Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part 2

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Who are the dudes telling him these players are good before he trades for them

Whoever they are should no longer be employed.

 

[Xspyrit]

Of course, having more vets would result in more wins. But it also depends on the QUALITY and not the QUANTITY

Dadonov and Murray, and to a lesser extent Watson and Gudbranson can help but we still lost Pageau, Duclair, Ryan, DeMelo, Namestnikov, Ennis, Hainsey and Borowiecki

We absolutely had to bring in some vets but a veteran center and a competent RD was crucial just to be able to stay on float. That's when you can hope for your young guys to step up and improve the team

Stepan, Paquette, Coburn, Brown, Anisimov, Reilly, Galchenyuk... replace them by 1 competent center and 1 competent D-man and it makes a huge difference.

For an example, just going to pencil in Pageau and DeMelo to show how the lineup would look like :

Stutzle-Pageau-Dadonov
Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson
Paul-White-Brown
Balcers-Tierney-Watson
Chlapik

Chabot-DeMelo
Brannstrom-Zub
Wolanin-Zaitsev
Gudbranson

Murray
Hogberg/Daccord

 

[Beech]

Whoever they are should no longer be employed.

imagine the scouts who encouraged the signing of Lucic in Edmonton. Neal in Calgary. Ryan and Legwand here..You can go through the league and see 20-30 signings that make you go WTF..is Vancouver over Loui Eriksson?

Influential scouts...influential agents (I will go to my grave believing the Legwand signing was a favor to Newsport, to remain in their good books). Listen to Simmer talk about Newsport and influential agents.

This shit happens. What is surprising; it seems to happen here a tad more often. And Eugene who is channeling is inner Jerry Jones, is either allowing it to happen, or is the cause. Neither is good. 200 Km due east is another team that tore and rebuilt and hit one home run after another...

 

[Big Muddy]

The problem he's having is the same as he had last year. It's not his strategy, it's who he decides to bring in. His goal of insulating with Vets is the obvious route, he's just been incapable of bringing in any that can provide much on the ice, or at least not be a liability. His words are hollow when you're talking about vets that do nothing but actively hurt the team, all while talking as if young players need to be held accountable.

They seem to like signing players who already have been paid their signing bonuses as well.

Stepan had already been paid a $3 m signing bonus, so his salary was only $2 m (and a AAV of $6.5 m). That is something I think Dorion could more easily sell to Melnyk.

As they say, follow the money.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Hope this whole anisimov thing is a wake up for GM and coach. The whole thing was at BEST a farce. And at worst it was a hilarious misevaluation of player talent.

He played 50 minutes, in total, for this team this year and then got waived. They gave him one of the shortest leashes imaginable to prove he could still play at the NHL level and then told him to f*** off.

This team is not contending and every guy should be given a reasonable amount of time to show the coaching staff and management what they are capable of. Anisimov and Coburn have proven they're toast but Reilly and Murray have proven that they needed a little time to get going. We can't have it both ways, is all I'm saying.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

imagine the scouts who encouraged the signing of Lucic in Edmonton. Neal in Calgary. Ryan and Legwand here..You can go through the league and see 20-30 signings that make you go WTF..is Vancouver over Loui Eriksson?

Influential scouts...influential agents (I will go to my grave believing the Legwand signing was a favor to Newsport, to remain in their good books). Listen to Simmer talk about Newsport and influential agents.

This shit happens. What is surprising; it seems to happen here a tad more often. And Eugene who is channeling is inner Jerry Jones, is either allowing it to happen, or is the cause. Neither is good. 200 Km due east is another team that tore and rebuilt and hit one home run after another...

You raise an interesting point and I don't doubt there's some fishiness going on considering some of the mind blowing contracts that get handed out. Just gotta get your name on that dotted line and then you can sail in to retirement as you stink up the ice and leave your team to try to clean up the mess.

Dorion doesn't do the big dollar commitments, obviously from Melnyk's situation, but he has certainly paid a fair amount of cash to players that were beyond their last legs.

