GM Chuck Fletcher (Part 2)

[Beef Invictus]

If Hart is NHL ready, he can handle 50 games standing on his head.
Very efficient goalie, played almost 70 games a year from 17-19 years old.

I'm not worried physically so much as the mental stress; I'd rather he be eased in further, rather than Bobbing him. He is very efficient, so the risk of physical injury looks low.

 

[hatcher]

Raffl is a hard working player who gives it all every shift. He's one of the better bottom six players in the league. He should be right up your alley, and if he were on another team you'd love to have him on the Flyers.


Yet here you are wanting him gone. What a shock.

Raffl is garbage.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Raffl is garbage.

Objectively false. Just goes to further show you have a crippling case of "The Grass is Always Greener."

 

[Larry44]

Objectively false. Just goes to further show you have a crippling case of "The Grass is Always Greener."

I agree. Raffl is a guy who does his job. He's a good skater, has good size, follows through on his checks and shows the occasional bit of offensive skill. A perfect 4th liner that can play higher in the lineup and has a cheap contract. What's not to like?

 

[Dumpster Flyers]

Raffl is a hard working player who gives it all every shift. He's one of the better bottom six players in the league. He should be right up your alley, and if he were on another team you'd love to have him on the Flyers.


Yet here you are wanting him gone. What a shock.

Raffl is a black hole offensively. He's a replaceable 4th liner and has minuscule value to a playoff team.

Objectively false. Just goes to further show you have a crippling case of "The Grass is Always Greener."

How is it objectively false? He's on pace for under 20 points for an 82 game season.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Raffl is a black hole offensively. He's a replaceable 4th liner and has minuscule value to a playoff team.

How is it objectively false? He's on pace for under 20 points for an 82 game season.

Geez, I wonder if there is anything else he does quite well which doesn't show up on the scoresheet but is a valued bottom 6 trait? I wonder.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I agree. Raffl is a guy who does his job. He's a good skater, has good size, follows through on his checks and shows the occasional bit of offensive skill. A perfect 4th liner that can play higher in the lineup and has a cheap contract. What's not to like?

Exactly. If we trade Raffl off we'll just need to find a new Raffl. This isn't like Simmonds where you're looking at probable addition by subtraction.

 

[hatcher]

Objectively false. Just goes to further show you have a crippling case of "The Grass is Always Greener."

New players are coming in and I'll be happy until it's time not to be. The kids are stunted playing with this core and now it's over. Finally change is happening.

 

[Beef Invictus]

New players are coming in and I'll be happy until it's time not to be. The kids are stunted playing with this core and now it's over. Finally change is happening.

Nah. I'll believe you wont come to hate every Flyer when I see it.


I remember when you sang the same tune about getting JVR. That sure didn't last. I remember when Simmonds was good and he perfectly fit your description of the ideal player, and you hated him.

 

[Dumpster Flyers]

Geez, I wonder if there is anything else he does quite well which doesn't show up on the scoresheet but is a valued bottom 6 trait? I wonder.

That's an antiquated attitude. A "valued bottom 6 trait" simply means you're able to take an odd shift so real NHL players can rest without completely embarrassing yourself. Sometimes a 4th liner can add value on special teams, but Raffl doesn't even do that.

Exactly. If we trade Raffl off we'll just need to find a new Raffl. This isn't like Simmonds where you're looking at probable addition by subtraction.

I suggest you throw a rock in Moose Jaw and sign whoever it hits.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That's an antiquated attitude. A "valued bottom 6 trait" simply means you're able to take an odd shift so real NHL players can rest without completely embarrassing yourself. Sometimes a 4th liner can add value on special teams, but Raffl doesn't even do that.

I suggest you throw a rock in Moose Jaw and sign whoever it hits.

Now it's clear you really haven't been paying attention to him. He's the best PKer in the bottom six and it isn't remotely close, only Giroux and Couturier really do better than him among the forward group.

Whoever gets hit by that rock is destined to be closer to Lehtera than Raffl.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Raffl is garbage.

Disagree. He is fine as a bottom 6 forward.

 

[Dumpster Flyers]

Now it's clear you really haven't been paying attention to him. He's the best PKer in the bottom six and it isn't remotely close, only Giroux and Couturier really do better than him among the forward group.

Whoever gets hit by that rock is destined to be closer to Lehtera than Raffl.

He barely kills penalties on the 5th worst PK in the league. He's also a 4th liner on the worst team in the league. Honestly... why would anyone care about him at this point?

Disagree. He is fine as a bottom 6 forward.

Bottom 6 implies he's an adequate third liner, which he's not.

