Prospect Info: Grand Rapids Griffins 2015-16, Part II

[TCNorthstars]

How many of them are big RHD with a "ghost" reputation of being an offensive weapon?

Teams may be willing to take the chance just for the potential.

If he can't make the Wings with this defense, you think someone else will be putting him on their NHL roster? Especially at the beginning of the year when he would be sent down and teams are healthy?

 

[Reddwit]

If he can't make the Wings with this defense, you think someone else will be putting him on their NHL roster? Especially at the beginning of the year when he would be sent down and teams are healthy?

The wings don't have the worst 7 defenseman in the NHL. There are several teams who have better talents in their top but rotate junk in their bottom pairing. There are a few teams who have a worse defense overall. That thinking also ignores that not everyone's goal is to ice talent at the expense of development opportunities. A lot of rebuilding teams ice prospects in their bottom pairing who are rough around the edges to save money and to scout them professionally. Many of those guys can also be sent down waiver free in order to get a free look at a potential talent like Sproul for a month.

 

[Run the Jewels]

If he can't make the Wings with this defense, you think someone else will be putting him on their NHL roster? Especially at the beginning of the year when he would be sent down and teams are healthy?

Jim Nill and Kyle Dubas are quite familiar with him and may be interested in a trade. Nill has already acquired a few of our prospects. Janmark put up 15 goals in Dallas and Backman had a nice season in the AHL. Sproul will basically end up being Kindl 2.0 if he stays in Detroit, where we have a pretty awful track record of developing defensemen. Seriously, when Jonathan Ericsson is your best home grown d-man since Nik Kronwall that pretty much sums it up.

Maybe Houda will make a difference but Sproul's in a place right now where it's tough to see him develop in Detroit or clear waivers. If you feel confident he can pass through waivers and if you feel confident Nelson will be back in Grand Rapids then sure, you can take a chance on continuing his development.

I just don't see that happening. And I don't want this to be yet another case of us losing a guy for nothing because Ken Holland is petrified of making tough decisions.

 

[Frk It]

I've been a big Sproul fan since he was drafted. I don't think he has any future in Detroit. This year under Nelson showed he can be effective, the thing is he may not clear waivers and if you carry him with the big club he likely flounders once again with Blashill as his coach.

I'd like to see us trade him. Maybe send him to Dallas as Nill probably knows him better than anyone other than the assistant GM in Toronto, who was the GM when Sproul was in the OHL. Those may be your two best options to get something of value. Not much, obviously. Just make a hockey trade and move on.

So if it was up to me I'd move him and get whatever you can. He's got skill and it would be too bad to see his career go down the drain in Detroit.

Sproul has progressed a ton since Blashill coached him. So even if he may have disliked his game before, doesn't mean he necessarily will now.

Sproul seems like a much better fit for the system Blashill is hoping to employ than several of our regular defenseman last year. Also is a great option for our PP that struggled mightily.

So I wouldn't write off Sproul in Detroit, just yet. He is an option they definitely need to explore and give an opportunity to (IMO) before they just ship him out, and give up on him with 1 NHL game to his name.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Sproul seems like a much better fit for the system Blashill is hoping to employ than several of our regular defenseman last year.

I don't know how it is going to work out but I am going to pay attention to how Blashill's system fits with Houda's. Houda obviously worked under Julien and that's not exactly the style of hockey that I think we all expect from Blashill. So how exactly does that relationship work out and will the players be on the same page?

See, if you got someone like Phil Housley - just as an example - then I think that's an interesting dynamic. With Houda I simply don't know if we will be able to utilize our one sorta strength on defense - having a guy like Brendan Smith or Mike Green jump up into offensive zone and become an additional forward. If we try to run Blashill's preferred style with a guy who basically only knows Claude Julien's system is that going to work?

I have no problem with the hire, my only question is how it will work out. It could be just fine; it could be a case where Holland is surrounding Blashill with guys with lots of experience who are going to be allowed to do their own thing - that's why you hired them, right?

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I don't know how it is going to work out but I am going to pay attention to how Blashill's system fits with Houda's. Houda obviously worked under Julien and that's not exactly the style of hockey that I think we all expect from Blashill. So how exactly does that relationship work out and will the players be on the same page?

See, if you got someone like Phil Housley - just as an example - then I think that's an interesting dynamic. With Houda I simply don't know if we will be able to utilize our one sorta strength on defense - having a guy like Brendan Smith or Mike Green jump up into offensive zone and become an additional forward. If we try to run Blashill's preferred style with a guy who basically only knows Claude Julien's system is that going to work?