They seem to like signing players who already have been paid their signing bonuses as well.

Stepan had already been paid a $3 m signing bonus, so his salary was only $2 m (and a AAV of $6.5 m). That is something I think Dorion could more easily sell to Melnyk.

As they say, follow the money.

For sure it is par for the course for them. I honestly feel foolish for having missed this aspect of the deal, the signing bonus being paid obviously explains the significant overpayment for Stepan.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

He played 50 minutes, in total, for this team this year and then got waived. They gave him one of the shortest leashes imaginable to prove he could still play at the NHL level and then told him to f*** off.

This team is not contending and every guy should be given a reasonable amount of time to show the coaching staff and management what they are capable of. Anisimov and Coburn have proven they're toast but Reilly and Murray have proven that they needed a little time to get going. We can't have it both ways, is all I'm saying.

Murray just got a monstrous contract. He was always going to play.
Playing anisimov over White was a farce. Parading that he was your best player in camp...please. The team though he was one of this organizations 4 best centers. He only played 50 minutes total Becuase the team was so wrong they could no longer keep playing him. Coburn brown anisimov paquette all proven to be not so great (why was this no known before the year even started)? It was most certainly not managements and the coaches plan to stand behind these players and then be so bad just TEN games into the season that they need to all come out

 

[Big Muddy]

You raise an interesting point and I don't doubt there's some fishiness going on considering some of the mind blowing contracts that get handed out. Just gotta get your name on that dotted line and then you can sail in to retirement as you stink up the ice and leave your team to try to clean up the mess.

Dorion doesn't do the big dollar commitments, obviously from Melnyk's situation, but he has certainly paid a fair amount of cash to players that were beyond their last legs.

For sure it is par for the course for them. I honestly feel foolish for having missed this aspect of the deal, the signing bonus being paid obviously explains the significant overpayment for Stepan.

No worries. Sometimes the Senators decide to spend some money as well which often seems like a surprise e.g., Dadonov, Murray. So, you can't generalize too much and have to look deeper into the details of course. Free agency was a good place to catch low cost free agents this year. If all they were looking for was somewhat decent stop gaps (one year contracts), it was good place to go fishing. But, I think if you look at many of the trades that have been made, money was a prime factor. After a prospect gets good and is seeking his payday type contract, that's a situation where Melnyk tends to move the player.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Murray just got a monstrous contract. He was always going to play.
Playing anisimov over White was a farce. Parading that he was your best player in camp...please. The team though he was one of this organizations 4 best centers. He only played 50 minutes total Becuase the team was so wrong they could no longer keep playing him. Coburn brown anisimov paquette all proven to be not so great (why was this no known before the year even started)? It was most certainly not managements and the coaches plan to stand behind these players and then be so bad just TEN games into the season that they need to all come out

Man, if the people running this team had your lack of patience I wonder who exactly would be on this roster. You guys speak so matter-of-factly about behind the scenes things, it's so impressive to be so connected. Tell me what were the meetings with Anisimov, Brown, White, Coburn et al. like? You seem to know exactly what's going on and how each player is specifically motivated.

I guess there's simply no chance that with a lack of proper training camp and preseason games that some guys might have looked good in practice or might have had really great, positive attitudes and so they got a chance to prove themselves.

The real answer is that this organization can't evaluate these specific players properly (but somehow are doing ok with everyone else tho?) and so they must have no idea what they're doing.

What a fun take.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Man, if the people running this team had your lack of patience I wonder who exactly would be on this roster. You guys speak so matter-of-factly about behind the scenes things, it's so impressive to be so connected. Tell me what were the meetings with Anisimov, Brown, White, Coburn et al. like? You seem to know exactly what's going on and how each player is specifically motivated.

I guess there's simply no chance that with a lack of proper training camp and preseason games that some guys might have looked good in practice or might have had really great, positive attitudes and so they got a chance to prove themselves.

