Gleason vs. Kulemin

[zoA]

Nobody is going to call it dirty because it WASN'T dirty. Kulemin knew exactly what he was doing when he decided to rabbit-punch Gleason in the face three times.

Look at the vid right around :10. Gleason's gloves come off more than a full second before he threw a punch, and during that second he had his head down. How was he supposed to know Kulemin would be stupid/chicken enough to try and abort the mission at that point?

Really? Listen, I get the whole Kulemin was throwing 'punches' with his gloves on thing, but saying how was Gleason supposed to know Kulemin wasn't secretly taking his gloves off and prepared to fight is just plain stupid. According to you he had plenty of time to I don't know, look at his opponent, who CLEARLY didn't want to fight. Let me guess though, "don't throw rabbit punches if you don't want to fight." That would be legit if every single play didn't throw their hands up during scrums, if a fight resulted from that every time, there would be 10 fights a game easy. Unless Gleason is a COMPLETE idiot, he knew Kulemin wasn't a fighter.

Kulemin shouldn't have put his hands up, just like no player should be throwing their hands in someone else's face if they're not prepared to back it up, but that doesn't mean it's not a very common occurrence. Gleason was wrong to throw a punch, he let his temper get out of hand, he made the mistake of throwing an un-gloved punch at someone who didn't want to fight, and who didn't have their gloves off. The onus is on Gleason to not punch someone who hasn't taken their gloves off. What Gleason did FAR outweighs Kulemin getting his hands up in a scrum. It doesn't deserve a suspension, but it was a boneheaded move by Gleason, and realistically I hope he has to answer the bell for it. Everyone is so quick to call Gleason justified in this, it's pathetic how skewed people are when it comes to the Leafs. In the heat of the moment, especially in hockey, players make mistakes, Gleason made one, so did Kulemin. With that said, I'd say jumping the gun and punching someone in the face who wasn't prepared to fight is much worse than getting your hands in someones face during a scrum. By all means though, keep justifying it, the moment it happens to another team, it will be great to see the hypocrisy exposed.

 

[SnowBlue]

Hard to know what happened in the scrum. However this caught my attention.

That would be people like forward Nikolai Kulemin of the Toronto Maple Leafs. But at the end of the first period last night at the RBC Center, there was a scrum in front of the Canes bench. During it, Kulemin threw a jab at Gleason.

"I could have dropped by gloves there, but I didn't," Gleason said.

Gleason took a few more jabs, then had had enough. He threw a punch of his own, leaving Kulemin bloodied. Gleason was given a fighting major and game misconduct; Kulemin was done for the night as the Canes won 6-4.

"I took one and I didn't (drop the gloves)," Gleason said. "Then I took two and I thought, 'Well, if you're going to keep punching me in the face, I don't know what else to do.' I have to protect myself. ... It's almost like a boxer getting hit in the face.

Read more: http://blogs.newsobserver.com/canes/...#ixzz1C4qSV3dB

The impression that I got form youtube was the Gleason was also thorwing gloved jabs at Kulemin. From the video it looked like he threw the first one. But since its just a small portion of the scrum you can't be sure. Is it the way the article is worded or is Gleason just being dishonest about his own gloved jabs? If he said the situation just escalated I would have found it much more beliavable.

 

[zoA]

Hard to know what happened in the scrum. However this caught my attention.



The impression that I got form youtube was the Gleason was also thorwing gloved jabs at Kulemin. From the video it looked like he threw the first one. But since its just a small portion of the scrum you can't be sure. Is it the way the article is worded or is Gleason just being dishonest about his own gloved jabs? If he said the situation just escalated I would have found it much more beliavable.

I think it's just the article, from all the other interviews with Gleason it seemed like he felt remorse for his actions, which would imply he knew he was in the wrong.

 

[What the Faulk]

Really? Listen, I get the whole Kulemin was throwing 'punches' with his gloves on thing, but saying how was Gleason supposed to know Kulemin wasn't secretly taking his gloves off and prepared to fight is just plain stupid. According to you he had plenty of time to I don't know, look at his opponent, who CLEARLY didn't want to fight. Let me guess though, "don't throw rabbit punches if you don't want to fight." That would be legit if every single play didn't throw their hands up during scrums, if a fight resulted from that every time, there would be 10 fights a game easy. Unless Gleason is a COMPLETE idiot, he knew Kulemin wasn't a fighter.

He CLEARLY didn't want to fight? Could have fooled me when he repeatedly kept punching Gleason in the face.