I have no problem with the hire, my only question is how it will work out. It could be just fine; it could be a case where Holland is surrounding Blashill with guys with lots of experience who are going to be allowed to do their own thing - that's why you hired them, right?

You are thinking too hard about this and overrating coaching and systems. If you can only play in one system, you aren't a good hockey player and you will never stick as an NHL regular. There are really only so many ways to skin the hockey cat. A system might cause a guy to play 5% better, but it isn't going to turn Bob Rouse into Paul Coffey. Furthermore, the issues that Sproul had last season would have doomed him under Nelson too. I am a firm believer that Sproul is playing better because Sproul took it upon himself to get better after realizing he needed to make changes to his game. I think the coaching staff in GR (primarily the assistants) helped him effectuate those changes, but those changes don't get made without Sproul's self awareness and work.

 

[Run the Jewels]

You are thinking too hard about this and overrating coaching and systems. If you can only play in one system, you aren't a good hockey player and you will never stick as an NHL regular. There are really only so many ways to skin the hockey cat. A system might cause a guy to play 5% better, but it isn't going to turn Bob Rouse into Paul Coffey. Furthermore, the issues that Sproul had last season would have doomed him under Nelson too. I am a firm believer that Sproul is playing better because Sproul took it upon himself to get better after realizing he needed to make changes to his game. I think the coaching staff in GR (primarily the assistants) helped him effectuate those changes, but those changes don't get made without Sproul's self awareness and work.

I think you are understating Nelson's effectiveness as a coach. He has a track record from his days in the Edmonton orgnization for being good at developing young players. You also conveniently leave out the impressive season Russo had. Nelson seems to be a good coach and I think the odds are good he at least gets an interview for a head coaching gig.

Finally, there were clearly signs Blashill altered his approach as the team floundered early on last season. Everyone suggested the players needed time to learn his system, however as the season went on it was pretty clear they were moving away from Blashill's system after the advanced stats showed we were one of the worst teams in the league. If not for adjusting to a more defensive approach - along with no longer playing Kindl and Smith for huge minutes - the team was able to limp it's way into the playoffs on the back of Petr Mrazek's dominant start to the season.

So like I said above, I am not being critical of the Houda hire. I am however very skpetical of Blashill's preferred system being able to purportedly turn proverbial straw into gold. Add in the fact Holland felt it necessary to get a guy to coach the defense who has tons of experience under Claude Julien and I am of the opinion that it is reasonable to question whether the Blashill style is something we can expect to ever materialize.

Cam Neely called Julien's style an attempt to "win 0-0 games". If we know our GM's only stated goal at this point is to make the playoffs and if your prospect pool is almost entirely comprised of moderate skiill guys who are known for their two way games well it's safe to wonder which system is more likely to achieve your GM's stated goal?

This is getting a big off topic so let me bring it back: Sproul is not a fit for this organization. There are at least two guys in a position to trade for him who are quite familiar with his strengths and weaknesses. My only real stated opinion on the matter is to trade him now rather than risk losing him for nothing or have him basically eat up a roster spot in Detroit while never really being able to fit in with the organization.

 

[SlavaKozlov]

You are thinking too hard about this and overrating coaching and systems. If you can only play in one system, you aren't a good hockey player and you will never stick as an NHL regular. There are really only so many ways to skin the hockey cat. A system might cause a guy to play 5% better, but it isn't going to turn Bob Rouse into Paul Coffey. Furthermore, the issues that Sproul had last season would have doomed him under Nelson too. I am a firm believer that Sproul is playing better because Sproul took it upon himself to get better after realizing he needed to make changes to his game. I think the coaching staff in GR (primarily the assistants) helped him effectuate those changes, but those changes don't get made without Sproul's self awareness and work.

I remember Trotz was asked about how his defensive type of coaching would work in Washington, when they have an elite sniper and the right pieces to play a more open offensive game. Trotz pointed out that when he had Kariya in Nashville and some other good offensive players, they were one of the highest scoring teams in the league. He said the defensive system in Nashville was because he best players were the goalie (Rinne) and his defensemen (Weber, Suter, Josi, etc...). If your best players are the goalie and the defense, you kind of have to play a defensive game. It wouldn't be smart to open up offensively when you don't have the players to do that. He said a good coach knows how to use his players the right way.

In Boston, their best players are the goalie (Rask), a defenseman (Chara) and one of the best defensive centers in the league (Bergeron). Just because Houda came from that team doesn't mean he can't coach defensemen to be more up tempo and jumping into the play offensively. I think coaches can adapt to whatever team they are on and who their players are. Blashill needs to be the one to set the tone and dictate how the team is playing in general, and the assistants need to follow his lead.