The real answer is that this organization can't evaluate these specific players properly (but somehow are doing ok with everyone else tho?) and so they must have no idea what they're doing.

What a fun take.

Patience. Pushing 30 years waiting for a cup lol. And I’ll wait 50 more if need be. I have more patience than all of them combined.
Yes. That’s the answer lol. They traded for gud brown coburn. Thought anisimov was one of their four best centers. And trade for paquette. Yes. They poorly evaluated those players.

 

[BatherSeason]

Man, if the people running this team had your lack of patience I wonder who exactly would be on this roster. You guys speak so matter-of-factly about behind the scenes things, it's so impressive to be so connected. Tell me what were the meetings with Anisimov, Brown, White, Coburn et al. like? You seem to know exactly what's going on and how each player is specifically motivated.

I guess there's simply no chance that with a lack of proper training camp and preseason games that some guys might have looked good in practice or might have had really great, positive attitudes and so they got a chance to prove themselves.

The real answer is that this organization can't evaluate these specific players properly (but somehow are doing ok with everyone else tho?) and so they must have no idea what they're doing.

What a fun take.

It's all part of the Master Plan folks.

 

[BatherSeason]

Man, if the people running this team had your lack of patience I wonder who exactly would be on this roster. You guys speak so matter-of-factly about behind the scenes things, it's so impressive to be so connected. Tell me what were the meetings with Anisimov, Brown, White, Coburn et al. like? You seem to know exactly what's going on and how each player is specifically motivated.

I guess there's simply no chance that with a lack of proper training camp and preseason games that some guys might have looked good in practice or might have had really great, positive attitudes and so they got a chance to prove themselves.

The real answer is that this organization can't evaluate these specific players properly (but somehow are doing ok with everyone else tho?) and so they must have no idea what they're doing.

What a fun take.

Counter point. Pierre thought these players were good.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Patience. Pushing 30 years waiting for a cup lol. And I’ll wait 50 more if need be. I have more patience than all of them combined.
Yes. That’s the answer lol. They traded for gud brown coburn. Thought anisimov was one of their four best centers. And trade for paquette. Yes. They poorly evaluated those players.

Poorly evaluated? These were low risk trades. Gudbranson cost a fifth, J. Brown a fourth and they got paid a second round pick to take Paquette/Coburn. If these were above average players they would have never been traded for that little.

This whole thing was an exercise to see if they could buy low on some players and hopefully recoup better assets later in the season. J. Brown might be someone used for expansion draft exposure which has value in and of itself.

Saying they evaluated poorly, in this context, is honestly ridiculous. It'd be like saying your got ripped off because you paid a dollar for something.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

No worries. Sometimes the Senators decide to spend some money as well which often seems like a surprise e.g., Dadonov, Murray. So, you can't generalize too much and have to look deeper into the details of course. Free agency was a good place to catch low cost free agents this year. If all they were looking for was somewhat decent stop gaps (one year contracts), it was good place to go fishing. But, I think if you look at many of the trades that have been made, money was a prime factor. After a prospect gets good and is seeking his payday type contract, that's a situation where Melnyk tends to move the player.

Yes, there is a long history of what you've detailed here. I can understand the why, but its still discouraging as a fan to see hockey assets used for cash, especially since Dorion is a bit loose with them in general.

If I targeted so much mediocrity as I think Dorion does, I would look to find it cheaper personally and take the lumps of any drop off. Can it really be much worse as far as on ice performance goes? I'd bet there are easily a few AHL vets that would provide similar performance to a lot of the fodder we end up acquiring.

 

[BatherSeason]

Poorly evaluated? These were low risk trades. Gudbranson cost a fifth, J. Brown a fourth and they got paid a second round pick to take Paquette/Coburn. If these were above average players they would have never been traded for that little.

This whole thing was an exercise to see if they could buy low on some players and hopefully recoup better assets later in the season. J. Brown might be someone used for expansion draft exposure which has value in and of itself.

Saying they evaluated poorly, in this context, is honestly ridiculous. It'd be like saying your got ripped off because you paid a dollar for something.