Hard to know what happened in the scrum. However this caught my attention.

The impression that I got form youtube was the Gleason was also thorwing gloved jabs at Kulemin. From the video it looked like he threw the first one. But since its just a small portion of the scrum you can't be sure. Is it the way the article is worded or is Gleason just being dishonest about his own gloved jabs? If he said the situation just escalated I would have found it much more beliavable.

If you watch the video the shows the whole altercation, which many of them do not, you can see Kulemin trying to instigate something with him by hitting him until Gleason has enough and fires back. Then they exchange punches until Gleason finishes it. His words match up with what actually happened, not just a video that misses the beginning.

I think it's just the article, from all the other interviews with Gleason it seemed like he felt remorse for his actions, which would imply he knew he was in the wrong.

He felt remorse because Kulemin got hurt, not because he thought he was in the wrong.

 

[zoA]

He CLEARLY didn't want to fight? Could have fooled me when he repeatedly kept punching Gleason in the face.



If you watch the video the shows the whole altercation, which many of them do not, you can see Kulemin trying to instigate something with him by hitting him until Gleason has enough and fires back. Then they exchange punches until Gleason finishes it. His words match up with what actually happened, not just a video that misses the beginning.



He felt remorse because Kulemin got hurt, not because he thought he was in the wrong.

Reading comprehension is obviously not your strong point. When Gleason pulled him out the scrum and dropped his gloves, which is what tarheel was talking about, you know, the person I was quoting, then yes, it was obvious Kulemin didn't want to fight. Context is wonderful, try paying attention to it next time instead of picking something and regurgitating stupidity like a 12 year old.

His words match up with his side of it. Gleason came into contact with Kulemin's face first, it wasn't an intentional jab, it was a shove that came up to high. That said, Kulemin took it as a hit to the face so he returned the favour. Then after Kulemin had hit him back, Gleason hit him in the face again, so Kulemin hit him back again. From Gleason's point of view, he wasn't the instigator, from Kulemin's point of view, he was. That said, standing up for yourself is one thing, punching someone in the face over what transpired is another. Considering Gleason recognizes Kulemin isn't a fighter, I'd think he felt remorse for throwing punches at an unwilling/unready opponent. Or according to you, he felt bad he punched him too hard? So what, he only felt bad cause his punch injured him? What the **** do you think caused the injury? It was his punch, it makes sense that he would regret the thing that caused the injury, use your head.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

A little thing called the NHL rulebook:

46.1 Fighting – A fight shall be deemed to have occurred when at least one player (or goalkeeper) punches or attempts to punch an opponent repeatedly or when two players wrestle in such a manner as to make it difficult for the Linesmen to intervene and separate the combatants.

The Referees are provided very wide latitude in the penalties with which they may impose under this rule. This is done intentionally to enable them to differentiate between the obvious degrees of responsibility of the participants either for starting the fighting or persisting in continuing the fighting. The discretion provided should be exercised realistically.

46.14 Major Penalty – A major penalty shall be imposed on any player who fights.

46.15 Match Penalty - A match penalty shall be assessed to a player who punches an unsuspecting opponent and causes an injury.

Seems pretty obvious the officials saw it the way the rest of the logical world did. One 5 minute major was assessed as officials found only 1 party punched (argue all you like, gloved jabs occur routinely after whistles and don't get 5 minute majors). They also found that the punch caused injury on an unsuspecting opponent.

Nope, not even close. Kulemin was (or should have been) far from unsuspecting.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Really? Listen, I get the whole Kulemin was throwing 'punches' with his gloves on thing, but saying how was Gleason supposed to know Kulemin wasn't secretly taking his gloves off and prepared to fight is just plain stupid. According to you he had plenty of time to I don't know, look at his opponent, who CLEARLY didn't want to fight.

Again, please refer to the replay and drop your team bias for a moment.

Gleason's gloves come off at :09 and he grabs Kulemin around the shoulders. At that point, he IS fighting. Want-to has nothing to do with it, the fight has begun. At :10, Kulemin takes a step back, causing Gleason to topple forward momentarily. Kulemin puts both his hands on the back of Gleason's head, Semin-bongo-style, as a glove flies past his face. At that point, there is NO QUESTION that fists are about to start flying.

And your demand is that Gleason is supposed to stand straight up from that position and look at his opponent?? Seriously? Why, so Kulemin can clock him in the face again?

Unless Gleason is a COMPLETE idiot, he knew Kulemin wasn't a fighter.