 

[acetehubernoob]

I thought I clicked on the GRG thread, not one of the 15 "our coaches are ****ing terrible and so is Holland" threads. I guess I was wrong.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I think you are understating Nelson's effectiveness as a coach. He has a track record from his days in the Edmonton orgnization for being good at developing young players. You also conveniently leave out the impressive season Russo had. Nelson seems to be a good coach and I think the odds are good he at least gets an interview for a head coaching gig.

Finally, there were clearly signs Blashill altered his approach as the team floundered early on last season. Everyone suggested the players needed time to learn his system, however as the season went on it was pretty clear they were moving away from Blashill's system after the advanced stats showed we were one of the worst teams in the league. If not for adjusting to a more defensive approach - along with no longer playing Kindl and Smith for huge minutes - the team was able to limp it's way into the playoffs on the back of Petr Mrazek's dominant start to the season.

So like I said above, I am not being critical of the Houda hire. I am however very skpetical of Blashill's preferred system being able to purportedly turn proverbial straw into gold. Add in the fact Holland felt it necessary to get a guy to coach the defense who has tons of experience under Claude Julien and I am of the opinion that it is reasonable to question whether the Blashill style is something we can expect to ever materialize.

Cam Neely called Julien's style an attempt to "win 0-0 games". If we know our GM's only stated goal at this point is to make the playoffs and if your prospect pool is almost entirely comprised of moderate skiill guys who are known for their two way games well it's safe to wonder which system is more likely to achieve your GM's stated goal?

This is getting a big off topic so let me bring it back: Sproul is not a fit for this organization. There are at least two guys in a position to trade for him who are quite familiar with his strengths and weaknesses. My only real stated opinion on the matter is to trade him now rather than risk losing him for nothing or have him basically eat up a roster spot in Detroit while never really being able to fit in with the organization.

First things first, Sproul alone doesn't have much if any trade value if that is your ultimate point. If he will push a larger deal through, go ahead and include him.

If Sproul flounders at the NHL level, it will be because of Ryan Sproul, not because of any coaching staff (be it Blashill's or some other coaching staff). Good players have the ability to adapt to different systems and play well under a variety of coaches. More importantly in the case of Sproul, sound defensive fundamentals transcend systems. If you can't control gaps under one coach, you won't be able to control gaps under a different coach. If you can't consistently angle puck carriers to low risk areas under one coach, you won't be able to do it for another coach. If your stick positioning is consistently bad for one coach, it will be consistently bad with another. If you consistently let your man get between you and the goal under one coach, you will do the same for all other coaches. The inverse is equally true. Systems may mitigate some of these issues but they will not fix them for good. These are the types of macro-level issues that Sproul struggled with prior to this year. If he really has corrected them (or is on the path to correcting them) he will be better regardless of who is coaching him.

I understand that Nelson is a very, very well regarded coach and I am certainly happy to have him in the organization. However, would someone please list all of these great young players he developed for Edmonton. People love to recite this but no one ever identifies these players.

This is a long way of saying that Sproul will not be doomed simply because he stays within the Detroit organization on a Blashill-coached team.

 

[Henkka]

I understand that Nelson is a very, very well regarded coach and I am certainly happy to have him in the organization. However, would someone please list all of these great young players he developed for Edmonton. People love to recite this but no one ever identifies these players.

Jeff Petry, Oscar Klefbom, Martin Marincin, Brandon Davidson, Darnell Nurse, Jordan Oesterle, Justin Schultz.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I thought I clicked on the GRG thread, not one of the 15 "our coaches are ****ing terrible and so is Holland" threads. I guess I was wrong.

Dallas is a team that plays high event hockey and high scoring hockey. Part of it could be due to goaltending. Ryan Sproul - who is currently a member of the Grand Rapids Griffins - is better suited for that style of play. This is why I think trading him makes sense.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Jeff Petry, Oscar Klefbom, Martin Marincin, Brandon Davidson, Darnell Nurse, Jordan Oesterle, Justin Schultz.

He did coach Petry for 90 games and Klefbom for sure. He coached Nurse for all of six professional games. You can have the other four, especially Schultz.

I do think he is a good coach, but I can't in good faith call him a miracle worker with young defensemen.

 

[Henkka]

He did coach Petry for 90 games and Klefbom for sure. He coached Nurse for all of six professional games. You can have the other four, especially Schultz.

