Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part 2

[Wondercarrot]

It’s almost inconceivable that anyone credible will take a GM job here while the current owner is in place. It’s just not going to happen.
I guess it might be tempting because there are lots of good pieces and you wouldn’t be responsible for the last guy’s stupid moves.
I doubt it though, and a new GM is going to want his own coach at some point - and no time like the present for a 1-10-1 coach who likely doesn’t share your philosophy.

I just don’t see Melnyk paying for all of that, and I don’t seem him bringing in a GM who isn’t willing to eat an enormous amount of shite.

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[TheDebater]

I just don’t see Melnyk paying for all of that, and I don’t seem him bringing in a GM who isn’t willing to eat an enormous amount of shite.

I know Melnyk has a certain reputation now and it is entirely his fault, but the past year and a bit has shown that something has changed and maybe things are improving, for example off the top of my head:

- signing Colin White to a big contract
- signing Chabot to a huge contract
- buying out Bobby Ryan
- signing Dadonov
- signing Matt Murray

Say what you want, but Melnyk will spend when necessary, maybe not like the big budget teams, but let not confuse "being cheap" with "terrible value".

Take what he is spending on Stepan, Paquette, Coburn, Gudbranson etc. And you can probably use that money for a much better player or two as opposed to quantity over quality.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I know Melnyk has a certain reputation now and it is entirely his fault, but the past year and a bit has shown that something has changed and maybe things are improving, for example off the top of my head:

- signing Colin White to a big contract
- signing Chabot to a huge contract
- buying out Bobby Ryan
- signing Dadonov
- signing Matt Murray

Say what you want, but Melnyk will spend when necessary, maybe not like the big budget teams, but let not confuse "being cheap" with "terrible value".

Take what he is spending on Stepan, Paquette, Coburn, Gudbranson etc. And you can probably use that money for a much better player or two as opposed to quantity over quality.

I woukd argue the Chabot and White contracts weren't proof of any change for Melnyk even though it's been framed that way.

He can and always has been able to handle straight salary contracts that don't put them over the cap floor. They were no more of a commitment than any other contract helping them get to the floor. No bonus payments to worry about and White's can be bought out cheaply if desired.

 

[Beech]

I know Melnyk has a certain reputation now and it is entirely his fault, but the past year and a bit has shown that something has changed and maybe things are improving, for example off the top of my head:

- signing Colin White to a big contract
- signing Chabot to a huge contract
- buying out Bobby Ryan
- signing Dadonov
- signing Matt Murray

Say what you want, but Melnyk will spend when necessary, maybe not like the big budget teams, but let not confuse "being cheap" with "terrible value".

Take what he is spending on Stepan, Paquette, Coburn, Gudbranson etc. And you can probably use that money for a much better player or two as opposed to quantity over quality.

I have always believed that fan anger at him for being cheap was misplaced and a faulty conclusion.

My beef with him is:
1) He does a poor job of running the team in terms of people he hires and sticks with. And that includes fan favorite Brian Murray.
2) his character is poor. There is a laundry list of acts that show poor character..antics that are criminal... And my observation has always been. Poor character people should be avoided, they will in the long term hurt. Play with snakes and eventually you will be bitten. Play with dogs and you will be comforted for life...As part of this character issue, he felt a need to insult me as a fan, threaten me with moving the team, all because I did not fill his arena..all after one miraculous run in one playoff year..discounting that the 10 previous year had been at best so-so and turmoil ridden..Kinda reminds me of a certain character in politics, due South of us.

 

[stempniaksen]

Say what you want, but Melnyk will spend when necessary, maybe not like the big budget teams, but let not confuse "being cheap" with "terrible value".

This team is still spending less real dollars than any other team in the league on the on-ice product, and while it's harder to verify, I'd imagine he's spending near the bottom on the coaching staff and front office. Being cheap and spending your limited resources on terrible value aren't mutually exclusive .

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

This team is still spending less real dollars than any other team in the league on the on-ice product, and while it's harder to verify, I'd imagine he's spending near the bottom on the coaching staff and front office. Being cheap and spending your limited resources on terrible value aren't mutually exclusive .

Ya the narrative that anything has really changed is false. He's spending a little more than required and thats it.

I would call it trending positively at this point, but no kudos deserved yet.

 

[GCK]

This team is still spending less real dollars than any other team in the league on the on-ice product, and while it's harder to verify, I'd imagine he's spending near the bottom on the coaching staff and front office. Being cheap and spending your limited resources on terrible value aren't mutually exclusive .

2nd lowest. We are 55.5M and LA is around 4M lower.

 

[topshelf15]

55.5 mil in actual dollars....Even for a rebuild that is laughably bad,add in the next to nothing we pay our front office and yep nothing has changed

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I woukd argue the Chabot and White contracts weren't proof of any change for Melnyk even though it's been framed that way..

But Chabot was supposed to offer-sheeted out of Ottawa by now???

