Grading the draft

[Stand Witness]

You have a weird infatuation with the Canes. You acknowledge them in every reply to me. Maybe you should pay their board a visit, it might help you get something off your mind.



Apparently having legitimate concerns about a player the Leafs drafted is considered "bashing" now. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Be honest, how many times have you watched Marner play?

 

[Mess]

Why do you think Gardiner is a suitable replacement for Griffin Reinhart? Sounds like Edmonton wanted Hamilton and then shifted gears towards Reinhart a) because he's a similar body type and kind of a poor man's Hamilton b) because he played juniors in Edmonton with the Oil Kings.

Also, Reinhart was picked three years ago. He's still a prospect, whereas most players in Gardiner's age group who were likely to be star players have already blossomed into those players by now. He was picked 2 spots behind Erik Karlsson. I don't think people are seeing the same kind of upside there.

I agree there is no guarantee of that transaction happening. I fully acknowledge that fact. One can only truly go but what actually happened, but I would have sweetened the deal personally to include as I mentioned next years 2nd (from Pens) and Gardiner to make sure my offer was better than the NYI one.

However they showed Kyle Dubas in discussion with Chiarelli on the draft floor before Oilers traded those picks to NYI instead, so there was discussion and something brewing and Dubas shook his head and walked away like he turned down a deal on the draft floor. Also the trading of those picks actually happened that isn't fictitious only speculation as to if Leafs could have gotten them. For all we know the offer was a young dman like Gardiner and Dubas turned it down and walked away.

 

[TMLegend]

Be honest, how many times have you watched Marner play?

Enough. I've seen Hanifin and Strome more though.

 

[Judas Tavares]

I agree there is no guarantee of that transaction happening. I fully acknowledge that fact. One can only truly go but what actually happened, but I would have sweetened the deal personally to include as I mentioned next years 2nd (from Pens) and Gardiner to make sure my offer was better than the NYI one.

However they showed Kyle Dubas in discussion with Chiarelli on the draft floor before Oilers traded those picks to NYI instead, so there was discussion and something brewing and Dubas shook his head and walked away like he turned down a deal on the draft floor. Also the trading of those picks actually happened that isn't fictitious only speculation as to if Leafs could have gotten them. For all we know the offer was a young dman like Gardiner and Dubas turned it down and walked away.

Could have been Rielly. In that case I'm happy he shook his head. We likely won't ever know though.

 

[New Liskeard]

I'd give this draft a A-. A bit disappointed we didn't trade any roster players *cough cough Kessel cough cough Bozak* for picks but I guess they haven't found the right deal yet. But we picked up some pretty good players.

4 - TOR MITCHELL MARNER C CAN 5' 11" 160 OHL LONDON
34 - TOR TRAVIS DERMOTT D CAN 5' 11" 197 OHL ERIE
61 - TOR JEREMY BRACCO RW USA 5' 9" 173 USHL USA U-18
65 - TOR ANDREW NIELSEN D CAN 6' 3" 207 WHL LETHBRIDGE
68 - TOR MARTINS DZIERKALS LW LVA 5' 11" 169 RUSSIA-JR. RIGA 2
95 - TOR JESPER LINDGREN D SWE 5' 11" 161 SWEDEN-JR. MODO JR.
125 - TOR DMYTRO TIMASHOV LW UKR 5' 9" 192 QMJHL QUEBEC
155 - TOR STEPHEN DESROCHER D CAN 6' 3" 198 OHL OSHAWA
185 - TOR NIKITA KOROSTELEV RW RUS 6' 1" 195 OHL SARNIA


How would you rate it?

Ask that question in about 5 years.

 

[Semantics]

My biggest question marks likes and dislikes with Hunter and the Leafs draft that I will follow closely in the future will be.

Marner over Hanifin .. Who will be the better player here .. I would have taken Seth Jones over Jonathan Drouin in 2013 and I would have taken Noah Hanifin over Mitch Marner in 2015. Passing on the big #1 potential Dman when you are following the blueprint of building a team from the goalie out is questionable. IMO

zzz

Marner is *nothing* like Drouin. An elite IQ, brilliant playmaking, two-way puck hound versus a highly skilled puck hog. It's no contest.

You also would have taken Griffin Reinhart over Alex Galchenyuk, Adam Larsson over Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Erik Gudbranson over Tyler Seguin, and Thomas Hickey over Patrick Kane. So I don't think anything you have to say about Marner vs Hanifin is worth dog poop.

 

[hotpaws]

no problem with Marner , would have been just as happy if we picked Hanifin

Overall however i'm not crazy about our picks , with Nylander last year and Marner this year i didn't see the point in continuing to draft smurfs . How many do you need or can dress on a nightly basis ?