Unless Kulemin is a COMPLETE idiot, he knew Gleason was a fighter.

 

[SnowBlue]

If you watch the video the shows the whole altercation, which many of them do not, you can see Kulemin trying to instigate something with him by hitting him until Gleason has enough and fires back. Then they exchange punches until Gleason finishes it. His words match up with what actually happened, not just a video that misses the beginning.

If you read the article it makes it seem like he threw only one punch.


"I took one and I didn't (drop the gloves)," Gleason said. "Then I took two and I thought, 'Well, if you're going to keep punching me in the face, I don't know what else to do.' I have to protect myself. ... It's almost like a boxer getting hit in the face."

Gleason took a few more jabs, then had had enough. He threw a punch of his own, leaving Kulemin bloodied.

Read more: http://blogs.newsobserver.com/canes/gleason-i-have-to-protect-myself#ixzz1C57hzCPp


The fact that they were exchanging gloved jabs is entirely omitted, because it would not hold up his "I was defending myself excuse". According to him its only Kulemin who was throwing them at him until he had enough. Which I don't need to watch the extended version to see its not true. Because even in the smaller clip I can see him throwing jabs at Kulemin.

Where is the full version anyways?

 

[zoA]

Again, please refer to the replay and drop your team bias for a moment.

Gleason's gloves come off at :09 and he grabs Kulemin around the shoulders. At that point, he IS fighting. Want-to has nothing to do with it, the fight has begun. At :10, Kulemin takes a step back, causing Gleason to topple forward momentarily. Kulemin puts both his hands on the back of Gleason's head, Semin-bongo-style, as a glove flies past his face. At that point, there is NO QUESTION that fists are about to start flying.

And your demand is that Gleason is supposed to stand straight up from that position and look at his opponent?? Seriously? Why, so Kulemin can clock him in the face again?



Unless Kulemin is a COMPLETE idiot, he knew Gleason was a fighter.

At that point, GLEASON is fighting, NOT Kulemin. Gleason dropped his gloves and didn't bother to see if Kulemin dropped his. Want-to has nothing to do with it? Are you serious? So if a player grabs another player and drops his gloves, it is automatically a fight for both players? Glad to see the refs don't share your narrow sighted view of things. Sorry buddy but it takes two to tango, Gleason ignored that and starting throwing without caring if Kulemin was game or not. I'm sorry but if players can refrain from punching Avery in the face when he doesn't drop his gloves, and Avery can refrain from punching Armstrong, I'm sure Gleason can refrain from punching Kulemin. By all means though, keep acting like one player dropping his gloves automatically means both are deemed in a fight. Let me guess though, Kulemin's gloved 'punches', meant he was committed right?

Fact is Gleason threw punches in the heat of the moment without first checking if Kulemin was game. This is very much akin to what Tootoo has been called out on several times. You can argue till you're blue in the face that Kulemin entered into a fight by getting his hands in Gleason's face, the fact of the matter is that isn't the case, which is proven by the penalty's assessed. It's funny that you implore me to watch the replay without bias, yet you act as if Kulemin wasn't just trying to defend himself after Gleason dropped his gloves. Kulemin wasn't about to "clock" Gleason at any point after he dropped his gloves. It's alright though, the fact you have to try and bring in semin's bongo's is enough for me to see your opinion isn't worth much.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Let me guess though, Kulemin's gloved 'punches', meant he was committed right?

YES IT DOES.

If you are playing hockey, and some guy comes up and starts jabbing you in the face, and gets you bent over and has his hands on top of your head, would you say at that point he is fighting you?

More to the point, would you take even a second to drop your gloves and start throwing back? I hope not, if you're any kind of man.

 

[PB37]

At that point, GLEASON is fighting, NOT Kulemin. Gleason dropped his gloves and didn't bother to see if Kulemin dropped his. Want-to has nothing to do with it? Are you serious? So if a player grabs another player and drops his gloves, it is automatically a fight for both players? Glad to see the refs don't share your narrow sighted view of things. Sorry buddy but it takes two to tango, Gleason ignored that and starting throwing without caring if Kulemin was game or not. I'm sorry but if players can refrain from punching Avery in the face when he doesn't drop his gloves, and Avery can refrain from punching Armstrong, I'm sure Gleason can refrain from punching Kulemin. By all means though, keep acting like one player dropping his gloves automatically means both are deemed in a fight. Let me guess though, Kulemin's gloved 'punches', meant he was committed right?