According to many on these boards there was not way Chabot was going to stay in Ottawa, Because the Mean Old Cheapo wasn't going to pay him, and Chabot would have welcomed an offer-sheet to get out of Ottawa............. what changed?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

55.5 mil in actual dollars....Even for a rebuild that is laughably bad,add in the next to nothing we pay our front office and yep nothing has changed

Certainly not to the point anyone should be giving Melnyk any credit. He's done nothing of note yet and is spending what? A couple mil more than he's technically required? Lol.

 

[slamigo]

I think it's only fair that GM Dorion be shown the door now. It's over. He's failed miserably.
We are at the point now where he is going to make the same mistakes with our young stars that he did 4-5 years ago. He will repeat his mistakes because of his hubris and resistance to the truth. The whole league sees what is going on in Ottawa and has a general idea of how to fix it, but Dorion always seems to have a different idea.

 

[Hale The Villain]

It's only 55M because of backloaded contracts. Lots of players with lower 2020/21 salaries than their cap hits:

Chabot's cap hit is 8M, 2020/21 salary is 7M
Murray's cap hit is 6.25M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Dadonov's cap hit is 5M, 2020/21 salary is 3.5M
White's cap hit is 4.75M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Brown's cap hit is 3.6M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Tierney's cap hit is 3.5M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Paul's cap hit is 1.35M, 2020/21 salary is 1.2M
Brown's cap hit is 1.2M, 2020/21 salary is 1M

7.35M in savings for 2020/21, at the cost of higher salaries in future years.

If you can believe it watching this year's team, Dorion has actually sacrificed future room in the budget to put this roster together.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Ya the narrative that anything has really changed is false. He's spending a little more than required and thats it.

I would call it trending positively at this point, but no kudos deserved yet.

So the season, that almost everyone had projected Ottawa to finish dead last, overall, or close enough to dead last..... was the Season to spend to the Cap, or close to the Cap?

This is and always was going to a be "throw away" season for a re-building team, for a number of reasons.

Stopped playing on March 10th of last year

virtually zero practice/training camp to analyze status of prospects within system

no pre season games to integrate all the new players on roster, and set up systems

Anyone who had any expectations of competing for a playoff spot, or even respectability, were not grounded in reality. Ottawa is going to finish dead last this season, and will have the highest odds of wining the 1st lottery

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

So the season, that almost everyone had projected Ottawa to finish dead last, overall, or close enough to dead last..... was the Season to spend to the Cap, or close to the Cap?

This is and always was going to a be "throw away" season for a re-building team, for a number of reasons.

Stopped playing on March 10th of last year

virtually zero practice/training camp to analyze status of prospects within system

no pre season games to integrate all the new players on roster, and set up systems

Anyone who had any expectations of competing for a playoff spot, or even respectability, were not grounded in reality. Ottawa is going to finish dead last this season, and will have the highest odds of wining the 1st lottery

See above. Then read my post again and see that I didn't reference almost anything you've brought up. No kudos because nothing has changed or been proven yet, maybe one day.

 

[h2owned]

Only reason to not fire Dorion is that they aren't going to replace him with a real gm. Those cost money.
Same with DJ although don't see how he's still here next year. Clouston, cameron, maclean, Boucher, DJ, all guys with limited experience who were the or one of the cheapest options available.
When Murray retired that they only considered Randy Lee and Dorion for the position says a lot.

 

[cudi]

Only reason to not fire Dorion is that they aren't going to replace him with a real gm. Those cost money.
Same with DJ although don't see how he's still here next year. Clouston, cameron, maclean, Boucher, DJ, all guys with limited experience who were the or one of the cheapest options available.
When Murray retired that they only considered Randy Lee and Dorion for the position says a lot.

We already don't have a real GM

 

[Beech]

It's only 55M because of backloaded contracts. Lots of players with lower 2020/21 salaries than their cap hits:

Chabot's cap hit is 8M, 2020/21 salary is 7M
Murray's cap hit is 6.25M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Dadonov's cap hit is 5M, 2020/21 salary is 3.5M
White's cap hit is 4.75M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Brown's cap hit is 3.6M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Tierney's cap hit is 3.5M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Paul's cap hit is 1.35M, 2020/21 salary is 1.2M
Brown's cap hit is 1.2M, 2020/21 salary is 1M

7.35M in savings for 2020/21, at the cost of higher salaries in future years.

If you can believe it watching this year's team, Dorion has actually sacrificed future room in the budget to put this roster together.

An OH f*** moment

 

[Dan Patrick]

One thing that the organization needs to focus on is expanding our scouting group. Just looking around the league at successful teams it seems we could stand to hire another 4-10 scouts across the amateur and pro groups. It's obviously not something that will have any immediate effect on the on ice product but I think a lot of our current issues have some relation to deficiencies in our scouting.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's only 55M because of backloaded contracts. Lots of players with lower 2020/21 salaries than their cap hits:

Chabot's cap hit is 8M, 2020/21 salary is 7M
Murray's cap hit is 6.25M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Dadonov's cap hit is 5M, 2020/21 salary is 3.5M
White's cap hit is 4.75M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Brown's cap hit is 3.6M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Tierney's cap hit is 3.5M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Paul's cap hit is 1.35M, 2020/21 salary is 1.2M
Brown's cap hit is 1.2M, 2020/21 salary is 1M

7.35M in savings for 2020/21, at the cost of higher salaries in future years.