Once again, all part of the master plan thought up one winter's day in Barbados right after a trip to Sweden.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

EK65, 11 games played, 3 assists, so far this season.

this trade looks better every passing day.



$11,500,000 per season for how many more years?

 

[BatherSeason]

EK65, 11 games played, 3 assists, so far this season.

this trade looks better every passing day.



$11,500,000 per season for how many more years?

Get over it dude, you wanted him gone years ago, why do you keep dragging him back into every argument? And based on what we hear from Dorion and Melnyk, they did everything they could to sign him, but couldn't.

 

[Hale The Villain]

EK65, 11 games played, 3 assists, so far this season.

this trade looks better every passing day.



$11,500,000 per season for how many more years?

Good thing he didn't accept Dorion's 10M x 8YR deal then.

Imagine giving Dorion credit for throwing a massive contract at EK and fortunately having Karlsson decline due to the horrible state of the organization, which he mainly caused.

 

[Big Muddy]

[QUOTE="Gesus, post: 175816320, member: 43771"
If I targeted so much mediocrity as I think Dorion does, I would look to find it cheaper......[/QUOTE]

Yes, or use other alternatives that are available. Might have only cost a 4th or 5th (or worse Stepan for a 2nd), but there were 1 year stop gaps that were easily equivalent or better that didn't require any picks. Quality versus quantity as I and others have pointed out. You batch the money spent on 2 or 3 of these bottom of the roster players together and you the money required for a better alternative (e.g., possibly via free agency). Waste not, want not.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

[QUOTE="Gesus, post: 175816320, member: 43771"
If I targeted so much mediocrity as I think Dorion does, I would look to find it cheaper......

Yes, or use other alternatives that are available. Might have only cost a 4th or 5th (or worse Stepan for a 2nd), but there were 1 year stop gaps that were easily equivalent or better that didn't require any picks. Quality versus quantity as I and others have pointed out. You batch the money spent on 2 or 3 of these bottom of the roster players together and you the money required for a better alternative (e.g., possibly via free agency). Waste not, want not.[/QUOTE]
I agree completely. I'd rather lump the assets spent and try to go towards one decent option and a couple lesser knowns than say 4 replacement level, but living on a well known resume, thus more expensive than their performance should dictate players.

 

[branch]

EK65, 11 games played, 3 assists, so far this season.

this trade looks better every passing day.



$11,500,000 per season for how many more years?

No matter how hard you try to paint this as a stroke of genius deep down you know how disingenuous this it

 

[LudwigVonKarlsson]

Poorly evaluated? These were low risk trades. Gudbranson cost a fifth, J. Brown a fourth and they got paid a second round pick to take Paquette/Coburn. If these were above average players they would have never been traded for that little.

This whole thing was an exercise to see if they could buy low on some players and hopefully recoup better assets later in the season. J. Brown might be someone used for expansion draft exposure which has value in and of itself.

Saying they evaluated poorly, in this context, is honestly ridiculous. It'd be like saying your got ripped off because you paid a dollar for something.

Stepan trade was also a failure. All those trades you mentioned earlier we’re lambasted on this website at the time as bad moves and it only took about a week or so for these trades to confirmed as such.

 

[Stylizer1]

No matter how hard you try to paint this as a stroke of genius deep down you know how disingenuous this it

This was Karlssons team and there is no way he would have fallen off. He is on a team now where he is not the go to guy and has to fit in. It's pretty simple. He is not worth that much in SJ and they were stupid for giving him that contract but in Ottawa he would be worth it.

 

[Tuna99]

Dorion said the team has to show improvement this season and compete for the playoffs.

the mental gymnastics him and Melnyck are going through to explain this to the fan base, won’t be fun.

 

[Fandlauer]

Obviously we are a last place team this year. Next year we should be close to dead last as well. That will be half a decade of last/near last place finishes. Man time goes by fast. I said when this first started to expect at least a decade of darkness. I fully stand by that.