Fact is Gleason threw punches in the heat of the moment without first checking if Kulemin was game. This is very much akin to what Tootoo has been called out on several times. You can argue till you're blue in the face that Kulemin entered into a fight by getting his hands in Gleason's face, the fact of the matter is that isn't the case, which is proven by the penalty's assessed. It's funny that you implore me to watch the replay without bias, yet you act as if Kulemin wasn't just trying to defend himself after Gleason dropped his gloves. Kulemin wasn't about to "clock" Gleason at any point after he dropped his gloves. It's alright though, the fact you have to try and bring in semin's bongo's is enough for me to see your opinion isn't worth much.

I don't think you get it.

Kulemin was engaged in the fight and should have been ready for it. He had plenty of time and it was pretty clear that he was participating in the escalation of the encounter.

I'll tell you what.. if Kulemin didn't get knocked down with that punch, he would have thrown down his gloves and starting punching back. That was a fight waiting to happen, except that Kulemin got the door slammed in his face as he was trying to come in. Tough luck kid, better luck next time. Gleason is a beast.

 

[Porn*]

I don't think you get it.

Kulemin was engaged in the fight and should have been ready for it. He had plenty of time and it was pretty clear that he was participating in the escalation of the encounter.

I'll tell you what.. if Kulemin didn't get knocked down with that punch, he would have thrown down his gloves and starting punching back. That was a fight waiting to happen, except that Kulemin got the door slammed in his face as he was trying to come in. Tough luck kid, better luck next time. Gleason is a beast.

wellwood could have been a beast hitting someone in the nose when they weren't fighting...

scrums happen ALL the time.. they don't always escalate into fights and in 99.9% of the time, fights occur when BOTH parties drop em'.

next time it'll end up being someone like orr or brown vs. staal/sutter with the same end result. fighter vs. non-fighter is a no brainer... gleason with a bone headed move, and the look on his face after seeing kulemin on the ice proves that he knows he was wrong... what he said after the fact was probably to save face.

 

[zoA]

YES IT DOES.

If you are playing hockey, and some guy comes up and starts jabbing you in the face, and gets you bent over and has his hands on top of your head, would you say at that point he is fighting you?

More to the point, would you take even a second to drop your gloves and start throwing back? I hope not, if you're any kind of man.

Oh that's cute, you're bringing bravado into this, keep it up, what's next, "this is old time hockey"? I'm an avid supporter of fighting in hockey and I'm plenty 'manly' thanks. However, stating that if one is a 'man' he'll punch someone without a second thought in this situation is childish and pathetic. I've alluded to the fact that I don't agree with players getting their hands in each others faces during scrums, but it happens, and it doesn't mean they can all go around punching each other in the face displaying their manliness.

As to you saying Kulemin came up and started jabbing him in the face. Like I explained in the other thread, when Gleason tried to push Kulemin back, before any 'jabs' were in play, he came into contact with Kulemin's face. It's pretty obvious the situation was that BOTH felt the other initiated the 'jabs' to the face. Kulemin felt the contact was a hit to his face, so he responded with one. Gleason never meant to initially make contact with his face, so when he was hit in the face back, he took it as Kulemin starting it. Kulemin never had Gleason bent over with his hands on his head, Kulemin flailed around trying to defend himself, his hands made contact with the top of Gleason's head because of momentum and for barely half a second.

The situation you're describing isn't what happened at all. What sort of reality do you live in where you saw Kulemin come in throw jabs, then grab Gleason head and push him down? It was a scrum, both thought the other started the jabs, Gleason took exception and went too far, punching Kulemin while he had his gloves on and wasn't about to fight. It's pretty simple, maybe I'm just not manly enough to see it your way though. We should arm wrestle or something.

 

[tarheelhockey]

next time it'll end up being someone like orr or brown vs. staal/sutter with the same end result.

Is this where I pull out the clips of Orr jumping people when they're not ready to fight?

 

[Porn*]

Is this where I pull out the clips of Orr jumping people when they're not ready to fight?

vs. fighters?
vs. non-fighters?

bottom line is... you don't throw barefist punches at someone still wearing gloves. It's called consent... I don't care what Orr does or doesn't do... when/if he pulls that **** i'd be equally critical of his actions as well.

 

[zoA]

Is this where I pull out the clips of Orr jumping people when they're not ready to fight?

I think you missed his point entirely if that's the conclusion you came to.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Oh that's cute, you're bringing bravado into this

No, I'm bringing some basic common sense into it. Someone punches you in the face, you punch back. That's life.