 

[7even]

no problem with Marner , would have been just as happy if we picked Hanifin

Overall however i'm not crazy about our picks , with Nylander last year and Marner this year i didn't see the point in continuing to draft smurfs . How many do you need or can dress on a nightly basis ?

That's the thing about the draft -- you're not drafting a team.

 

[Stephen]

Enough. I've seen Hanifin and Strome more though.

Where does one tune in regularly to Boston College games anyway? Seems kind of inaccessible to me. Anyway, would have loved both those players, and I can appreciate the appeal in checking off two potential franchise players on the defensive depth chart, but it does look like we are in possession of two of the most electric forward prospects in the game today. And that's not a bad thing when you look at what a dead heat the Western Conference is, and what most of those contending teams are lacking.

 

[7even]

So many bullish convictions built on nothing but air. What's the point?

 

[Stephen]

no problem with Marner , would have been just as happy if we picked Hanifin

Overall however i'm not crazy about our picks , with Nylander last year and Marner this year i didn't see the point in continuing to draft smurfs . How many do you need or can dress on a nightly basis ?

I dunno, ask Tampa, Callahan, Johnson, Kucherov, Drouin, Stralman all under 6'0", and a whole host of skill guys right at 6'0", don't mind what they were doing.

 

[Stand Witness]

Enough. I've seen Hanifin and Strome more though.

So how much is enough? You said this a while back

Not a big fan of Marner. I'll admit, I haven't watched him near as much as I have Strome or Hanifn but I'm not a fan of smaller players who lack elusiveness and get hit often. I dunno, seems like a disaster waiting to happen. He's probably a better player today than Strome in all honesty, but I think long term, I think Strome will end up being the better and more valuable player.

And what has happened within the last month to go from this to your current stance?

I'd trust Mark Hunter and co more than I would trust myself or public rankings of course. He's done very well in the CHL and import drafts, until he gives me reason to doubt his selections, I won't. This would be quite the off the board pick though.

 

[Judas Tavares]

Overall there wasn't enough skill in the pipeline. Now there is a nice chunk after the draft. Sure its a lot of small skill, but the Biggs types haven't really worked out. Hey, maybe Biggs will eventually make himself useful and be the guy the does the dirty work to help these small guys get the puck. We can also draft more size and less skill next year to mix it up. It's very rare you get a large combo of both, cause basically there aren't many of them in the draft and they all go very high. After they go, most players don't have either the size or the skill.

I think too many people expect each round to see a player taken that's 6'2", 195 and are above a point per game. That just doesn't happen, cause all those guys go top 15 or so.

 

[hotpaws]

I dunno, ask Tampa, Callahan, Johnson, Kucherov, Drouin, Stralman all under 6'0", and a whole host of skill guys right at 6'0", don't mind what they were doing.

ask them what ?

you listed there 5 shortest players , four of which are 5 11

we drafted 2 guys 5-9 and only 1 of our picks was over 6 feet before the 6th rd

if you think a top 6 which could include Marner-Nylander-Kadri-Kessel and say Braco will get us deep in the playoffs you're going to be very disappointed

 

[Stephen]

ask them what ?

you listed there 5 shortest players , four of which are 5 11

we drafted 2 guys 5-9 and only 1 of our picks was over 6 feet before the 6th rd

if you think a top 6 which could include Marner-Nylander-Kadri-Kessel and say Braco will get us deep in the playoffs you're going to be very disappointed

Tampa's best player is 5'9" Tyler Johnson. Marner and Nylander are both 5'11". Kessel and Kadri may not be here in a few years. Bracco is basically a third round pick and a hope and a prayer.

So basically we have 2 5'11" teenagers as building blocks and we're in Year 2 of the Shanaplan. Relax.

 

[BertCorbeau]

As a draft junkie and someone that watches 100's of junior games each year and ever minute of ever U-18, WJC and other events Frozen 4 and NCAA regional finals that are televised etc as well as buying major draft guides and reading all on-line scouting reports I can get my hands I always create my own draft board rankings each draft year. Then I compare Leafs actual picks to my own draft board and what I would have done if I was Leafs director of scouting.

Here is this year results.