 

[TCTC]

Offensively Raffl is even more streaky than Simmonds. He usually has one good month per season and then he disappears again.
He's not a liability defensively but a few years ago we were talking about depth scoring and how we have to get rid of Bellemare because he doesn't score goals. Raffl has 2 goals this year. Every defenseman on the team except MacDonald has more goals than him.

 

[baudib1]

Raffl is on pace for 18.5 points/82 this year, which isn't amazing but better than anything Bellemare ever did here (12, 14, 8 points). He's also basically getting no good offensive shifts. His scoring at 5v5 has never been a problem for his usage.

That said, I'm ready to move on. Lindblom looks to be a better version of him, with more upside. Laughton and NAK can also fill most of his responsibilities, and we should have a whole roster of AHLers next year who can be Rafflesque. He's been a good player and worth his salary, but it's safe to say we got the best years of his career and there's not much upside left.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He barely kills penalties on the 5th worst PK in the league. He's also a 4th liner on the worst team in the league. Honestly... why would anyone care about him at this point?

Bottom 6 implies he's an adequate third liner, which he's not.

He's killing half a penalty a game which is pretty significant, and he's quite arguably underused in that role he outperforms all forwards no named Giroux or Couturier. Part of what has made the PK so bad is terrible roster choices like overplaying bad players and underplaying better players.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

He barely kills penalties on the 5th worst PK in the league. He's also a 4th liner on the worst team in the league. Honestly... why would anyone care about him at this point?

Bottom 6 implies he's an adequate third liner, which he's not.

Ok fine, as a 4th liner. He is a hard working player. I get that he is replaceable. But there is a difference between being a “garbage player” and replaceable

 

[Beef Invictus]

Let's not act like good 4th liners are easy to find. We've watched 7-8 years of Homer and Hextall employing the "Any Living Body Is Good" strategy and the results have mostly been terrible. Raffl is one of the successes in that regard. Quality does in fact matter, and Raffl isn't as easily replaceable as some people think. The guy isn't VDV.

 

[baudib1]

Let's not act like good 4th liners are easy to find. We've watched 7-8 years of Homer and Hextall employing the "Any Living Body Is Good" strategy and the results have mostly been terrible. Raffl is one of the successes in that regard. Quality does in fact matter, and Raffl isn't as easily replaceable as some people think. The guy isn't VDV.

For sure, but given where the farm system is right now, we shouldn't be icing below replacement level players like VdV or Lehtera for quite some time. If Raffl signs a 3-year, $9M deal with the Islanders or someone in the offseason and his spot goes to NAK, Rubtsov or Vorobyev, are you really going to complain?

 

[Beef Invictus]

For sure, but given where the farm system is right now, we shouldn't be icing below replacement level players like VdV or Lehtera for quite some time. If Raffl signs a 3-year, $9M deal with the Islanders or someone in the offseason and his spot goes to NAK, Rubtsov or Vorobyev, are you really going to complain?

3 mil a year? God no. If he wants to sign a reasonable deal then I have no issue with him taking a single spot on the 4th.

 

[hatcher]

Disagree. He is fine as a bottom 6 forward.

That's OK disagree.

 

[deadhead]

That's why Raffl has value, worse players were signing 2-4 year deals at $2-3M a year.
Which is why Weise also has trade value.
Even Folin, he's a reliable back of the roster #6/#7 who won't wow you but won't trash out the joint either.

Playoff teams that have an injury streak pick up these guys because 2-4 points at this time of the year could get you into the playoffs or into a better playoff slot, and if you have to play AHL types (imagine dressing Brennan or Palmqvist) that can cost you a game or so.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That's why Raffl has value, worse players were signing 2-4 year deals at $2-3M a year.
Which is why Weise also has trade value.
Even Folin, he's a reliable back of the roster #6/#7 who won't wow you but won't trash out the joint either.

Playoff teams that have an injury streak pick up these guys because 2-4 points at this time of the year could get you into the playoffs or into a better playoff slot, and if you have to play AHL types (imagine dressing Brennan or Palmqvist) that can cost you a game or so.

Glad to see that you're realizing these little things can add up to have large impact, finally. Previously you've said such differences don't matter while justifying the coach's roster decisions.

 

[baudib1]

$3M/year is about the going rate for good 4th liners in UFA. Reaves is making $2.7M, Grabner $3.3M (I know he was playing higher in the lineup this year). Lehtera got $2.7M.

 

[Beef Invictus]

$3M/year is about the going rate for good 4th liners in UFA. Reaves is making $2.7M, Grabner $3.3M (I know he was playing higher in the lineup this year). Lehtera got $2.7M.

Lehtera got 4.7 million; he wasn't expected to be a 4th liner by the Blues. Reaves contract is fine. Grabner was putting up 40 points as recently as 2017 so that ups his value in a way Raffl can't argue.