH.

This is a great post, even though I am not sure if I would describe Gretzky playing high a defensive tactic. Offense was the best defense of that Oilers dynasty of course, so in that sense - true. This take does however diminish Kurri as a defensive part of the whole and Coffey as an offensive one. Neither were Gretzky but exceptional players in there own right nonetheless.