Hunter's actual Leafs Draft

#4 --- Mitchell Marner, Right Wing/Centre, London Knights (OHL) – 5-foot-11, 160 pounds
#34 -- Travis Dermott, Defense, Erie Otters (OHL) – 5-foot-11, 197 pounds
#61 -- Jeremy Bracco, Right Wing, USHL (USA U-18) – 5-foot-9, 173 pounds
#65 -- Andrew Nielsen, Defense, Lethbridge Broncos (WHL) – 6-foot-3, 207 pounds
#68 -- Martins Dzierkals, Left Wing, Riga 2 ( Russia Jr.) – 5-foot-11, 169 pounds
#95 -- Jesper Lindgren, Defense, Modo Jr (Sweden JR) – 5-foot-11, 161 pounds
#125 - Dmytro Timashov, Left Wing, Quebec Remparts (QMJHL) – 5-foot-9, 192 pounds
#155 - Stephen Desrocher, Defense, Oshawa General (OHL) – 6-foot-3, 198 pounds
#185 - Nikita Korostelev, Right Wing, Sarnia Sting, (OHL) 6-foot-2, 195 pounds

My Leafs draft (using my draft rankings board) for 2015 draft

#4 --- Noah Hanifin, D, Boston College (NCAA) – 6-foot-2, 205 pounds
#16 -- Mathew Barzal, C, Seattle Thunderbirds (WHL) – 6-foot-0, 180 pounds
#29 -- Nick Merkley, RW/C, Kelowna Rockets (WHL) — 5-foot-10, 185 pounds
#33 -- Jansen Harkins, C, Prince George Cougars (WHL) – 6-foot-1, 180 pounds
#61 -- Alexander Dergachyov, Centre, SKA St. Petersburg (KHL) – 6-foot-4, 200 pounds
#65 -- Felix Sandstrom, Goaltender, Brynas IF, (SHL) – 6-foot-2, 191 pounds
#95 -- Parker Wotherspoon, Defence, Tri-City Americans, (WHL) – 6-foot-0, 171 pounds
#125 - Simon Bourque, Defense, Rimouski, (QMJHL) – 6-foot-0, 184 pounds
#155 - Stephen Desrocher, Defense, Oshawa General (OHL) – 6-foot-3, 198 pounds
#185 - Nikita Korostelev, Right Wing, Sarnia Sting, (OHL) 6-foot-2, 195 pounds

* Instead of the NYI trading Griffin Reinhart, I would have traded Jake Gardiner to Edmonton for #16 and #33 when Barzal was on the board, and moved heaven and earth to get that pick even if it meant adding another pick (Pens 2nd in 2016)..

** Instead of trading #29 for #34 and #68 I would not have traded out of the 1st round but stayed at #29 particularly when my hometown team Merkley was still on the board.

I'm mostly impressed that you absolutely nailed the Leafs last two picks in the draft Well done Mess

 

[hotpaws]

Tampa's best player is 5'9" Tyler Johnson. Marner and Nylander are both 5'11". Kessel and Kadri may not be here in a few years. Bracco is basically a third round pick and a hope and a prayer.

So basically we have 2 5'11" teenagers as building blocks and we're in Year 2 of the Shanaplan. Relax.

I said i have no problem with the Nylander and Marner picks .

I questioned the decision to keep drafting small players when we already consider Nylander and Marner as part of our future core . Not to mention our present top 6 is already small/soft .

There's also more players than just small/skilled - big/unskilled .

I am relaxed thank you , i'm just adding my cents to the discussion about our draft .

 

[Stephen]

I said i have no problem with the Nylander and Marner picks .

I questioned the decision to keep drafting small players when we already consider Nylander and Marner as part of our future core . Not to mention our present top 6 is already small/soft .

There's also more players than just small/skilled - big/unskilled .

I am relaxed thank you , i'm just adding my cents to the discussion about our draft .

I would have liked taking a Dergachyov who has size and skill if not other issues, but Timashov, Bracco etc. are fine. Detroit takes a lot of these kinds of players, but only a handful emerge to be a useful Tatar or Nyquist every few years, and only once in every dozen or so years do you get a Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

 

[dimi78]

ask them what ?

you listed there 5 shortest players , four of which are 5 11

we drafted 2 guys 5-9 and only 1 of our picks was over 6 feet before the 6th rd

if you think a top 6 which could include Marner-Nylander-Kadri-Kessel and say Braco will get us deep in the playoffs you're going to be very disappointed

Good thing there's trades allowed isn't it?

The Draft is about adding as many assets as you can just as much as it's to draft potential core players. That's why most would say draft best player available rather than need do to who you draft is never a 100% guarantee to pan out. You can draft a kid in the 1st round who develops into a depth player and in the same draft year get a kid in the 4th round that becomes a core player... That's why it's smart business to focus your picks when drafting best player available under the criteria of natural talent and hockey sense rather than size and intangibles.

You don't build solely through the draft other wise you'll be in a constant rebuild. You have to have hits with trades and in UFA to build a winner. You need to have success in all 3 to build a winner. The change in focus in how the Team drafted this year under the criteria of skill and hockey sense above all else gave this team more bullets for not only a chance to develop potential core players but some potential quality trade assets as well.