If you can believe it watching this year's team, Dorion has actually sacrificed future room in the budget to put this roster together.

That is very concerning. Sacrificing future funds to have a last place team.

 

[coladin]

It's only 55M because of backloaded contracts. Lots of players with lower 2020/21 salaries than their cap hits:

Chabot's cap hit is 8M, 2020/21 salary is 7M
Murray's cap hit is 6.25M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Dadonov's cap hit is 5M, 2020/21 salary is 3.5M
White's cap hit is 4.75M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Brown's cap hit is 3.6M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Tierney's cap hit is 3.5M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Paul's cap hit is 1.35M, 2020/21 salary is 1.2M
Brown's cap hit is 1.2M, 2020/21 salary is 1M

7.35M in savings for 2020/21, at the cost of higher salaries in future years.

If you can believe it watching this year's team, Dorion has actually sacrificed future room in the budget to put this roster together.

Hale, maybe you can answer this for me, as I was thinking about it lately. If Ottawa were to start with the kids, guy s like Form, Brann. Brown, etc...would they not be below the cap? Just trying to think of the endgame here. You need the vets to prop up the bottom line as far as cap issues...then waive them/trade them/sit them?

 

[GCK]

It's only 55M because of backloaded contracts. Lots of players with lower 2020/21 salaries than their cap hits:

Chabot's cap hit is 8M, 2020/21 salary is 7M
Murray's cap hit is 6.25M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Dadonov's cap hit is 5M, 2020/21 salary is 3.5M
White's cap hit is 4.75M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Brown's cap hit is 3.6M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Tierney's cap hit is 3.5M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Paul's cap hit is 1.35M, 2020/21 salary is 1.2M
Brown's cap hit is 1.2M, 2020/21 salary is 1M

7.35M in savings for 2020/21, at the cost of higher salaries in future years.

If you can believe it watching this year's team, Dorion has actually sacrificed future room in the budget to put this roster together.

We have just over 47M committed to 13 players next year. New contracts for Wolanin, Batherson, Tkachuk, L Brown, Hogberg ?, Zub, + a couple more ELCs + a couple vets. We’re likely going to be around 65M cash next year compared to 55.5M this year. Neither of these totals include the 2-3M in bonuses for the ELC players like Stuetzle

 

[coladin]

It's only 55M because of backloaded contracts. Lots of players with lower 2020/21 salaries than their cap hits:

Chabot's cap hit is 8M, 2020/21 salary is 7M
Murray's cap hit is 6.25M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Dadonov's cap hit is 5M, 2020/21 salary is 3.5M
White's cap hit is 4.75M, 2020/21 salary is 4M
Brown's cap hit is 3.6M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Tierney's cap hit is 3.5M, 2020/21 salary is 2.8M
Paul's cap hit is 1.35M, 2020/21 salary is 1.2M
Brown's cap hit is 1.2M, 2020/21 salary is 1M

7.35M in savings for 2020/21, at the cost of higher salaries in future years.

If you can believe it watching this year's team, Dorion has actually sacrificed future room in the budget to put this roster together.

In fairness, is this not a widely used tactic due to escrow being painfully high this year?

 

[Hale The Villain]

In fairness, is this not a widely used tactic due to escrow being painfully high this year?

It has been for some teams, but we've done this for years. Didn't just start with the pandemic.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Hale, maybe you can answer this for me, as I was thinking about it lately. If Ottawa were to start with the kids, guy s like Form, Brann. Brown, etc...would they not be below the cap? Just trying to think of the endgame here. You need the vets to prop up the bottom line as far as cap issues...then waive them/trade them/sit them?

Back loading contracts doesn't affect the cap hit. Just means we're spending less on salaries now, at the expense of higher salaries later.

For example, Matt Murray's 25M/4YR deal could have been 6.25M in cap hit and salary each year, but instead Dorion backloaded it and he makes 4M this year, 6M in 2021/22, 7M in 2022/23, 8M in 2023/24 - still adds up to 25M and a 6.25M cap hit, but we're getting him cheap now and spending elite #1 goalie money on him in the final years.

 

[Hale The Villain]

We have just over 47M committed to 13 players next year. New contracts for Wolanin, Batherson, Tkachuk, L Brown, Hogberg ?, Zub, + a couple more ELCs + a couple vets. We’re likely going to be around 65M cash next year compared to 55.5M this year. Neither of these totals include the 2-3M in bonuses for the ELC players like Stuetzle

If we have an internal budget at say 65M or so, that would mean 18M to fill about 9 spots.

Wouldn't be much of a problem if we had all our key positions filled, but if we want to get out of the basement we'll need to sign/trade for a top 2 center, top 4 defenseman and possibly a #1 goalie if Murray doesn't get his head out of his ass. That would make things extremely tight as far as fitting them in the budget and filling the remaining spots, especially since Tkachuk and Batherson will need new deals.

If Melnyk agrees to spend 70M+ on the team it won't prevent the team from making such moves, but I'll believe it when I see it.