I do think he is a good coach, but I can't in good faith call him a miracle worker with young defensemen.

He doesn't have to make miracles. Just do a good job, not kill prospects like Curt Fraser did.

 

[jaster]

Some analysis from GriffinsCentral:

http://griffinscentral.com/articles/051916.html

The short of it....

Based on the above, this is what the 2016-17 griffins Roster is shaping up to look like:

G
Jared Coreau*
Jake Paterson

D
V - Nathan Paetsch
V - Brian Lashoff*
Nick Jensen
Robbie Russo
Joe Hicketts
Ville Saarijarvi*
Dan Renouf
Joel Chouinard*

F
V - Eric Tangradi
V - Mitch Callahan*
V - Louis-Marc Aubry*
V - Veteran Forward FA (Andy Miele)*
Mark Zengerle*
Tyler Bertuzzi
Colin Campbell*
Zach Nastasiuk
Evgeny Svechnikov
Dominic Turgeon
Kyle Criscuolo
Mathew Santos
Alex Globke

So, notable names who would be OUT in this scenario....

Mantha
Frk
Sproul
Nosek
Ouellet
Athanasiou
Cleary
Hoggan
Andersson
McCollum

 

[FireBird71]

Some analysis from GriffinsCentral:

http://griffinscentral.com/articles/051916.html

The short of it....



So, notable names who would be OUT in this scenario....

Mantha
Frk
Sproul
Nosek
Ouellet
Athanasiou
Cleary
Hoggan
Andersson
McCollum

Most have to clear waivers..AA and Mantha will be n Detroit regardless and Andersson signed in Sweden

 

[Shaman464]

Most have to clear waivers..AA and Mantha will be n Detroit regardless and Andersson signed in Sweden

I see Mantha being kept down to start and being first call up.

 

[jaster]

I see Mantha being kept down to start and being first call up.

Agreed, that's what I expect as well.

Most have to clear waivers..AA and Mantha will be n Detroit regardless and Andersson signed in Sweden

I believe the notable guys vulnerable to waivers next season are Frk, Sproul, Ouellet, and Jensen. Maybe Nosek too, but he wouldn't be claimed, and may be back in Sweden anyway, rendering the point moot.

 

[HisNoodliness]

I see Mantha being kept down to start and being first call up.

I hope not...we really need him. Our team will be bad without him (and probably with him too). Hopefully he scores 100 goals in preseason and Holland begrudgingly accepts putting a good player on the team.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Agreed, that's what I expect as well.




I believe the notable guys vulnerable to waivers next season are Frk, Sproul, Ouellet, and Jensen. Maybe Nosek too, but he wouldn't be claimed, and may be back in Sweden anyway, rendering the point moot.

Nosek is Czech and I could see him sticking next year with the big club. Nosek does a lot of things well, especially in terms of translatable NHL type skills. His problem seems to be staying healthy long enough to get into a groove. He is a very good PK guy though, so we shall see, could absolutely see him carving out a depth role in Detroit.

 

[waltdetroit]

Aubrey had a very good year too, If the Wings keep a 4th liner up, it is probably between Nosek & Aubrey

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Aubrey had a very good year too, If the Wings keep a 4th liner up, it is probably between Nosek & Aubrey

I don't think Aubry has a big shot. His start and stop skating still needs a lot of work in my opinion. He has gotten a lot better, but I really don't see him as a NHL type though certainly his frame might give him a shot at some point. He is a guy that should be rooting hard for expansion and hope to go play well in Europe for bigger money for a year in my opinion and maybe the extra jobs shakes lose some opportunity.

 

[waltdetroit]

It seems to me Aubrey got a few timely big goals, more so than Nosek. Nosek has plenty of skill. If I made a comparison
Nosek = Anderson
Aubrey = Nestrasil

 

[Vatican Roulette]

Aubrey had a very good year too, If the Wings keep a 4th liner up, it is probably between Nosek & Aubrey

Nosek has shown he can produce in the AHL, Aubry has not.

Puck skills in the minors go a long way, but I wouldn't be surprised to see neither get the job.

 

[waltdetroit]

Puck skills in the minors go a long way, but I wouldn't be surprised to see neither get the job.

I agree with this part. But after all, Anderson was a 1st line center on a Calder Cup time - slow but his good puck skills in the AHL didn't get him that far in the NHL. Nosek is a 3rd line center in GRG and really hasn't shown me 1st line skill. Aubrey (12-17-29) has size and scored only 1 pt less than Nosek (15-15-30) this past season