We don't know what this draft will turn out my grade of A++ isn't based on that I think we've landed a bunch of studs. The future will tell on that which is why I'm one who believes the draft is one big crap shoot. I gave A++ for the switch in focus. You can't teach natural talent & hockey sense but you can develop physical strength and fitness. This change in focus bolds a lot more to give the organization quality assets than the way we've been doing business before. Time will tell but I'm really happy of this change.

The real work though starts with development however. This is the area where you make your picks count and this organization has been the worst in pro sports at doing it that keeps me some what in the dark of believing this organization is on the right track. We have to turn the corner & STOP BEING CKICKENS to develop our best youth IN THE NHL. Until I see that change I'm cautiously optimistic about where we're headed with draft & development.

 

[Northernguy10]

I think the most underrated player that we drafted this year was Dermott. We could have a special player there in a few years.

I agree. Every time I tuned in to watch McDavid and Strome this year , Dermott caught my attention. I think he's going to be a good one.

 

[hotpaws]

Good thing there's trades allowed isn't it?

The Draft is about adding as many assets as you can just as much as it's to draft potential core players. That's why most would say draft best player available rather than need do to who you draft is never a 100% guarantee to pan out. You can draft a kid in the 1st round who develops into a depth player and in the same draft year get a kid in the 4th round that becomes a core player... That's why it's smart business to focus your picks when drafting best player available under the criteria of natural talent and hockey sense rather than size and intangibles.

You don't build solely through the draft other wise you'll be in a constant rebuild. You have to have hits with trades and in UFA to build a winner. You need to have success in all 3 to build a winner. The change in focus in how the Team drafted this year under the criteria of skill and hockey sense above all else gave this team more bullets for not only a chance to develop potential core players but some potential quality trade assets as well.

We don't know what this draft will turn out my grade of A++ isn't based on that I think we've landed a bunch of studs. The future will tell on that which is why I'm one who believes the draft is one big crap shoot. I gave A++ for the switch in focus. You can't teach natural talent & hockey sense but you can develop physical strength and fitness. This change in focus bolds a lot more to give the organization quality assets than the way we've been doing business before. Time will tell but I'm really happy of this change.

The real work though starts with development however. This is the area where you make your picks count and this organization has been the worst in pro sports at doing it that keeps me some what in the dark of believing this organization is on the right track. We have to turn the corner & STOP BEING CKICKENS to develop our best youth IN THE NHL. Until I see that change I'm cautiously optimistic about where we're headed with draft & development.

many people used to give every Burke draft A++ as well and lauded him for wanting to build a big tough team and said you can't teach size but you can develop skill

again i'll clarify this for you

i have no problem with the Marner and Nylander picks and it's because i believe these two will be a part of our top 6 core that i believe we needed to take more size with our later picks because no one's going to trade you a big prospect who's developing well for a small ones

you're a little too sensitive , i'm not knocking the Bracco's of our draft , i'm just saying we should drafted players that could have potentially complimented Nylander/Marner and whoever remains from our current soft/small top 6

i'll also put it this way for you

if we were the Panthers with their size in the top 6 and having just taken Crouse in the first rd i wouldn't have had a problem taking flyers on smaller skilled guys with the remainder of our picks in the hope 1-2 pan out

 

[Bullseye]

I wanted Hanifin or Provorov because I believe in putting your money where your mouth is. I wanted to see a stud taken to skate with Rielly and secure speed and skill from the back end. I love Mitch Marner - don't get me wrong but I would have chosen Hanifin and let Hunter take his skilled forwards later as he ended up doing anyway.

On the other hand - there are too many recent misses with defencemen - Reinhart, Murray, Bogosian, Schenn, Johnson, etc etc...

I know the plan is to stock up on skill and speed and take them where ever you can. Dermott is the type of guy that can succeed because he's not one or the other type of d-man - he's both. Hunter wanted him badly so that has got to mean something.

Anyway, this is just year one of the Hunter/Dubas drafting strategy.

If they took Hanifin I would award an A+

Right now I give it an A-

 

[Gabriel426]

A is the grade since they didn't trade down and draft Lawson Crouse.

 

[Mats13]

Enough. I've seen Hanifin and Strome more though.

I have a hard time believing you have seen very much of Hanifin, especially considering you're from Canada. I saw Hanifin at the WJC and during the frozen four tournament, I have no idea how you would've watched any more than that.

So, please tell me how you managed to watch so much of him?

Oh and Marner is unreal. You clearly haven't seen much of him if you don't think he's better than Strome.

 

[Gabriel426]

Don't see the point of discussing who is better between Strome and Marner as Leafs never had the chance to grab him. If the debate is about Marner, Hanifin,and others, I think it is a good discussions but not with Strome.