The situation you're describing isn't what happened at all. What sort of reality do you live in where you saw Kulemin come in throw jabs, then grab Gleason head and push him down?

AGAIN (since reading comprehension is obviously not YOUR strong point either), Gleason was in a position where a guy who had just punched him in the face had him bent over and had his hands on the back of Gleason's head. At that point, the gloves had already been off for a couple of seconds. What the holy hell was Kulemin expecting... what was he THINKING keeping his gloves on and flailing around like someone who has never seen a hockey fight?

The basic problem here is that Kulemin poked the bear and wasn't prepared to deal with it. Blame Gleason all you want, but Kulemin just lost any mirage of being a "power forward" if that is how he's going to approach the rougher aspects of the game.

 

[STX]

This was barely a fight and a Boston fan made a thread about it ? Hahah, typical. MacArthur/LaRose was a legit fight.

Anytime a fighting thread has a Cane in it, it is funny. I'd rather watch roller hockey than see a Cane fight.

 

[tarheelhockey]

vs. fighters?
vs. non-fighters?

bottom line is... you don't throw barefist punches at someone still wearing gloves. It's called consent... I don't care what Orr does or doesn't do... when/if he pulls that **** i'd be equally critical of his actions as well.

Highlighted the one you needed there. Over in the main board thread someone posted 3 different vids of him throwing on guys who still had their gloves on.

I think you missed his point entirely if that's the conclusion you came to.

The point itself is flawed. Leafs fans have their panties in a twist because Gleason didn't stop to check Kulemin's driver's license in the middle of an escalating fight. I don't care who the player is, if he's going to start throwing in someone's face he needs to be ready to fight.

What the hell is this league coming to where fans don't think it's necessary to fight after you throw a bunch of gloved punches?

 

[MasqueOfTheRedDeath*]

Kulemin didn't get a major. I think that says it all. Was it cheap? NO. Should Kulemin have been aware that he was going to get it? YES. Unfortunately Gleason was a little quick on the draw. No fight, just a funny clip of a guy getting hit. Yippie

 

[zoA]

No, I'm bringing some basic common sense into it. Someone punches you in the face, you punch back. That's life.




AGAIN (since reading comprehension is obviously not YOUR strong point either), Gleason was in a position where a guy who had just punched him in the face had him bent over and had his hands on the back of Gleason's head. At that point, the gloves had already been off for a couple of seconds. What the holy hell was Kulemin expecting... what was he THINKING keeping his gloves on and flailing around like someone who has never seen a hockey fight?

The basic problem here is that Kulemin poked the bear and wasn't prepared to deal with it. Blame Gleason all you want, but Kulemin just lost any mirage of being a "power forward" if that is how he's going to approach the rougher aspects of the game.

Ahhh so it's common sense you were referring to, my bad, I thought stating "if you're any kind of man" was bravado, my mistake, next time I'm reading your post I'll look at what you write and completely disregard it since it's not what you mean. That's life? Really? How you managed to completely take the entire thing out of context and reduce it to "you get punched you punch back" is pretty humorous.

 

[Porn*]

Highlighted the one you needed there. Over in the main board thread someone posted 3 different vids of him throwing on guys who still had their gloves on.



The point itself is flawed. Leafs fans have their panties in a twist because Gleason didn't stop to check Kulemin's driver's license in the middle of an escalating fight. I don't care who the player is, if he's going to start throwing in someone's face he needs to be ready to fight.

What the hell is this league coming to where fans don't think it's necessary to fight after you throw a bunch of gloved punches?

janssen
asham
shelley

three known, cheap shot fighters... all had it coming, all have a history...

kulemin fight history? 0 fights.

and fyi, with exception to shelley who got chased and ended up dropping the gloves.... all three had their gloves DOWN before the punches started...

 

[Karl Hungus]

Ouch, you feel for Kulemin but that's what happens when you poke the bear.

 

[tarheelhockey]

janssen
asham
shelley

three known, cheap shot fighters... all had it coming, all have a history...

So it's ok as long as you judge it to be ok?

Seriously?

BTW, perhaps the reason Kulemin has no fight history is because he has a habit of throwing gloved punches and then hiding behind a ref?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Ahhh so it's common sense you were referring to, my bad, I thought stating "if you're any kind of man" was bravado, my mistake, next time I'm reading your post I'll look at what you write and completely disregard it since it's not what you mean. That's life? Really? How you managed to completely take the entire thing out of context and reduce it to "you get punched you punch back" is pretty humorous.

Excellent point, you really turned the conversation with that well-stated point of view.